LDS Ordinances for the Dead and Catholic Records - New Thoughts

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The LDS Church and the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors and Their Descendants (The Gathering) have been at variance for many years regarding LDS “ordinances for the dead”, the so-called proxy rites of baptism, endowment, ordination, sealing, and second anointing. The topic has been much in the news of late, and a recent visit to the LDS web site www.lds.org yielded some surprises in the “commentary” section.

Marlin K Jensen and Lance B Wickman, senior members of The Seventy and General Authorities in LDS hierarchy, are co-signers of a letter dated 6 Nov 2008 addressed to The Gathering. Several key points of this letter are instrumental in understanding why it is that Catholic declarations from the Vatican of recent date were made, in relation to similar conspicuous name gathering drawn from Catholic ecclesiastic records.

(1) The letter states first of all “that we are not going to agree on matters of theology.” Quite true. Catholics give no credence to the posthumous acts, particularly baptism or marriage. The prayers of the LDS are welcomed for our beloved dead, of course, but with a proper understanding that such prayers are efficacious within the limits of the mercy of God.

(2) The letter says LDS are “pained by [the] perception” that such acts are disrespectful to the dead and to their families. It is not merely a perception. The acts are disrespectful. Even the LDS Church (Church Handbook of Instructions) acknowledges the existence of the right of precedence, which briefly put is the religious freedom of immediate relatives and significant others to enable, or to block, LDS ordinance work from taking place. The LDS Church has been eager to enable, and quite slow to block, name clearance. Names are supposed to be withheld from temple processing for 110 years after birth and 75 years after marriage automatically, and longer for cause. It is incumbent on the LDS Church to recognize that faith communities other than their own have the right, and the duty, to seek to block such processing indefinitely.

(3) The letter continues, “that pain can be intensified when some represent our doctrines and practices as something they are not.” Examples follow of how a temple rite challenges the “Jewishness” of a person “or visits upon him something that detracts from the significance of his life or the way he died.” The LDS leaders refute this, claiming “it’s just an offer.” What the LDS authors do not seem to grasp is that the very act of name use establishes a record, the International Genealogical Index (IGI), a source frequently consulted by genealogists and historians. When multiple submissions, particularly those in error, are made to IGI, it creates bogus records. Those records, viewed in isolation, are clear efforts to extend Mormonism beyond the grave. For members of the Catholic Church who find a recent relative on the IGI, with or without footnotes, it is a challenge to “Catholicness” in the same way.

(4) The letter discusses the “New Family Search” names gathering technology, saying it will be an improvement over the “Temple Ready” system inaugurated in the early 1990s. “TR” allowed undocumented information to be batch processed to the temple system via home computer and permitted extreme abuses of inaccuracy and repetition to occur. Only LDS members have access to this “New” system, so it cannot be effectively monitored by anyone outside the fold. (LDS demand access to Catholic records without restriction, but Catholics cannot have access to LDS records without restriction? :confused: ) Corollary: how long will the IGI itself will remain on public read (now available only in abridged form on the LDS web sites)? The LDS leaders recommend that lists of Holocaust victims be provided so that the names can be flagged as “unavailable for ordinances.” Would this last more than a generation?

It is a myth that the LDS provide temple rites only for their own families. Ever since the early 1960s, the microfilmed records held by the Genealogical Society of Utah have been evaluated for temples under a program called Controlled Extraction. This program takes all the names in a given source and scores them up for proxies, irrespective of whether any named person is related to the submitter or the extractor. With over a hundred operating temples in the world, this has been seen as necessary to keep them active.

The “New” system is not an option for Catholics, as it would become a medium for the Controlled Extractions of the future. If “New Family Search” is an indication that Controlled Extraction is about to be abandoned, it is welcome.

Catholics need a Memorandum of Understanding of our own to resolve outstanding issues regarding the harvesting of Catholic names for LDS temples. This is particularly necessary where the records of the Church are impounded as the vital records of the state.

Opinions? Please limit your response to these issues.
 
I don’t want my Catholic relatives baptized after their death. Found my grandfather was after he died. Glad I knew what a sincere Catholic he was, or I would have been confused about why they showed him as receiving their so-called ordinance. I also have two Uncles who were priests, and two Aunts who wer nuns that were so-called baptized.
I think the Mormons should not be given access to this information.
 
Proxy baptisms show absolutely no respect for the deceased individual.

If that person wanted to be lds, they would have either made it known, or done it themselves.

It simply shows that the mormons have no regard for the individual whatsoever. It’s like they’re saying, “We don’t care that you were baptized in another faith, and led a good christian life, we’re going to do this anyway, because we know best.” Hogwash!

