LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[evanfaust]

Rinnnie says
Its clear to me you said the Mormon Church can fail. I agree, and has. The RCC not only CANNOT fail it WILL NEVER Fail. Why because it is led by the Power of the Holy Spirit, one in being with God. If the Holy Spirit can fail, then God can fail. which is just down right IMPOSSIBLE. That is why the CC is not led by People. It is led by GOD HIMSELF

Evanfaust comments…
Rinnie, I remember making a comment on something like this on the other thread. But I will make the comment again.

Every church claims to have the Holly Spirit. How can you prove the Catholic Church has the Holly Ghost and no other? I used to be Catholic, my whole family was Catholic and yet I never felt the Holly Spirit while I was there. I came to feel the spirit when I started to investigate the Mormon Church. As I said before…It was a powerful spiritual manifestation, which I cannot deny.

 

[evanfaust]

Paul C says
Family and financial backers don’t make the most credible witnesses, especially since Martin Harris, one of those witnesses admitted that the 8 witnesses never actually saw the plates and were in fact persuaded to sign the document.

Evanfaust responds,
Martin Harris never denied what he saw until his death! He not only stated he saw the plates, but he also saw and heard the angel. He even signs a document stating these things. He was a man of integrity and a citizen of good standing in the society he lived in. The other two witnesses Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer were not financial backers and yet they claim to have seen the plates and the Angel too. They also signed the affidavit. The three witnesses went to the grave without denying what they saw and heard, even after being excommunicated from the church.

Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery came back to the Mormon Church, Peter Whitmer is the only one who never came back, but never denied his testimony.

I suggest you read the following articles.

fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses_3.pdf

eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses

 

[paul_c]

*Paul C says…
I wonder what sign Joseph Smith was able to show that proved that God now supported adultery? *

Evanfaust comments…
You already convinced yourself that Joseph Smith committed adultery. Perhaps you should open your mind to investigate the situation a little. Study his character, his personality and his accomplishments, then you tell me if he was capable of committing adultery.

The information we have on Joseph Smith’s plural marriages is sketchy, simply because there were few official records kept at the time because of the fear of misunderstanding and persecution. What we do know is culled from journals and reminiscences of those who were involved.

The most conservative estimates indicate that Joseph entered into plural marriages with 29–33 women, 7 of whom were under the age of 18. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, who was 14. The rest were 16 (two) or 17 (three). One wife (Maria Winchester) about which virtually nothing is known, was either 14 or 15.

Joseph Smith was no match for Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines. I Kings 11:1-3

Joseph married these women, which is not considered adultery! Would you call Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others adulterers?

It was not unusual for men to marry young women during the time of Joseph. Please read the article to know more about it.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith’s_marriages_to_young_women

The adultery part isn’t that he married 14 year olds, or even that he had 33 wives. The adultery part is that 10 of these women were already married to other men. The documentation is all in the LDS marriage archives. Abrahan, Isaac, Jacob and the others had multiple wives, but never married another man;s wife. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and he was severly punished by God.

 

[evanfaust]

Paul C says…
Share this with us. What miracles are you talking about that someone has actually witnessed. For instance, when Joseph Smith claimed to be able to interpret the golden plates (which no one ever saw) miraculously, I easily discount that as an unsubstantiated claim that any con man could perpetrate. Can you offer something up like St. Bernadette At Lourdes, who miraculously found a spring where none existed before that resulted in at least 59 medically verified miracles over the last 150 years? Or like the Dancing of the sun at Fatima, witnessed by 70,000 people and reported in the secular press in 1917?

Evanfaust responds…

The history of the Mormon Church is rich in spiritual manifestations, but I mention the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. This is equivalent to the Day of Pentecost recorded in the New Testament.

The year is 1836. The year the Kirtland temple is completed and dedicated.

Over 1,000 saints attended the ceremony. The Savior appeared in five different meetings held in the temple. Visions, including a vision of the Father and Son, were beheld at eight meetings, and the congregation saw heavenly beings or angels in nine meetings. In other sessions many Saints reported that they experienced such manifestations as the gift of tongues, the sounds of a mighty wind, a pillar of fire resting down upon the temple roof, prophesying, and the voices of angels (Joseph Smith’s Kirtland, p.170).

Truly, heaven and earth met.

