LDS Question - Are Jesus and Lucifer brothers?

[Xavierlives]

Ensign, Dec. 1980, p5
On the trip he would suffer hardships, sand storms, fatigue, new food, new customs, a new and strange world. The trip to Nazareth was an even longer and more arduous journey, this to avoid again a heartless ruler. His trials were continuous. Perhaps his brother, Lucifer, had heard him say when he was still but a lad of twelve: “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?” (Luke 2:49).

Ensign, Jun 1986, p25
On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)

Although the LDS I heard from on this forum want to distance themselves from publications like The Ensign and others I am left wondering: is it Mormon doctrine that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

 

[Xavierlives]

How is this trolling Diana? I am asking a valid question about Mormonism.

 

[ParkerD]

How is this trolling Diana? I am asking a valid question about Mormonism.

Hi, Xavierlives,
Reluctantly, I’ll attempt to answer your question in enough detail to hopefully suffice.

First, I will point out for the benefit of others who may read this, that I looked at the 2009 Gospel Principles manual that will be the basis of Melchizedek Priesthood and Relief Society lessons for the next two years, and noticed that a sentence that had been in the earlier manual was taken out, regarding this specific issue–which reflects a move to be more aligned with the scriptures since those are the primary basis for doctrinal knowledge and understanding in the LDS church. The members are encouraged repeatedly to “search the scriptures” and use them as the doctrinal foundation for their beliefs and study.

Christ was the FirstBorn in pre-mortal life, meaning He was the supreme intelligence among all the intelligences having to do with our Universe, and the first one chosen by God the Father to bring forth as a spirit Son. Because He was supremely gifted with Light and Love and Faith, Christ was perfect in pre-mortal life, and desired the will of the Father as well as had the power of faith necessary to command and organize matter and energy. Christ was the Word who was “in the beginning with God”. (See John). “All things were made by Him.”

In a way I can’t understand except for seeing the effects of pride and arrogance and a rebellious spirit on people in this world, Lucifer who had been an angel of light, a “son of the morning”, rebelled against the plan of Heavenly Father when the Father chose Christ to be the Savior during a pre-mortal council in Heaven. Lucifer wanted God’s power as well as the adulation of the other spirits whom God had brought forth into the condition of pre-mortal life as spirits. He also seems to have been jealous of Christ’s role.

Since Christ was the only perfect spirit within that realm, it seems inappropriate to describe Him as an Elder Brother without at the same time saying that He was more than a brother–He was Alpha and Omega, the Creator who was perfectly willing to do the Father’s will and perfectly able to volunteer to be our Savior. Lucifer had none of those qualities. I don’t consider him a “brother” of any of us. As far as I’m concerned, he was a self-willed spirit and lost any sense of brotherhood with any other spirit–he wanted to dominate, to force, to destroy agency and destroy the plan of God and gain false authority and false adulation in the process. When he rebelled and was cast out of Heaven, he quickly tried to influence Heavenly Father’s plan by attempting to deceive Eve, but in the process introduced the kind of opposition that would actually benefit humankind because of the need to be able to choose for themselves among conditions that are less than optimum and that allow sinful choices, to learn and grow by making those choices yet still being able to repent and change.

 

[dianaiad]

How is this trolling Diana? I am asking a valid question about Mormonism.

Did I say you were trolling, Xavier?

As you will notice, Parker answered your question here, and I answered it else where.

 

[Marie5890]

Although the LDS I heard from on this forum want to distance themselves from publications like The Ensign and others I am left wondering: is it Mormon doctrine that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

Yes.

Lucifer is considered a spirit brother of all humans. So is Jesus.

All are spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, Jesus (known pre-mortally as Jehovah) being the first born of ALL spirit children, and the only one of begotten of Heavenly Father in the flesh with Mary.

Cutting thru all of “red tape”…Lucifer and Jesus are indeed brothers according to Mormon belief

 

[dianaiad]

Yes.