Something I find interesting is how in May 1995, the mormons signed an agreement with UJA (United Jewish Appeal) that no baptisms of Holocaust victims would be done, and those that had been done would be removed from the IGI, but yet in 2001, Anne Frank was baptized by proxy. Even a simple temple worker should recognize that name!

Here is a link to the agreement, and to the list showin Anne Frank’s name.

avotaynu.com/mormons/MormonAgreement.pdf

mrm.org/topics/mormon-temple/prominent-people-mormons-have-baptized-proxy

I think I’ve heard this referred to as “lying for the Lord”. Sure, we’ll tell you anything you want to hear, but we’re going to keep doing it anyway.
 
What the heck? They baptized Benito Juarez?! And Leo Tolstoy?! What the heck is wrong with these people! :mad:

Mormons, it is not up to you whether or not people join your church. It is up to them. If they didn’t do it in life, you have NO RIGHT to do it for them in death. Respect the dead and the families of the dead. What you are doing is sick and wrong.
 
Proxy baptisms show absolutely no respect for the deceased individual.
That’s your complaint???

It shows no respect? How so?
If that person wanted to be lds, they would have either made it known, or done it themselves.
Er, not exactly. much proxy work is done for those that never had the chance to find out for themselves.
It simply shows that the mormons have no regard for the individual whatsoever. It’s like they’re saying, “We don’t care that you were baptized in another faith, and led a good christian life, we’re going to do this anyway, because we know best.” Hogwash!
I disagree - it’s more like saying that we have so much regard for the person that we are willing to go to all this time and trouble for that person.
 
What the heck? They baptized Benito Juarez?! And Leo Tolstoy?! What the heck is wrong with these people! :mad:
Nothing is wrong with me. What the heck is wrong with you? Bad pasta?
Mormons, it is not up to you whether or not people join your church. It is up to them.
What on earth makes you think that it is up to us whether they join the Church? Where did you get such a silly notion? Did you must make that up?
If they didn’t do it in life, you have NO RIGHT to do it for them in death. Respect the dead and the families of the dead. What you are doing is sick and wrong.
Blah - what you are posting is sick, wrong and full or bad pasta.

Take that.
 
That’s your complaint???

It shows no respect? How so?

Er, not exactly. much proxy work is done for those that never had the chance to find out for themselves.

I disagree - it’s more like saying that we have so much regard for the person that we are willing to go to all this time and trouble for that person.
It shows no respect for what that individual was when they were alive. No research is done regarding the indivual you are supposedly baptizing. It’s just being done from a big list, with no insight or regard for the individual you “think” you are baptizing.

Proxy work is being done for those that never had the chance to find out for themselves? Like all of the thousands of Jews that died in the holocuast, who died because of their faith? Do you really believe that?

How about Simon Wiesenthal, of the Renown Wisenthal Society that hunted down the perpetrators of the Holocaust, or Anne Frank, some “well meaning” mormon did a proxy on both of them.

I also like how you totally ignored the fact that the mormon church, in a signed agreement, stated they would stop such practices toward Jews in 1995, but have continued this practice well into the 21st century.

Another interesting thing is how the mormons want access to Catholic parish records, yet mormon records aren’t accessible.

Explain how Abraham Lincoln, who has no direct decendents, ( all of his childred died childless) could have a proxy baptism considering this statement from a mormon church representative.

“In the LDS statement, Olsen said, the church emphasized its policy that members should only submit names of their own ancestors for such baptisms”

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_/ai_n27129591

Call it what you will, but is nothing but the mormon church butting into other peoples business, where they don’t belong.
 
Maybe we should start baptizing dead Mormons!. Bad pasta!!
My family of priests and nuns didn’t have the chance to know about your teachings. In your dreams.

Sorry, but this is very hurtful to many of us. I have a very dear Mormon friend. She is 81 years old now, and her daughter does the stand in proxy for baptisms, and I told her to not even to think of having her stand in for me if I pass away. Besides, we Catholics won’t be in the same heaven as the Mormons according to them, so I wonder how they are going to find us.

Sorry, but this whole idea makes me steamed.
 
This is a silly concern and a non-issue. “Baptising” people by proxy, long after they are dead, is not effectual in any way except in the minds of Mormons. Even for Mormons, it is understood that the spirits of those for whom proxy baptisms are performed will have full free will in the afterlife to accept or reject that work. For Mormons, it is simply opening an opportunity that such souls would otherwise not have.

I think that given what Mormons are doing–in their own minds–baptism by proxy is an act of respect. An ineffectual gesture, IMHO, but an act of respect nonetheless.

Neither Catholics nor Jewish folks nor anyone else should give a flying flip who the Mormons ‘baptize’ by proxy.
 