Joseph said, “…The gifts which follow them that believe and obey the gospel…began to be poured out among us, as in ancient days…”

I tell my Pentecostal/Charismatic friends, the great outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our day did not begin in 1900 out west in California on Azuza Street. It began in the Midwest in a little town called Kirtland, Ohio, sixty-four years earlier! Most of my friends have never heard the marvelous story of the great outpouring that accompanied the early Saints. It was a Pentecost, indeed, and a time of rejoicing. I would say—a time unparalleled in our day. So few of today’s Christians know about it.

Zebedee Coltrin, eyewitness, wrote,

“…I* have seen the power of God as it was on the day of Pentecost…I saw the Lord…The angels of God rested upon the Temple and we heard their voices singing heavenly music*…”

Hear Lorenzo Snow, another eyewitness:

“…There [in the temple] we had the gift of prophecy—the gift of tongues—the interpretation of tongues—visions and marvelous dreams were related—the singing of heavenly choirs was heard, and wonderful manifestations of the healing power, through the administrations of the Elders, were witnessed. The sick were healed—the deaf made to hear—the blind to see and the lame to walk, in very many instances. It was plainly manifest that a sacred and divine influence—a spiritual atmosphere pervaded that holy edifice.” --Biography of Lorenzo Snow, p.11

Daniel Tyler wrote, “…All felt that they had a foretaste of heaven…and we wondered whether the millenium had commenced…”

So great was the outpouring that our beloved Prophet was constrained to write,

“…It was a Pentecost and an endowment indeed, long to be remembered, for the sound shall go forth from this place into all the world, and the occurrences of this day shall be handed down upon the pages of sacred history, to all generations; as the day of Pentecost, so shall this day be numbered and celebrated as a year of jubilee, and time of rejoicing to the Saints of the Most High God.” --History of the Church, 2:432-33

greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/me_in_restoration/KirtlandTemple.htm

mormonhistoricsitesregistry.org/USA/ohio/kirtland/temple/stories/_temple1_pfv.htm

Now read some of the miracles performed by Joseph Smith. There are many others.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Healings_and_miracles

 

[Xavierlives]

The marrying of other men’s wives? It seems to be common knowledge on most of the LDS forums I’ve read. Beyond LDS circles probably not.

I’m just saying do the Mormons accept this as well or is this something they argue?

 

[vickimonica]

Rinnnie says
Its clear to me you said the Mormon Church can fail. I agree, and has. The RCC not only CANNOT fail it WILL NEVER Fail. Why because it is led by the Power of the Holy Spirit, one in being with God. If the Holy Spirit can fail, then God can fail. which is just down right IMPOSSIBLE. That is why the CC is not led by People. It is led by GOD HIMSELF

Evanfaust comments…
Rinnie, I remember making a comment on something like this on the other thread. But I will make the comment again.

Every church claims to have the Holly Spirit. How can you prove the Catholic Church has the Holly Ghost and no other? I used to be Catholic, my whole family was Catholic and yet I never felt the Holly Spirit while I was there. I came to feel the spirit when I started to investigate the Mormon Church. As I said before…It was a powerful spiritual manifestation, which I cannot deny.

I experienced THE EXACT OPPOSITE – When I was mormon, I felt nothing spiritually, when I converted to Catholicism, I experienced a powerful spiritual manifestation which I cannot deny…

 

[Xavierlives]

*Paul C says…
I wonder what sign Joseph Smith was able to show that proved that God now supported adultery? *

Evanfaust comments…
You already convinced yourself that Joseph Smith committed adultery. Perhaps you should open your mind to investigate the situation a little. Study his character, his personality and his accomplishments, then you tell me if he was capable of committing adultery.

The information we have on Joseph Smith’s plural marriages is sketchy, simply because there were few official records kept at the time because of the fear of misunderstanding and persecution. What we do know is culled from journals and reminiscences of those who were involved.

The most conservative estimates indicate that Joseph entered into plural marriages with 29–33 women, 7 of whom were under the age of 18. The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of LDS apostle Heber C. Kimball, who was 14. The rest were 16 (two) or 17 (three). One wife (Maria Winchester) about which virtually nothing is known, was either 14 or 15.

Joseph Smith was no match for Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines. I Kings 11:1-3

Joseph married these women, which is not considered adultery! Would you call Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others adulterers?

It was not unusual for men to marry young women during the time of Joseph. Please read the article to know more about it.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith’s_marriages_to_young_women

Ok. Since his marriages are now in the mix, I did a cursory look and found a list with 34 wives.

Some of the statistics I gleened were

17 were married in 1843
11 we married in 1842
3 we married in 1841
3 between 1838 & 1827.
11 had living husbands at the time of their marriage to JS. (Lucinda Morgan Harris, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Presendia Huntington Buell, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Ruth Vose Sayers, & Elvira Cowles Holmes).

