LDS Question - Are Jesus and Lucifer brothers?

[TheosisM]

Just so we’re clear on the Catholic perspective:

Catholics believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-eternal Persons. There was never a time when the Son did not exist, or the Holy Spirit did not existed. Therefore Catholics would never believe that the Son was created (or that He could be the brother of Lucifer). Each Person of the Trinity has existed forever, without beginning or end. When we say that the Son is “eternally begotten” of the Father, or that the Spirit “proceeds from the Father [through/and the Son]” we believe that these words describe an eternal relationship between the Three, and emphasizes the monarchy of the Father within the Trinity, as He neither is begotten or proceeds. They do not mean that there was a time when the Son and/or Spirit did not exist, or that they are created entities. Jesus Christ was also begotten of the Father in that He had no earthly father when He incarnated on the earth.

Catholics believe that angels are a different type of being than humans or God (call it a different species if you will). Satan and the demons all were/are angels that rebelled against God.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Rich,
It’s certainly OK for you to have chosen what works for you in your life and brings you personal satisfaction, but the judging you have also chosen to do bespeaks of misunderstanding so many of the teachings of the gospel that one wonders how much you have really read the Bible. If you personally wish to, go ahead and throw out Malachi 3 and Isaiah 58 and Deuteronomy 28 and dozens of similar passages of scripture, and if you want assume everyone who believes God really meant what He inspired those prophets to write is off track, but don’t blame it on the fact that Christ understood the difference between the needs of the body and the needs of the soul. God has made abundant provision for the flourishing of both the body and the soul, always with exercising faith in Christ as the center of that abundance.

Rich,
It’s certainly OK for you to have chosen what works for you in your life and brings you personal satisfaction, but the judging you have also chosen to do bespeaks of misunderstanding so many of the teachings of the gospel that one wonders how much you have really read the Bible.

Dear Parker

*I am immersed into the One body of Christ Parker, I live it daily sin and all. Joy and suffering. I have attended Mass for eleven years now so I have in essence been through the bible at least 3 times because of the daily scriptures. I have attended Christmas, Christ-Mass on Christmas Eve 11 times, Easter 11 times, and all of the Sunday Masses. I do not know the Bible in and out by any means, especially the Old Testament. I have always had a hard time reading anything but I do read the scriptures that our read on any given Sunday. We have a Bible study that we go to each and every Thursday to go over the Sunday readings and ponder them. Our Priest has a hidden microphone in the room so he can get great inspirations from all of us for his homily, his reflection on those scriptures for the Sunday Mass. ….Just kidding. His insight is usually a lot closer than ours. We have a very good Priest here in Northern Utah. *

Regarding my post #17, did you see where I placed this:
**In this passage below I do see the LDS in it…myself as well as I fight the battle daily. **The difference is I can see God as my ultimate end. My family included in this end but not it, not that important.

First I want to say this is not a judgment, this is a fact. I have helped with what we call the RCIA for eleven years now. I have seen and heard countless LDS speak on this through the years. Emphasis being placed on the eternal family rather that 100% on Christ. Jesus being our Lord, Savior and God…Life itself.

*What I am saying here is we are asked by Jesus to place Him above all things even our families. The reason He asked me personally to do this is because He is my families’ creator as all things were created through Him, by Him, for Him, nothing that was made weather on heaven our earth was not made by any other source. This of course includes Lucifer, the fallen Angel. An angel that wants what Jesus has always had with the Father. “Power in His own rite” . I myself do the same when I sin, when I think I am so important. When I accept praise from others, when I place things ahead of God, family included …etc… *

*Keep in mind I have a wonderful wife that I met at fourteen years old (Given to me by God) and three awesome children (Given to me by God) *

*Jesus is the source of my families love for one another. Jesus is Love, Jesus is Trinity where all love comes from. I do not posses this Love, although He allows me to share in it with others. Without Jesus at our center we would have no families, no existence at all, therefore not important. *

Continued…

 

[catholic-rcia]

If you personally wish to, go ahead and throw out Malachi 3 and Isaiah 58 and Deuteronomy 28 and dozens of similar passages of scripture, and if you want assume everyone who believes God really meant what He inspired those prophets to write is off track, but don’t blame it on the fact that Christ understood the difference between the needs of the body and the needs of the soul.

We are all made in the image of God (Image meaning Love) in the divine image we were created “Good” therefore all of our bodies are very good for the creatures we are, very special. But it is sin, the move we made away from the grace of God, that which connected us perfectly to Him that destroys the body….we are Mortal and our bodies do return to dust right? In the garden we had to eat from the TREE OF LIFE because as adopted Children of God, not being God we have to go through a process of choosing to go away from Him by desiring His power and His Glory. To be a god in our own right. This is the Fall of mankind.

*We have to turn to Jesus by our free choice as the Prodigal son turned back to His Father. (This in a nutshell is the plan of Salvation) This TREE OF LIFE gets us back home to the Grace of God. The Tree is now the Cross. The Fruit is Jesus. When we receive Communion we eat from this Tree, it nourishes, yes our bodies as it is perfect food, but mostly is nourishes our souls so that we can see Him, constantly turning away from our sins to Him. And He always accepts us with outstretched arms (The Cross) Ultimate Love for you and I. *

God has made abundant provision for the flourishing of both the body

Yes, He made us, perfect bodies, placed us in a fantastic garden. We wanted more, Licifer offered us more, we took it hook line amd sinker, severed the chord of perfect grace. In this we all die.,

Jesus brings us back by the way of His Cross, We are the lost lamb upon His back, we are the Cross upon His back.