Lucifer is considered a spirit brother of all humans. So is Jesus.

All are spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, Jesus (known pre-mortally as Jehovah) being the first born of ALL spirit children, and the only one of begotten of Heavenly Father in the flesh with Mary.

Cutting thru all of “red tape”…Lucifer and Jesus are indeed brothers according to Mormon belief

Well, you were considerably more succinct than I was!

 

[ParkerD]

Yes.

Lucifer is considered a spirit brother of all humans. So is Jesus.

All are spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, Jesus (known pre-mortally as Jehovah) being the first born of ALL spirit children, and the only one of begotten of Heavenly Father in the flesh with Mary.

Cutting thru all of “red tape”…Lucifer and Jesus are indeed brothers according to Mormon belief

Marie5890,
The “red tape” is what is pertinent to the question. By cutting through the “red tape”, one avoids the context and thus prevails with a way to keep people from really thinking about the subject, but clearly that is your purpose–let people stop thinking since you have done the thinking and made your decision and hope they will follow your choice.

Others have quite as logical as decision-making as has been yours. Also, people can think for themselves, but having a more thorough basis within a context of such a question, they have the adequacy to make an intelligent judgement about it rather than a trite arrival at an uninformed position through a non-contextual answer.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie5890,
The “red tape” is what is pertinent to the question. By cutting through the “red tape”, one avoids the context and thus prevails with a way to keep people from really thinking about the subject, but clearly that is your purpose–let people stop thinking since you have done the thinking and made your decision and hope they will follow your choice.

Others have quite as logical as decision-making as has been yours. Also, people can think for themselves, but having a more thorough basis within a context of such a question, they have the adequacy to make an intelligent judgement about it rather than a trite arrival at an uninformed position through a non-contextual answer.

I understand your point and there certainly is validity to it.

The end answer is the same, however.

If someone asked me “Do Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers” I am thinking they are asking more for a “yes” or “no” answer and not a protracted explanation.

However, that explanation is important and adds to the context of that very bigger picture of the LDS view. That is valid.

Sometimes Mormons do need to explain the meat rather than just giving the milk when certain questions are asked.

 

[Xavierlives]

Hi, Xavierlives,
Reluctantly, I’ll attempt to answer your question in enough detail to hopefully suffice.

First, I will point out for the benefit of others who may read this, that I looked at the 2009 Gospel Principles manual that will be the basis of Melchizedek Priesthood and Relief Society lessons for the next two years, and noticed that a sentence that had been in the earlier manual was taken out, regarding this specific issue–which reflects a move to be more aligned with the scriptures since those are the primary basis for doctrinal knowledge and understanding in the LDS church. The members are encouraged repeatedly to “search the scriptures” and use them as the doctrinal foundation for their beliefs and study.

Christ was the FirstBorn in pre-mortal life, meaning He was the supreme intelligence among all the intelligences having to do with our Universe, and the first one chosen by God the Father to bring forth as a spirit Son. Because He was supremely gifted with Light and Love and Faith, Christ was perfect in pre-mortal life, and desired the will of the Father as well as had the power of faith necessary to command and organize matter and energy. Christ was the Word who was “in the beginning with God”. (See John). “All things were made by Him.”

In a way I can’t understand except for seeing the effects of pride and arrogance and a rebellious spirit on people in this world, Lucifer who had been an angel of light, a “son of the morning”, rebelled against the plan of Heavenly Father when the Father chose Christ to be the Savior during a pre-mortal council in Heaven. Lucifer wanted God’s power as well as the adulation of the other spirits whom God had brought forth into the condition of pre-mortal life as spirits. He also seems to have been jealous of Christ’s role.