I guess that is the adultery they are referring.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Ok. Since his marriages are now in the mix, I did a cursory look and found a list with 34 wives.

Some of the statistics I gleened were

17 were married in 1843
11 we married in 1842
3 we married in 1841
3 between 1838 & 1827.
11 had living husbands at the time of their marriage to JS. (Lucinda Morgan Harris, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Presendia Huntington Buell, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Ruth Vose Sayers, & Elvira Cowles Holmes).

I guess that is the adultery they are referring.

After Joseph Smith died Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, was married to Brigham Young, again while married to her husband Henry.
It’s like daytime television.

 

[sablouwho]

Every church claims to have the Holly Spirit. How can you prove the Catholic Church has the Holly Ghost and no other? I used to be Catholic, my whole family was Catholic and yet I never felt the Holly Spirit while I was there. I came to feel the spirit when I started to investigate the Mormon Church. As I said before…It was a powerful spiritual manifestation, which I cannot deny.

Evan,

First, I absolutely believe you when you say you didn’t feel the HS when you were Catholic. I am glad that you have found that the LDS faith that resonates for you and gives you meaning. I believe that many people experience the HS quite strongly in the LDS Church. (And yeah, I realize that my view is likely in the minority, and an unpopular one on CAF…)

However, I also have a friend who converted from Protestant to LDS and he tells me quite honestly that he doesn’t feel the HS any more strongly (w/in himself) as a Mormon than he did as a Lutheran. Which goes against the way it is “supposed” to be according to LDS belief.

And then, there’s me… When I was an LDS investigator, I did not have a sense of the HS. (And I had experienced the HS prior to becoming an investigator, so I knew what it can feel like.) Despite the lovely and wonderful people I met in the ward and in the stake (some of whom I am still friends with) I was rather unhappy attending the ward on Sundays, firesides, etc. Instead of feeling the HS, instead of having a feeling of peace and being happy I felt, well, for lack of a better term, I guess I would describe how I felt as “spiritually nauseous.” Exactly the opposite of what the missionaries said I should be experiencing. I was miserable. And this was despite earnest and sincere prayer to God that I prayer over and over again over several months. (So please–whatever you may say to me, please do not suggest that I wasn’t sincere in my prayers as this just is not the case.) I could only conclude that God did not want me to be LDS.

I don’t have a specific question for you other than to say that I am very curious to hear the reaction of an LDS person (yourself and/or other LDS who may be reading this) to what I have described with regard to my situation. Despite my earnestness and sincerity, crying out to God, praying on my knees regarding becoming LDS (so many times over the several months that I was an investigator that I couldn’t count them all) and my desire to have the LDS church work for me, I did not have a sense of peace when I contemplated joining the Mormon church.

 

[Xavierlives]

Ok. Since his marriages are now in the mix, I did a cursory look and found a list with 34 wives.

Some of the statistics I gleened were

17 were married in 1843
11 we married in 1842
3 we married in 1841
3 between 1838 & 1827.
11 had living husbands at the time of their marriage to JS. (Lucinda Morgan Harris, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Presendia Huntington Buell, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Ruth Vose Sayers, & Elvira Cowles Holmes).

I guess that is the adultery they are referring.

I must be tired… and didn’t bother to read it.

17 were married in 1843
11 were married in 1842
3 were married in 1841
3 were married between 1838 & 1827.
11 had living husbands at the time of their marriage to JS. (Lucinda Morgan Harris, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Presendia Huntington Buell, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Ruth Vose Sayers, & Elvira Cowles Holmes).

There is also a sister connection on a few.

 

[evanfaust]

*Paul C says
The adultery part isn’t that he married 14 year olds, or even that he had 33 wives. The adultery part is that 10 of these women were already married to other men. The documentation is all in the LDS marriage archives. Abrahan, Isaac, Jacob and the others had multiple wives, but never married another man;s wife. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and he was severly punished by God. *

Evanfaust comments…
I found an article that elaborates on Joseph’s sealing of women already married. Most of the evidence points out that these were eternal sealing and not just marriage with the intent of sexual relations.

en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_polyandry/Book_chapter

In the case of David and Bathsheba I must point out that the punishment by God was not only because of the adultery, but also for murder.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I must be tired… and didn’t bother to read it.

