LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

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Well, I guess we have to wrap up this thread, it has gone beyone 1,000 posts.👍
  1. I think it is fair to say after reviewing the posts, that the LDS do not need proof to believe in something, but rely on the teachings of Joseph Smith on the subject.
  2. Also, the LDS point to scriptural "warnings" about apostasy/dissension and claim they are proof that the apostasy actually happened. (SteveVH gets credit for that one!)
  3. I also think it is clear that the LDS have had their own apostasy in their beginnings and yet believe it was just the growing pains of an early church.
  4. I have come to the conclusion that the LDS cannot provide proof that the Holy Spirit abandoned the early Church and therefore kept the Apostles from passing on the authority.
Thanks for participating and I welcome any more comments (as long as the mods let us stay around!:D)
I must agree, and as my experience describes,if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints applied the same measure of evaluating what constitutes apostasy to the early Church that it applies to itself, there could have been no apostasy. Granted, for m this was a foregone conclusion, but I think a reasonable observer would have to conclude that the answers within this forum demonstrate that. I say this with the gravest concern for my LDS brethren, since I know how hard it is to really look at the other side of that tapestry.
 
Parker,

Problem is, as Lax clarified, is that the Mormon religion is depending on one person, not Christ. One person, a mortal, is not the foundation of Church within Christianity.

When you reject Christianity as true, and then turn to a man who lived completely far out and away from the event, almost 2,000 years later, maligning Christianity as apostate with a complete severance from the Christian people, rationalizing there were few Christians in the early times after the death of the apostles, when countless Christians were dying for Christ – as if their deaths meant nothing inferring because they were Eucharistic Christians

…and then going backwards re-writing our understanding and perspective of Sacred Scriptures, and creating new stories…copying the Catholic Church in communication form, using the word canon, priesthood, sacraments – from Latin ‘sacramentum’…sacred oath tied to ritual, etc. to anti-Catholic, Masonic like curse rituals, this is the kind of stuff that makes Mormonism perceived as a cult.

The Church is a social, relational foundation comprising of 12 apostles, not one controversial man. The apostles were men of ordinary life, earning a living in precarious times, having families to support.

You base your faith on one man whose credibility and integrity was always being rightfully questioned in his community, you are on shakey ground, you are putting too much weight into Joseph Smith’s ideas and experiences without any challenge.

The Apostles suffered rebukes, admonishments, directions when coming to know the Lord, and then most of them suffered martyrdom.

Joseph Smith was never rebuked by Christ or admonished by Him, nor was he ever clarified by the Lord to help him understand what was being taught to him.

Christ is Himself the Light of the world…

Joseph Smith put on glasses to understand scrolls. He didn’t follow the exhortations by the apostles and St. Paul ‘to put on Christ’, to follow his elders for his revelation. Instead he told this story how he was told to put on glasses to read the Egyptian scrolls/plates, that were later decoded…instructions to bury the dead.

Egypt has been the symbol of exile, slavery, and apostasy. It used to be a heavily populated country, and most Christians apostasized to Islam rather than face death. The Copts are public witness to the world in what they endure. 85% of the Egyptian Muslims believe that if a Muslim wants to leave Islam, they deserve to die. Egyptian hieroglyphics contained countless images of serpents. The Masonic temples are full of Egyptian symbolism; they use the Turkish crescent moon, and the Turks destroyed Constantinople and overtook their main church turning into an Islam site.

Why would you even want to believe in anything from Christ found in ancient Egypt???

These ‘instructions’ to bury the dead, I see, are a symbolic and spiritual warning not to follow Joseph Smith, because his ideas are fraudulent, and lead to a spiritual death.

The Eucharist comes from the Vine, the Bread of Life.

Do you want to believe in a single, controversial man who was never challenged, who said he had to put on glasses to see the light of Christ…to become a spiritual mummy…?..

Or would you prefer to be in the company of – ordinary people, approach ordinary bread and wine,–that is transformed by priests of Christ in the order of Melchizedek, to become Manna from Heaven, the Bread of Life?

He who attempts to grow in perfection and spirituality by himself with no challenge will never achieve it. That is because such a man is following his own perceptions, his flesh and self -will…and these are what lead us to sin, to death.

A man who follows his own desires that are not challenged, will never achieve perfection.