Since Christ was the only perfect spirit within that realm, it seems inappropriate to describe Him as an Elder Brother without at the same time saying that He was more than a brother–He was Alpha and Omega, the Creator who was perfectly willing to do the Father’s will and perfectly able to volunteer to be our Savior. Lucifer had none of those qualities. I don’t consider him a “brother” of any of us. As far as I’m concerned, he was a self-willed spirit and lost any sense of brotherhood with any other spirit–he wanted to dominate, to force, to destroy agency and destroy the plan of God and gain false authority and false adulation in the process. When he rebelled and was cast out of Heaven, he quickly tried to influence Heavenly Father’s plan by attempting to deceive Eve, but in the process introduced the kind of opposition that would actually benefit humankind because of the need to be able to choose for themselves among conditions that are less than optimum and that allow sinful choices, to learn and grow by making those choices yet still being able to repent and change.

Questions:

1. So the brotherhood is more of a spiritual connectiveness? Because the next issue was Lucifer’s angel (if Jesus is God, how is Lucifer not considered a god, kind of question).
2. It seems that Lucifer knows his place in the Bible, especially when talking to Jesus, but it doesn’t seem like they have history. Is this history in the BOM?
3. Did Jesus lose his knowledge of the past (I think this is something the Mormons believe everybody experiences).
4. If this is the case, wouldn’t Lucifer know Jesus, but not Jesus knowing Lucifer?

 

[Xavierlives]

Did I say you were trolling, Xavier?

As you will notice, Parker answered your question here, and I answered it else where.

You never said I was personally trolling but you sure said there are people trolling. I can’t say why you feel that way because I have never been in your Mormon shoes, but I think I have valid questions. I have notes from every I have talked with a missionary and then I have about 20 questions I’ve wanted to ask. Until this forum, I haven’t had a place to ask (because the Mormons won’t visit my house anymore).

 

[dianaiad]

I understand your point and there certainly is validity to it.

The end answer is the same, however.

If someone asked me “Do Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers” I am thinking they are asking more for a “yes” or “no” answer and not a protracted explanation.

However, that explanation is important and adds to the context of that very bigger picture of the LDS view. That is valid.

Sometimes Mormons do need to explain the meat rather than just giving the milk when certain questions are asked.

Marie, this particular question is a great example of people who don’t WANT the ‘meat.’ All they want is the ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer so that they can either (with the ‘yes’) answer, get their supermarket tabloid thrills out of it, or a ‘no’ answer so that they can call us liars. Nobody is really interested in the ‘meat’ behind the ‘yes.’ answer. When we explain it, we are accused of waffling, or evading, or obfuscating, or…pick a word.

But as you are aware…and have just given evidence of…the reasoning behind the ‘yes’ answer is rather important. In fact, the reason behind it is a great deal more important than the thing itself, because the reason we believe Jesus and Satan are brothers (in a very important, if hardly unique, way) is far more important–and very different from what those who ask are expecting.

I know this because about the second time I was 'accused" of believing this (and it is always couched as some aghast accusation, as if they have unearthed a deep, dark secret deliberately kept hidden from everybody) I asked where they heard it, and in what context. She told me that she had read it in a pamphlet comparing Mormon beliefs and ‘Christian’ beliefs.

Now really; if someone knows our doctrines well enough to say that we believe Jesus and Satan are brothers, wouldn’t you think that they would ALSO know WHY, and what that relationship actually IS? Wouldn’t you think that this would be more important a difference to explore? Because, quite frankly, it is. At least it seemed so to me the first time I heard that mainstream Christians believed that angels, cherubim, seraphim and others were actually different creations, and that people were no more than pots. That revelation threw me for a complete loop. I felt like asking this woman…Good grief…and you DON"T??

 

[dianaiad]

You never said I was personally trolling but you sure said there are people trolling.

There are. Believe me, Xavier. That doesn’t mean you are, y’know. When I catch you trolling, I will call you on it.

I can’t say why you feel that way because I have never been in your Mormon shoes, but I think I have valid questions. I have notes from every I have talked with a missionary and then I have about 20 questions I’ve wanted to ask. Until this forum, I haven’t had a place to ask (because the Mormons won’t visit my house anymore).