17 were married in 1843
11 were married in 1842
3 were married in 1841
3 were married between 1838 & 1827.
11 had living husbands at the time of their marriage to JS. (Lucinda Morgan Harris, Zina Huntington Jacobs, Presendia Huntington Buell, Sylvia Sessions Lyon, Mary Rollins Lightner, Patty Bartlett Sessions, Marinda Johnson Hyde, Elizabeth Davis Durfee, Sarah Kingsley Cleveland, Ruth Vose Sayers, & Elvira Cowles Holmes).

There is also a sister connection on a few.

I think there is something in the D&C that forbids this?

 

[ParkerD]

Evan,

First, I absolutely believe you when you say you didn’t feel the HS when you were Catholic. I am glad that you have found that the LDS faith that resonates for you and gives you meaning. I believe that many people experience the HS quite strongly in the LDS Church. (And yeah, I realize that my view is likely in the minority, and an unpopular one on CAF…)

However, I also have a friend who converted from Protestant to LDS and he tells me quite honestly that he doesn’t feel the HS any more strongly (w/in himself) as a Mormon than he did as a Lutheran. Which goes against the way it is “supposed” to be according to LDS belief.

And then, there’s me… When I was an LDS investigator, I did not have a sense of the HS. (And I had experienced the HS prior to becoming an investigator, so I knew what it can feel like.) Despite the lovely and wonderful people I met in the ward and in the stake (some of whom I am still friends with) I was rather unhappy attending the ward on Sundays, firesides, etc. Instead of feeling the HS, instead of having a feeling of peace and being happy I felt, well, for lack of a better term, I guess I would describe how I felt as “spiritually nauseous.” Exactly the opposite of what the missionaries said I should be experiencing. I was miserable. And this was despite earnest and sincere prayer to God that I prayer over and over again over several months. (So please–whatever you may say to me, please do not suggest that I wasn’t sincere in my prayers as this just is not the case.) I could only conclude that God did not want me to be LDS.

I don’t have a specific question for you other than to say that I am very curious to hear the reaction of an LDS person (yourself and/or other LDS who may be reading this) to what I have described with regard to my situation. Despite my earnestness and sincerity, crying out to God, praying on my knees regarding becoming LDS (so many times over the several months that I was an investigator that I couldn’t count them all) and my desire to have the LDS church work for me, I did not have a sense of peace when I contemplated joining the Mormon church.

Sablouwho,
Hello to you. May I first say that having read something about your current situation, it would seem important to do what you have made a commitment to do, and do what you have committed to yourself to do.

It sounds to me like you were sincere in your prayers as described above. I assume based on what you have written, that you had had a very powerful experience to feel inclined to come unto Christ and rejoice that He is the Son of God and is the Promised Messiah of the Old Testament.

If you have studied the Old Testament (particularly Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, and Malachi) and studied the New Testament, and have also studied the Book of Mormon, and had done all that prior to your prayers as described above, and have rectified any “relationship issues” in your personal or family life (not saying you have them, at all), then there is certainly the possibility that the Holy Spirit has “called” you in a different direction in that the Holy Spirit leads people where they can do the most good in the world in bringing themselves and others within their sphere of influence to greater light and knowledge than they previously had. It does seem strange that you felt “spiritually nauseous”, unless you were hearing doctrines that you didn’t understand or were feeling “pushed” or were feeling like you were getting short-changed in how answers to your questions were presented (these things can happen, since we are talking about mortals being mortal in how they do things).

But maybe it really is a case where you will be a “light” among your sphere of influence in a more effective way through your current chosen course of action. The Holy Spirit will indeed guide you in truth, and will do it by the still, small voice spoken of that the disciples on the road to Emmaus experienced and that the prophet Elijah experienced and that Samuel experienced. So keep on keeping on, and being honest with yourself and with God as you have done. God bless you always, and stay as kind and good-hearted as you are now.

 

[evanfaust]

Sablouwho,

I believe you are being sincere when you describe the way you feel as you attend the LDS Church. All of us go through phases or stages in life. It might be that you are not yet fully prepared to understand the true gospel of Jesus Christ. But, I can assure you this is the path that leads to eternal life! You will get there as you sincerely continue on your search of truth!

At the time when I was investigating the LDS Church I did not feel the spirit strongly initially either. I was very humble and had a tremendous desire to know the truth. I felt at peace and there was serene and calm feeling of love around. However, I was hungry spiritually and wanted to devour the LDS books and wanted to discuss the scriptures and the restoration of the gospel.

The feeling was intensifying gradually and about two or three weeks later I decided to be baptized. I was baptized and received the Holly Ghost at the moment of confirmation. I felt clean and warm inside! But even then I felt no tremendous manifestation. Two weeks later though, I was invited to bear my testimony in a group of about 15 people in one of the member’s home.

