LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[ParkerD]

Do you think a Nation that Legalizes Abortion is a Blessed Nation ?

No, absolutely not–it has been being punished for many years now as constitutional principles have been devalued and as the Ten Commandments have been basically disregarded. But when the constitution was first set up and as the nation grew, one can see the guiding influence of Almighty God. Now, I would say it hangs in the balance as to which direction it is going to go. Not a good picture at all.

 

[kimmielittle]

Jesus liked the metaphor. Because it was both illustrative and understandable. It also continues to be a contant from 2000 years ago (most people get the concept of a foundation (although native Americans or bedouin might struggle).

(although native Americans or bedouin might struggle).

 

[ParkerD]

I’m sorry but you have to face the facts here ParkerD, and you are avoiding them. If Clement, being personally trained and ordained by the Apostles (which I hope you do not dispute) knowingly lied to the church about the method of Apostolic succession, then he would be an apostate. You can’t excuse that as just being ‘human.’ If the leader of the early Church knowingly steered the flock wrong in such a major manner as this, that would be a very serious transgression. Clement is either telling the truth or lying. In order for the LDS Great Apostacy theory to be true, Clement has to be lying. You’re trying to be diplomatic about it, but that effort conceals the truth of the matter.

Chris-WA,
I don’t see from the writing of Clement I that he was “ordained by the Apostles”. He speaks of the apostles in the past tense, and the paragraph you cited uses the word “opinion” which does not imply that he knew by the inspiration and revelation of the Holy Spirit that either the process of ordaining new leaders was guided by the Holy Spirit, or that the case he is making is inspired by the Holy Spirit. He is presenting logic and reason, not inspired direction, by the very words he uses that are attempting to persuade rather than citing the promptings and guidance of the Holy Spirit as the guiding influence over the dealings of the church leadership.

One reliable source says about this Clement:

“While the letter, which was sent on behalf of the whole church, does not name its writer, well-attested ancient tradition identifies it as the work of Clement, although precisely who he is is not clear. Tradition identifies him as the 3rd bishop of Rome after Peter, but this is unlikely because the office of monarchical bishop, in the sense intended by this later tradition, does not appear to have existed in Rome at this time.”

Here is the link to that description:

ntcanon.org/I_Clement.shtml

It still appears to me that Clement was writing after the apostles were out of the picture, so he was defending the leaders including those who had been appointed later (some of whom evidently weren’t accepted by the members). Note that the office of “monarchical bishop” was not existent at that time, per this scholarly source.

 

[kimmielittle]

Rinnie,
He didn’t, basically, other than receiving the temporary practice which Abraham had of plural marriage, which was an “Abrahamic trial of faith” for a number of people.

Hiyas Parker

He didn’t, basically, other than receiving the temporary practice which Abraham had of plural marriage, which was an “Abrahamic trial of faith” for a number of people.

Sorry…even a kid reading that…would call that a cop out. Really…it does remind me of some excuses I’ve heard from kids.

As always, just my thoughts

 

[ParkerD]

Hiyas Parker

Sorry…even a kid reading that…would call that a cop out. Really…it does remind me of some excuses I’ve heard from kids.

As always, just my thoughts

Hi, Kimmielittle,
Good point. I didn’t have much time at that particular moment, but it would have been better to have explained myself more.

Joseph Smith was familiar with prophecies and teachings and promises of the Old Testament as well as of the New Testament. Our days and Joseph Smith’s days on the earth are days of fulfillment of many prophecies. The Old Testament prophecies about the last days or the “latter days” are treasures for us to understand who live on the earth today.

Here is one from Isaiah 4:

“And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.” The word “reproach” means “childlessness.”

I hope that helps to clarify for you and for Rinnie. (And in case you’re wondering, no–I don’t think plural marriage will ever again be required for a group of covenant people. I think those days are over, but there are great days ahead with abundant blessings of heaven promised for the covenant people of latter day Zions all over the world, and those blessings will center in righteous families who love the Lord. “Great shall be the peace of thy children” will be fulfilled.–Isaiah 54:13)

 

[Jay53]

Here is additional writing from 1 Clement regarding the “Order of Ministers in the Church” regarding the appointment of Bishops:

CHAPTER 42 – THE ORDER OF MINISTERS IN THE CHURCH.

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done sol from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, “I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.” earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

CHAPTER 44 – THE ORDINANCES OF THE APOSTLES, THAT THERE MIGHT BE NO CONTENTION RESPECTING THE PRIESTLY OFFICE.

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour. earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-roberts.html

 

[Xavierlives]

Hi, Kimmielittle,
Good point. I didn’t have much time at that particular moment, but it would have been better to have explained myself more.

