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Karin
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by jewish law*…An unborn child has the status of “potential human life” until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother*
Valke, how soon after conception were you alive?
jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion
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jewfaq.org/sex.htm#Abortion
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Valke2
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I belive that was an example used on a prior thread. Or remove the tube, maybe.
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Eden
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The fact that most rabbis do not justify abortion for birth defects, does not detract from the fact that the law is open to interpretation by individual rabbis. Some, although not most, rabbis can and do allow for the abortion of unborn children with Down Syndrome. Again, who is any rabbi to decide that a child who will be mentally slower is not worthy of life?
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Karin
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good thing (very good thing becuase I like you Valke2) your mom did not have a mental break down she may of aborted you and that would of been ok under jewish law.
many woman have chosen life for their child over their own.
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Eden
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So, you were not alive until most of your body had emerged? When your heart was beating and you were sucking your fingers and grabbing your toes, going through cycles of sleep and activity, you were not really alive? You only became alive when your head emerged? That may be Jewish law, but it is certainly not an accurate teaching.
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Karin
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Hmm…Eden…I agree with you…I am not jewish…I answered the question that was directed towards Valke2…sorry for the confusion.
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Valke2
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It is not the law that is open to interpetation but the decsion on the degree of harm to the mother. ANd yes, Jewish law is not as clear cut as Catholic doctrine in this area. But none of this addresses my question. You’ve posted perfectly reasonable explanations as to why you believe the mother’s life does not take precedance over the babies. But you haven’t explained why to give preference to the mother is immoral.
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Eden
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My mother is Catholic and she is the one that taught me what the Church teaches about abortion in the case of a threat to a mother’s life. This discussion first came up when I was an adolescent and I remember it clearly. I am so grateful to God that we were never in this danger, but I know what my mother believes and the decision she would have made. My mother has always put me first before her own needs. Isn’t that what a real mother does?
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Karin
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becuase you are choosing one life over another/you think one life has more value than another life…that is morally wrong!
The Church says that human life begins when the woman’s egg is fertilised by a male sperm. From that moment a unique life begins, independent of the life of the mother and of the father. The features which distinguish us from our parents - the colour of our eyes, the shape of our face, etc. - are all laid down in the “genetic code” that comes into existence then. Each new life that begins at this point is not a potential human being but a human being with potential. No-one can point to the twelfth day or the fourth week or any other time and say, “This is when I began being me.” Birth is a stage in life and the process of life begins at conception…
These individuals include the unborn, who have their own intrinsic value. They also have rights which cannot be taken away from them. One such right is the right to life.
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognised and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by the society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the persons by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life … from the moment of conception until death."
64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:kT3Hw9y0p3kJ:www.catholic-ew.org.uk/faith/living/abortion.htm+Catholic+and+abortion&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
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perez639
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Valke2
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I didn’t say that you are not alive. I said you don’t have the same rights as the mother in certain situations.
Now, if you were a fetus and your birth was going to kill you mother, would you choose to be born at the expense of her life?
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Valke2
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Karin
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that is the difference Valke2…we say that all life has the same right…the right to live/life.
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Eden
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And a baby with Down Syndrome is a danger to a mother’s life how? How is a baby conceived by rape or incest a threat to the mother’s life? Like I said, it’s a slippery slope when the decision of who lives and who dies is left to the judgment of a rabbi.
It is very rare in today’s day and age for a mother’s life to be in danger from her baby during pregnancy. So, this is a very rare instance. But I remember a case in which a woman found out that she had breast cancer while pregnant. She decided not to take chemotherapy treatment because doing so would chemically kill her baby. And she was not willing to have her perfectly healthy baby die by abortion so she could get chemotherapy. By making that decision, she knew the cancer would grow and be too advanced by the time her child was born. She gave birth and within months was dead from cancer. But her child is a blessing to all. And a ray of hope as well. He’s old enough to understand the sacrifice his mom made so that he could live. Do you see the difference here? The mother died by cancer. The baby did not die by abortion.
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Eden
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How would I or any infant be in a position to “choose”? Looking at this from the perspective of being a mother myself, I would choose to sacrifice my life so that my children could live. Yes, absolutely I would.
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st_lucy
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IT is not ones choice. THis is were the slipper slope begains. The child does not have the choice to end his life nor does the mother. The idea that we have the choice to choose when to live and when to die is not ours to take.
On the same note a mother cannot chose to kill her child because her life is at stake. This notion is the same as killing someone because you might be dying of cancer. It doesn’t make sense.
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Valke2
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That answers what your mother would do. I asked what you would do if you had the choice to spare your mother’s life or be born.
What if your birth would likely result in both the death of your mother and yourself. Would you choose for her to go through with the pregnancy?
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Valke2
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What does that have to do with cancer? A more apt metaphor would be kililng in self defense. THe fetus is posing a direct threat to the life of the mother. The mother’s life takes precedence. To allow the mother to die would be immoral. It saddens me that Catholics don’t see this. I’ll pray for you.
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perez639
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Here’s a thought… if a pregnant mother was diagnosed with cancer, an advanced stage, her accepting treatment may cause her “fetus” to die. Now for you Valke, this developing fetus should most certainly die in order to save the mother. Simply because the “fetus” is not a child until it is born. However, I KNOW for certain that this “fetus” is a child. From conception, using those nine months to grow so that he/she may breathe on their own, with a whole life to live!!! If i were this pregnant mother… how could I take that away from them, cause death to them for my own sake. It would be selfish of me.
Peace Be with You all,
Regis University Student
Peace Be with You all,
Regis University Student
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Valke2
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That’s a valid belief. As is the belief that the mother should accept the treatment in order to save her life. In fact, if I understand the Church’s teaching on this, a Catholic women would be permitted to accept treatment even though it would result in killing the fetus, because that result is not intended.
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