***The Greatest food being the Most Holy Eucharist, our daily bread, our daily miracle. ***

and the soul, always with exercising faith in Christ as the center of that abundance.

Agreed

In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com
www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[dianaiad]

I am not questioning whether God created all things, I am questioning the relationship. Being “brothers” shows a relationship. It also puts them on somewhat equal ground. Sure, one must be first, etc, but the effect is either saying: 1. In this pre-earthly state they were equals (gods or not gods). 2. In this pre-earthly state, they understood their roles, but Jesus lost his understanding when he came in human form, but Lucifer did not because he came in angelic form. 3. In this pre-earthly state, they weren’t really “brother” but shared the common created ancestry of being creatures from God.

I’m not sure if we are discussing all or none of these things.

You are making some rather strange assumptions, that beg a LOT of questions.
First, at what point did this discussion between Jesus, Lucifer and God take place? Certainly it must have been at some point before the creation of all things…before there was ‘time’ to deal with…

Second, why do you think that “Jesus lost His understanding?”

…and given that we, whose beliefs these are, think that "angel’ means ‘messenger,’ then Lucifer never was one of those. At least, not a messenger from God.

Third, what makes you think that being pure spirit makes anybody more special, more powerful…more ANYTHING than being a soul of both body and spirit?

Fourth, we are His creations in about the same sense that you are the creation of your mortal parents. We are His offspring; His children, His heirs…that is, if you believe the Bible in this matter. One creates one’s children in one sense, of course, but it’s not exactly the same sense in which one creates a doll, is it?

 

[ParkerD]

Rich,
Good morning. You noted that:

…especially the Old Testament. I have always had a hard time reading anything but I do read the scriptures that our read on any given Sunday. We have a Bible study…

I would suggest you take the time and interest to read the Bible on your own, without relying on hearing it from others. It probably won’t help much to change your strange outlook about the LDS beliefs, but it might help you be less judgmental and more understanding about why God placed families on earth as families, relying on and helping each other. It might help you understand the Sermon on the Mount better, which would be a nice addition to your theological background. Good luck, and peace to you, Rich.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Rich,
Good morning. You noted that:

I would suggest you take the time and interest to read the Bible on your own, without relying on hearing it from others. It probably won’t help much to change your strange outlook about the LDS beliefs, but it might help you be less judgmental and more understanding about why God placed families on earth as families, relying on and helping each other. It might help you understand the Sermon on the Mount better, which would be a nice addition to your theological background. Good luck, and peace to you, Rich.

The Old Testament is about our sinful nature and all about the one who would come, that would deliver us from it. I get the Bible directly from the Churches diary. the Scriptures being read as they are, as they have always been. I have the Holy Spirit given to the Church at Pentacost, (And Lo I will be with you always) infused in me to help guide me. My outlook on the LDS faith is dead on as I understand our fallen nature well. Both Catholic and the LDS.
This may help you:
"My soul cannot find rest, till it rests in You, O God."

The Eternal Wisdom
When I was just twenty it gave me great satisfaction that I managed to read, and understand, the Ten Categories of Aristotle without a teacher. I would mention the book at every opportunity, slipping the title in with a touch of awe, smiling to myself when lecturers would comment how difficult it had been for them to answer it.
And much good it did me! Indeed, it was harmful, because it encouraged me to think of You, O Lord, as if you were part of what you had made, instead of being its essence and origin. Sadly, I had my back toward the light and my eyes fixed on the darkness. I could understand without difficulty logic, rhetoric, geometry, music, and arithmetic, but I did not see that my intelligence itself was a gift of God and that all the true things I learned came from him, their source. What advantage was it to me that I had a nimble wit when all the while I turned from good and clung to evil? Little did I realize then how much better off were all those (as I saw them) “simple” souls who lacked my native intelligence but put their trust in God .…Saint Augustine
*Maybe you can tell me where you feel my judgment is wrong. But please realize that my judgment is from the heart, and the only true Heart I know is Christ’s. It is the Holy Spirit in me that Judges out of love. I myself have no lock on this Spirit or on Love. But I do allow it to guide me and work for it, serve it so to speak for others. *
As to why God placed families on the earth, it is my belief that His love can not be contained. He created us to first love Him above all things, then He allows us to love each other as The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have throughout all of eternity. What a Gift to His created creatures. What a special gift this life is. We just choose to place other things above Him (The Fall) We go through this to get back home, to get it!!! Like the Prodigal Son.
**
He does not need us
, yet here we are. All praise Honor and glory to God.
**

• Parker I have the Holy Spirit in me, it is what enlightens me to these things. I do not have to be that smart or be instructed in Theology. I have the same access to the Holy Spirit as the Apostles themselves. I was baptised into the One Body of Christ, all connected in Him. (Trinity) I have been given the same revelation as to who Jesus is as the Apostles. They were ordinary people who found Jesus, and place Him above all things. They came to rely on Him because they knew to rely on self was fruitless. We are baptized into Christ’s death in order to be raised in Him. *
  **
  God Bless
  Rich
  www.utahmission.com
  www.chooseyourcross.com
  **