So, what do they do? Send the spirits a telegram and ask them??? It is silly, yes, but they don’t care how it makes us feel.
Really insensitive to those of us who have lost loved ones.:😦
 
So, what do they do? Send the spirits a telegram and ask them??? It is silly, yes, but they don’t care how it makes us feel.
Really insensitive to those of us who have lost loved ones.:😦
And if Protestants “feel badly” because you pray for their dead ones in Purgatory, or nonbelievers “feel badly” that you pray for their conversion???

You have no right to “feel” anything about what Mormons do by proxy for those who are deceased. You haven’t any real right to even think about it, beyond the abstract fact of being aware it is one of their religious practices. No physical or emotional coercion is being exerted upon you nor upon the deceased by the pious-if-misguided act of proxy baptism.

And the understanding of LDS about the afterlife is that the non-LDS deceased are in a ‘Spirit Prison’ from which they can gain release at judgement day–IF they accept in Spirit Prison the LDS gospel and IF someone has performed on their behalf certain ‘ordinances’ including baptism, which one can ordinarily only receive in this lifetime. God, presumably will either know of Himself for whom such ordinances have and have not been performed–or He will have free access to the LDS Church genealogical records.

No one who receives proxy baptism is supposed to be counted as members of the LDS Church, so such practices do not inflate their memberships figures. One’s free will is fully preserved in the afterlife so that no one who is ‘baptised’ by proxy is in any way compelled to become Mormon in the afterlife. To the contrary, most Mormons understand that those who are to some degree culpable in their own right for not receiving the LDS gospel on Earth will find it correspondingly difficult to receive that gospel in Spirit Prison. No details are given as to why this is, but it is a commonly-expressed view.

If Mormon eschatology turned out to be true, proxy ordinances would be a lovely act of kindness, often extended to absolute strangers. I think I would be warmed by the love that such an act represents rather than ‘feeling badly’ that it is being performed.
 
Dear God,

If you aren’t sure who I am, please check with the mormon church records. Thanks.

Love,
Rebecca

PS: :rolleyes:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I did mean the line you cited as a bit of a jab at the limited nature of the LDS Deity. Thanks for underscoring it.
 
It shows no respect for what that individual was when they were alive. No research is done regarding the indivual you are supposedly baptizing. It’s just being done from a big list, with no insight or regard for the individual you “think” you are baptizing.
You appear clueless - which begs the question, why are you posting on something you know nothing about.

We don’t baptize the individual. A proxy ordinance is performed. A person who is now dead may choose, or not, to accept the proxy ordinance.

Apparently you are not Catholic and not aware of Catholic prayers for the dead whereby the faithful may make efficacious prayers and almsgiving for those that didn’t make their penance while alive.

Relax dear, you’re wound way to tight.
 
Snow, please do not be rude to others who post at Catholic Answers Forums. You have obviously offended Tonks40. You have no right to offend people of other faiths and cause them to be antagonistic towards the Church and the Mormon people.

For those who would like to know more about the problems which have occurred with respect to baptisms for the dead of Jewish victims of the Holocaust, the letter cited in the post at the beginning of this thread is a good place to start. That letter, and several other very informative documents can be found at www.lds.org/newsroom. The issue is no longer on the front page, so you will have to use the Search feature. “Jewish” seems to be a good search term.

The Church did enter a 1995 agreement to not baptize Holocaust victims (except in the very rare instance of a Church member’s ancestor and, even then, with special restrictions/requirements). However, because of the “open” nature of the Church’s genealogical computer system, the Church must rely upon voluntary compliance by millions of members. Apparently, just nine individuals either ignorantly or knowingly violated the Church’s agreement, but, in the age of computer-empowerment, that is all that was necessary to cause a major embarassment. The Church is striving to do better in this regard.
 
Posts like this makes me want to have nothing to do with the LDS. :mad:
Let’s see if I got you correctly Tonks. Some poster, ostensibly a Catholic, out of the blue and without provocation says that, says that Mormons or Mormon beliefs are sick and wrong. I in return say facetiously that the poster who said it is sick and wrong and full of bad pasta and so YOU, rather than castigate the poster who attacked Mormons in seriousness, lambast a Mormon for being facetious.

Riiiigggghhhttt. Got it.
 
Snow, please do not be rude to others who post at Catholic Answers Forums. You have obviously offended Tonks40. You have no right to offend people of other faiths and cause them to be antagonistic towards the Church and the Mormon people.
That’s a joke right? Right?

The poster to whom I responded call Mormons or Mormon beliefs sick and wrong and you whine that I facetiously said the same about the poster who, unprovoked, insulted The Church of Jesus Christ.

You can easily tell that my post was facetious because I added, for those that aren’t so perceptive that the poster was full of bad pasta.

Why didn’t you chastize the poster of the unprovoked attack?

Well?
 
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