So ask.

The Troll I commented on wasn’t you, and you will notice that he (she?) never did come out and actually ask a question.

 

[Xavierlives]

Marie, this particular question is a great example of people who don’t WANT the ‘meat.’ All they want is the ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer so that they can either (with the ‘yes’) answer, get their supermarket tabloid thrills out of it, or a ‘no’ answer so that they can call us liars. Nobody is really interested in the ‘meat’ behind the ‘yes.’ answer. When we explain it, we are accused of waffling, or evading, or obfuscating, or…pick a word.

I think the request for more information about the issue is implicit in the question. The quotes from the Ensign in the OP were there answering the question already. Yes, was the answer before you posted.

But as you are aware…and have just given evidence of…the reasoning behind the ‘yes’ answer is rather important. In fact, the reason behind it is a great deal more important than the thing itself, because the reason we believe Jesus and Satan are brothers (in a very important, if hardly unique, way) is far more important–and very different from what those who ask are expecting.

I know this because about the second time I was 'accused" of believing this (and it is always couched as some aghast accusation, as if they have unearthed a deep, dark secret deliberately kept hidden from everybody) I asked where they heard it, and in what context. She told me that she had read it in a pamphlet comparing Mormon beliefs and ‘Christian’ beliefs.

I honestly think the problem is, you constantly think you have to be on the defensive. People aren’t attacking (at least I’m not). I’m just reading commentary, LDS text, notes and seeking clarification. I am not making any claim that they are new, or enlightening, or damning, I’m just trying to understand.

Now really; if someone knows our doctrines well enough to say that we believe Jesus and Satan are brothers, wouldn’t you think that they would ALSO know WHY, and what that relationship actually IS? Wouldn’t you think that this would be more important a difference to explore? Because, quite frankly, it is. At least it seemed so to me the first time I heard that mainstream Christians believed that angels, cherubim, seraphim and others were actually different creations, and that people were no more than pots. That revelation threw me for a complete loop. I felt like asking this woman…Good grief…and you DON"T??

Now who is being abrasive? I don’t know your doctrines. I go to the LDS site. I find some text and I start reading. I find questions and I ask

 

[ParkerD]

Questions:

1. So the brotherhood is more of a spiritual connectiveness? Because the next issue was Lucifer’s angel (if Jesus is God, how is Lucifer not considered a god, kind of question).
2. It seems that Lucifer “knows his place” in the Bible, especially when talking to Jesus, but it doesn’t seem like they have history. Is this “history” in the BOM?
3. Did Jesus lose his knowledge of the past (I think this is something the Mormons believe everybody experiences).
4. If this is the case, wouldn’t Lucifer know Jesus, but not Jesus knowing Lucifer?

Xavierlives,
Greetings!

1. Yes. Lucifer had a level of authority as an “angel of light”, but rebelled and was thus the total antithesis of what is represented by God’s Love, Light, love of truth, acting by faith to exercise power in the Universe while completely allowing agency, omniscience, and omnipotence. So Lucifer was never anything remotely like a “god”, but tried to usurp power by destroying agency and by deceiving all the spirits who would listen to his cunning deception.
2. Not in the Book of Mormon. The passages that tell about Lucifer and Christ in the pre-mortal council in Heaven, and also the War in Heaven, are in Moses 4:1-4, Abraham 3:20-end (both in the Pearl of Great Price), Doctrine and Covenants 29:34, Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12.
3. Yes, but He also was the most supreme intelligence ever to have come to this mortal world, and learned so quickly through reading the Prophets, observing the world and the people around Him, and receiving revelation as He asked questions through prayer, that He was no doubt the most knowledgeable Person on earth by the age of twelve in terms of spiritual knowledge and understanding.
4. He would have begun life that way, but as noted in #3 He would have progressed in understanding by reading (probably including the Book of Moses as it is recorded in what Joseph Smith was inspired to restore as Moses’ words) and by asking questions and receiving revelation through the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 14 could have been a springboard to ask questions in prayer, to gain more insights into how Lucifer rebelled. I have no doubt that Christ “taught with authority” because He taught using revealed knowledge.