As I opened my mouth I felt this wonderful feeling all over my body and felt surrounded by a warm light that penetrated every fiber of my body. My chest started to burn and I felt the most sweet and peaceful feeling. I did not want that feeling and the light to leave me. The light of the Holly Spirit was with me confirming everything I was saying…and I was saying that I knew without a doubt that Joseph was a prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon was true and that the LDS church was the only true church on the earth! The light and the warm feeling stayed with me for about 3 to 5 minutes…it was very intense! I felt I was in heaven! Honestly, that was the happiest moments of my life. It is a type of happiness you cannot find in this world. In reality there are no proper words to accurately describe the experience. That burning feeling and that light shining upon me were almost palpable. It was something I want to feel forever! Fortunately I felt that again a couple more times in the next few months.

Now, after so many years I feel something similar, but it is more a feeling of love and compassion, it seems that the feeling of love is the light from God. They seem to be one in the same!

When I attend church, the feeling of love and the sense of surrounding light is there! Especially when I hear the music!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think there is something in the D&C that forbids this?

ha. Tell that to my ggfatherX4 that married three sisters. (ew)

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m just saying do the Mormons accept this as well or is this something they argue?

No argument the marriages occurred. Some argument towards the question of consummation.

 

[mfbukowski]

Yes, and he can go to confession and receive forgiveness from Christ.

So in precisely what way does the Holy Spirit lead the church if not through human beings?

Especially since humans DO make mistakes and have a choice to follow the spirit or not.

 

[sablouwho]

Evan,

I’m familiar with the feelings you describe regarding how you experienced the Holy Spirit. I have experienced something quite similar myself, just never in an LDS setting. (Though in the LDS setting it seemed pretty clear to me that other people had a strong sense of the HS).

Often when I would think of getting an LDS baptism, I felt like I was trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. It just didn’t feel like it fit. My experiences attending the ward (despite the lovely people) left me feeling sad, unloved, and alone.

Like I said above, I am glad that the LDS faith is such a glove fit for you. Sounds like you are very happy and are in your proper spiritual home. Can’t ask for more than that when it comes to religion!

Sablouwho

 

[zerinus]

Evan,

I’m familiar with the feelings you describe regarding how you experienced the Holy Spirit. I have experienced something quite similar myself, just never in an LDS setting. (Though in the LDS setting it seemed pretty clear to me that other people had a strong sense of the HS).

Often when I would think of getting an LDS baptism, I felt like I was trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. It just didn’t feel like it fit. My experiences attending the ward (despite the lovely people) left me feeling sad, unloved, and alone.

Like I said above, I am glad that the LDS faith is such a glove fit for you. Sounds like you are very happy and are in your proper spiritual home. Can’t ask for more than that when it comes to religion!

Sablouwho

The linchpin of conversion to (and retention in) Mormonism is the Book of Mormon. Mormonism stands or falls on the truth of the Book of Mormon. If your testimony of Mormonism is not based on the Book of Mormon, it is unlikely to be very strong, and may not endure very long. That is how one gets converted to Mormonism, not by getting a “good feeling” in Church.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnnie says
Its clear to me you said the Mormon Church can fail. I agree, and has. The RCC not only CANNOT fail it WILL NEVER Fail. Why because it is led by the Power of the Holy Spirit, one in being with God. If the Holy Spirit can fail, then God can fail. which is just down right IMPOSSIBLE. That is why the CC is not led by People. It is led by GOD HIMSELF

Evanfaust comments…
Rinnie, I remember making a comment on something like this on the other thread. But I will make the comment again.

Every church claims to have the Holly Spirit. How can you prove the Catholic Church has the Holly Ghost and no other? I used to be Catholic, my whole family was Catholic and yet I never felt the Holly Spirit while I was there. I came to feel the spirit when I started to investigate the Mormon Church. As I said before…It was a powerful spiritual manifestation, which I cannot deny.

Oh thats an easy one Evan. The reason I know for sure that the RCC has the power of the Holy Spirit is Jesus told us. Remember when Saul was persecuting the Church. Well St Paul was part of the CC. The CC is the first Church started at Pentecost by the Apostles. So I know Paul was persecuting the CHurch that Jesus started, then repentd and became quite a powerful leader of the CC. Scripture shows you, history proves it, and we have Apostlolic Succession from the time of Peter. ST Paul and St Peter were even in the Rome CHurch together.