Instead, in the Christian faith, we must die to ourselves daily, and put on Christ, live in His light and follow the Holy Spirit in humility.

What do you chose, The Bread of Life, the Eucharist – the fulfillment of Judeo Christianity …

or finding a new religion in Egyptian scrolls outside Judeo Christian salvation, Egypt being the symbol of exile and slavery?..where you can’t challenge or question to seek the truth?..
 
As for all your other questions, I don’t think I can help you work through any of the issues that seem to be so much on your mind.
I do not have any issues to work through, I knew when the Lord touched me in that Mass, and as your Book of Enos says, “I knew God could not lie. Wherefore my guilt was swept away.”

The basic issue seemed so obvious to me when my eyes were opened, and I take no credit for that myself. God threw a line in and this fish swallowed it Hook, Line and Sinker (HLS Club thread). I was fortunate to have developed a mind frame over a couple of decades that allowed me to experience new religious cultures without evaluating them based on preconceptions of my own.

I cannot express how much my heart goes out for my LDS brethren, family members, former colleagues. They do not even realize that if they grew up LDS they have not been baptized. I can only hope that God allows the baptism of desire to cover those who have such strong faith and precious souls, but whose culture has not allowed them to take a close look at the other side of the tapestry.

That is what I say on my ground. On LDS ground, if asked I will not mince words about it. Otherwise, I just say that I have come to realize that the Purpose of Life is not to achieve the Celestial Kingdom. It is to learn our place. I have learned mine. I am not a good enough person to be a Mormon, and I admire those who believe they are.
 
Parker,

Problem is, as Lax clarified, is that the Mormon religion is depending on one person, not Christ. …
Kathleen Gee,

The long and short of it is that the Mormon religion, as I have been showing in every comment I have made, is focused and centered on the living Christ, the Good Shepherd.

Your posts show a continuous focus on something that has replaced Him, and is not Him–is not the Good Shepherd who lives and guides. But you could be, if you would choose to be so. However, it means a huge change in focus, and I think it appears to be well nigh impossible to make such a change given the challenge of overcoming the barriers to such a change.

So, a wish of peace and a hope for the leadership in your life of the living Christ by allowing it to be so through a personal choice.
 
Lax16,

What I have learned from this thread, among other things, is that many Catholics do not trust that the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit can be a guide in the lives of individual people, and thus don’t trust that the idea of “proof” coming through the sure guide that the Holy Ghost or Comforter was promised to be can possibly be true.
I am not surprised you would make another judgment call on the Catholics posting here. It is what you do - the Early Christians didn’t trust the Holy Spirit to guide their lives and neither do Catholics today. No proof, only judgments.
Because it is just that, a judgment of others, it is only your opinion. It is a common complaint among non-LDS (and current LDS) that Mormons are judgmental and I can see it for myself.
This would be why the insistence on historical evidence seems to me to be like asking God to take away the free will choice of people while yet the Savior taught that the Comforter was the sure guide to truth, and to trust that sure guide. Thus they are looking for His house to be divided against itself, by teaching one thing but expecting people to rely on exactly the opposite. He simply wouldn’t do that.
We have historical evidence which is why we insist you provide it, too. In the Bible, Jesus states that He would stay with His Church and it would not fall under the many attempts to destroy it. Martyrs suffered horrific deaths to defend it. The Early Church Fathers fought against heretics.
Catholics are united in one universal Church and hope that others will believe His promise and work together towards a common goal.
Mormons are the ones trying to break apart what God has established with His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit beginning with the apostles chosen by Jesus Christ.
To say otherwise is honestly, quite shocking. And, like I have said before, is bearing false witness.

I for one have witnessed the Holy Spirit in my life on a daily basis.
I am sure the posters here would have similar experiences to share.
 
There have been 1015 posts on this one thread which deals, basically, with the “Great Apostasy”, the one legged stool upon which rests the legitimacy of the foundation of the Mormon faith. This is but one of more than a few threads that have dealt with this subject. I have yet to see any evidence, much less convincing evidence, of the truth of this claim.

Having said that, I want to thank all of the Mormons who have posted here and elsewhere on this forum. One thing you do not lack is courage. Thanks for putting up with those of us who have been short with you or down right uncharitable. Your presence here is greatly appreciated. We could not have these conversations without you and I have learned a great deal. Thank you.
 
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