Peace to you, Xavierlives. (Please be aware that the reason those who stopped visiting have made that decision would be because they are out with the specific purpose to find the “lost sheep” who are ready to listen more than out of personal intellectual curiosity.)

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,
Greetings!

1. Yes. Lucifer had a level of authority as an “angel of light”, but rebelled and was thus the total antithesis of what is represented by God’s Love, Light, love of truth, acting by faith to exercise power in the Universe while completely allowing agency, omniscience, and omnipotence. So Lucifer was never anything remotely like a “god”, but tried to usurp power by destroying agency and by deceiving all the spirits who would listen to his cunning deception.

Not trying to be a stickler for words and definitions, but could you give me your definition for agency. I have a legal definition and a religious definition running through my head and I just want to make sure you define agency in close proximity to my religious one.

1. Not in the Book of Mormon. The passages that tell about Lucifer and Christ in the pre-mortal council in Heaven, and also the War in Heaven, are in Moses 4:1-4, Abraham 3:20-end (both in the Pearl of Great Price), Doctrine and Covenants 29:34, Isaiah 14 and Revelation 12.

Maybe I am using the Book of Mormon too loosely. I seem to us Book of Mormon as the compiled work but apparently they are separate. I couldn’t tell you if “Moses” is found in the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price, but I say Book of Mormon to mean it all.

1. Yes, but He also was the most supreme intelligence ever to have come to this mortal world, and learned so quickly through reading the Prophets, observing the world and the people around Him, and receiving revelation as He asked questions through prayer, that He was no doubt the most knowledgeable Person on earth by the age of twelve in terms of spiritual knowledge and understanding.

See, now I never knew that about your faith. But let me make sure I understand, because I never really thought about it from my own beliefs: Jesus was the smartest man on the planet, but he had no knowledge of his heavenly mission or heavenly father until later in life.

I always gloss over the kind of thoughts or questions that basically are things like: “when did Jesus understand his life’s calling?” “Did Jesus always know his heavenly Father’s plan?”

1. He would have begun life that way, but as noted in #3 He would have progressed in understanding by reading (probably including the Book of Moses as it is recorded in what Joseph Smith was inspired to restore as Moses’ words) and by asking questions and receiving revelation through the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 14 could have been a springboard to ask questions in prayer, to gain more insights into how Lucifer rebelled. I have no doubt that Christ “taught with authority” because He taught using revealed knowledge.

Peace to you, Xavierlives. (Please be aware that the reason those who stopped visiting have made that decision would be because they are out with the specific purpose to find the “lost sheep” who are ready to listen more than out of personal intellectual curiosity.)

Oh, I hold no ill-will to toward them. Every few years when we re-establish contact, I try to be as straightforward with them as possible. When they visit, I try to explain that my interest in their visits is more of understanding their faith than a consideration of converting.
As much as I learn, I find there are still more things to be relayed.

 

[ParkerD]

Not trying to be a stickler for words and definitions, but could you give me your definition for agency. I have a legal definition and a religious definition running through my head and I just want to make sure you define agency in close proximity to my religious one.

Maybe I am using the Book of Mormon too loosely. I seem to us Book of Mormon as the compiled work but apparently they are separate. I couldn’t tell you if “Moses” is found in the Book of Mormon or the Pearl of Great Price, but I say Book of Mormon to mean it all.

See, now I never knew that about your faith. But let me make sure I understand, because I never really thought about it from my own beliefs: Jesus was the smartest man on the planet, but he had no knowledge of his heavenly mission or heavenly father until later in life.

I always gloss over the kind of thoughts or questions that basically are things like: “when did Jesus understand his life’s calling?” “Did Jesus always know his heavenly Father’s plan?”
…
As much as I learn, I find there are still more things to be relayed.

Xavierlives,
1–The word “agency” has a significantly important meaning in a spiritual sense. Often it is described as “moral agency” or “free will”. Another expression would be “accountable choice.”

Humankind was given both a “collective agency” and a “personal agency” on this earth. With Lucifer’s rebellion, he wished to control every choice made by the spirits who would gain a body as they came to this earth in mortality, and also sought to control even the choices of the spirits in that pre-mortal sphere.

Governments that believe in freedom implement laws in keeping with the idea of “collective agency”–to allow for a full range of choices but yet establish clear boundaries and penalties for infringing on another person’s well-being or their defined personal property. “Personal agency” moves beyond that into the area of personal accountability for every choice made as an accountable being.

Because God is perfectly good and yet perfect in allowing agency of spirits and of humankind, His plan which Jesus fully understood and supported, was that spirits would come to earth and gain a physical body and be allowed to choose for themselves with no force involved and often without the immediate consequences of wrong choices, but with a plan whereby the consequences of wrong choices would be taught and explained.

3–It seems evident from what happened with the “flight into Egypt” and with how Jesus responded in the temple and with His parents at age twelve, that He was told by Mary who He was, and He would also have sensed who He was as He read the writings of the prophets. To gain all the understanding about who He was and what His mission entailed in this world, He would have learned through reading, pondering, observing, and prayerfully considering as well as asking God for understanding. He would have begun that process at a very young age. We would call Him a “child prodigy” with His understanding at age twelve, and even younger than that. During the course of His life, “Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”

 

[catholic-rcia]

I was LDS as a child, remember the Story about Jesus and Lucifer. To be totally straight foreword I do believe the LDS church has the other brother as their leader (who has come in the appearance of the light of Christ) and I will explain why briefly . I could spend the rest of my life writing on these things. Just throw some stuff out there. As a Catholic I have been able to witness the Catholic Saints bond that is humility, the common chord that connects each one. The one Spirit of Christ. Here is this bond that I find in them:

……And once more…There will true Glory be, where no one will be praised by mistake or flattery; true honor will not be refused to the worthy, nor granted to the unworthy; likewise, no one unworthy will pretend to be worthy, where only those who are worthy will be admitted. Their true peace will reign, where no one will experience opposition either from self or others. God himself will be virtue’s reward; he gives virtue and has promised to give “Himself” as the best and greatest reward that could exist…“I shall be their God and they will be my people…” This is also the meaning of the Apostle’s words: “So that God may be all in all.” God himself will be the goal of our desires; we shall contemplate him without end, love him without end, and praise him without weariness. This gift, this state, this act, like eternal life itself, will assuredly be common in all…Catholic ecyclopedia

The LDS Church takes exactly what was offered to Jesus in the dessert and presents it as a good thing. What happened in the garden. the fall of mankind and presents it as a good thing. Even to the point of God lying. What is wrong with having food when you are hungry? Jesus said no to this food.
What is wrong with success? Making money? Paying a good portion of tithing? Jesus said no to these things that to us appear good. Jesus was clear to Lucifer in the dessert. If it’s not from His Father he will not accept it. He asks us all to discern and to try and do the same. This would be saying no to the things of this world, yes to the things of heaven.
The LDS offers its members everything that this earth offers, their God is the family. Presenting all the things that appear to be good while attempting to take away all the things that appear to be bad, thus look good and play this part.

So isn’t it obvious why a Church like that would take away the Cross? Focus on the resurrection…only the good part. They do not have to delve into sin, into the mirror as we do. It is easy. But for Jesus nothing on earth was easy. It was our sin that He suffered for, that He came to die for. Learn this, obsorb this, you would become Catholic. Hope? Oh yes…we understand “Father forgive them” We who attend Confession do know His love for each one of us.

While the Catholic Saints set their hope in Christ, in His resurrection for them, they had no problem going to the Suffering Christ, being with the suffering Christ. In Salt Lake city one only needs to look for the suffering Christ about a mile from the LDS temple, up on a hill where the suffering Christ finds real food, real warmth while laying on a pew….our Cathedral of the Madeline.
In this passage below I do see the LDS in it…myself as well as I fight the battle daily. The difference is I can see God as my ultimate end. my family included in this end but not it, not that important. Only in Christ will anyone of us be important. The LDS Church offers up the world as we know it, only better, more perfect. In this they are offering the world…it is nothing compared to what God has in store for those who Love Him, know Him as Creator of all things.

“For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame – who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven…”
Philippians 3:1

“…you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience… But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus… For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast…” Ephesians 2:1-9

Rich

www.utahmisison.com

 

[ParkerD]

Rich,
It’s certainly OK for you to have chosen what works for you in your life and brings you personal satisfaction, but the judging you have also chosen to do bespeaks of misunderstanding so many of the teachings of the gospel that one wonders how much you have really read the Bible. If you personally wish to, go ahead and throw out Malachi 3 and Isaiah 58 and Deuteronomy 28 and dozens of similar passages of scripture, and if you want assume everyone who believes God really meant what He inspired those prophets to write is off track, but don’t blame it on the fact that Christ understood the difference between the needs of the body and the needs of the soul. God has made abundant provision for the flourishing of both the body and the soul, always with exercising faith in Christ as the center of that abundance.

 

[Jerusha]

Catholics identify with the suffering Christ. When we suffer, or see others suffering, we are reminded of the suffering Christ. (At least, good Catholics do.)

Mormons have lost sight of the suffering Christ, and the teachings of Christ. (generally)

When mormons suffer, or see others suffer, they think it must be God punishing them for their sins.

As incredible as it seems, Parker, you seem to have risen above these generalizations, and developed an ethical form of Mormonism for yourself. You have a right to that. However, if you do not already do so, I would suggest that you work among your own people to spread the morph of Mormonism that you so ardently support.

You are obviously an anomaly among Mormons. God Bless you and your efforts, but your talents are wasted here.

 

[ParkerD]

Catholics identify with the suffering Christ. When we suffer, or see others suffering, we are reminded of the suffering Christ. (At least, good Catholics do.)

Mormons have lost sight of the suffering Christ, and the teachings of Christ. (generally)

When mormons suffer, or see others suffer, they think it must be God punishing them for their sins.

As incredible as it seems, Parker, you seem to have risen above these generalizations, and developed an ethical form of Mormonism for yourself. You have a right to that. However, if you do not already do so, I would suggest that you work among your own people to spread the morph of Mormonism that you so ardently support.

You are obviously an anomaly among Mormons. God Bless you and your efforts, but your talents are wasted here.

Hi, Jerusha,
Just a quick note to thank you for your kind thought. I appreciate the remark about having “developed an ethical form of Mormonism”, and I do ardently support and am engaged in seeking to uphold and encourage following all the teachings of Jesus, among first-hand contacts such as family and a small class I teach each Sunday.

As to “talents wasted,” I have had several personal experiences during the course of participating here that have directly been the exact opposite of that remark, so even though time is a relative “commodity” and talents generally grow as they are used, I don’t feel that either my time or “talents” (which I take to mean that I enjoy putting words on a page and enjoy thinking about Biblical scripture meaning) have been wasted here, especially since what is “recorded on earth” is also “recorded in heaven”. I have sincerely felt this latter aspect of this computer/internet writing process also, since one such as myself would have an interest in what goes on in the spirit world and how they can still glean from what this world does.

There are places in the heart that may be touched when even the mind may not have realized it at the time. I am all for that, and have a long-term view as I spend time “here”.

Thanks again, and warm wishes to you for a lovely Thanksgiving with your family.