Joseph Smith was familiar with prophecies and teachings and promises of the Old Testament as well as of the New Testament. Our days and Joseph Smith’s days on the earth are days of fulfillment of many prophecies. The Old Testament prophecies about the last days or the “latter days” are treasures for us to understand who live on the earth today.

Here is one from Isaiah 4:

“And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.” The word “reproach” means “childlessness.”

I hope that helps to clarify for you and for Rinnie. (And in case you’re wondering, no–I don’t think plural marriage will ever again be required for a group of covenant people. I think those days are over, but there are great days ahead with abundant blessings of heaven promised for the covenant people of latter day Zions all over the world, and those blessings will center in righteous families who love the Lord. “Great shall be the peace of thy children” will be fulfilled.–Isaiah 54:13)

I think I came in late to this part of the conversation so forgive me if this has been asked but, I thought according to Mormon doctrine, the marriage of anyone had to be “sealed” which makes me ask: How does anyone pre-1830 expect to get that seal? Or are they just out?

 

[Xavierlives]

Err… am I missing something. I was just noting that they didn’t have “foundations” in their houses or structures.

 

[ParkerD]

I think I came in late to this part of the conversation so forgive me if this has been asked but, I thought according to Mormon doctrine, the marriage of anyone had to be “sealed” which makes me ask: How does anyone pre-1830 expect to get that seal? Or are they just out?

Hi, Xavierlives,
That is another important question that bears on the whole topic of the authority of the apostles. They had authority that “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 18:18)

This includes the authority to “seal” in behalf of those who have died who did not have a “sealing” ordinance done through apostolic authority while they lived on the earth.

This is why Malachi was inspired to write the following prophecy about Elijah the Prophet, which are the last verses in the Old Testament:

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The turning of the heart of the children to their fathers is needed so that the “vicarious” work of those “sealing” ordinances will be done for their fathers and mothers, meaning their ancestors. This is why genealogical research has become such an interest in the world today, in that people are thinking about their ancestors.

The LDS have a pretty good idea why people have such an interest in finding out about their ancestral genealogical family roots. It is because of the coming of Elijah the Prophet to a temple on April 3, 1836 to restore the authority for those sealings in behalf of the ancestors. Elijah had also appeared to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration.

This is why the LDS do not just go to the temple once or twice in their life to have ordinances done in the temple for themselves, including a temple marriage (sealing). They go to represent their ancestors, who have the choice in the spirit world whether they want such an ordinance (sealing) to “count” toward having their marriage “sealed” as though it had been done when they were alive. This is also why apostolic sealing authority is so vitally important on the earth.

To be “bound in heaven” means the same thing as to be “sealed in heaven.”

 

[ParkerD]

Err… am I missing something. I was just noting that they didn’t have “foundations” in their houses or structures.

Oh–now I get it. I had wondered about what that comment had meant. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[ParkerD]

Here is additional writing from 1 Clement regarding the “Order of Ministers in the Church” regarding the appointment of Bishops:

Jay53,
You will notice that the first entry you quoted emphasized that the “full assurance of the Holy Ghost” was with the apostles as they ordained men to the offices of the priesthood. So the priesthood offices were always, without exception, given only by the direct inspiration (full assurance) of the Holy Ghost.

Clement didn’t emphasize that “full assurance” of the Holy Ghost in the second entry you noted. He emphasized the “strife on account of the office of the episcopate.” He emphasized the “good opinion of all” and those men serving “blamelessly and holily”. He is defending them from being “removed” from the “ministry” by the members or by other leaders. This shows that there was strife or dissension which was a major concern. Dissension does not occur within an atmosphere where everyone is guided by the promptings and “full assurance” of the Holy Ghost. It occurs when people have lost the influence of the Holy Ghost and are seeking to resolve differences on their own, using human reasoning and “opinions”. It illustrates the kind of problem the early church had to deal with, and that John would have had to deal with.

But John understood from his visions that the temporary result would be “drifting” and the loss of purity of the doctrine, yet the end result would be that Christ would still triumph with His work on the earth, and Satan would be bound and cast into outer darkness; also, that Christ would hold the keys of death and of hell, and open the gates of hell as He had promised.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
You will notice that the first entry you quoted emphasized that the “full assurance of the Holy Ghost” was with the apostles as they ordained men to the offices of the priesthood. So the priesthood offices were always, without exception, given only by the direct inspiration (full assurance) of the Holy Ghost.

Clement didn’t emphasize that “full assurance” of the Holy Ghost in the second entry you noted. He emphasized the “strife on account of the office of the episcopate.” He emphasized the “good opinion of all” and those men serving “blamelessly and holily”. He is defending them from being “removed” from the “ministry” by the members or by other leaders. This shows that there was strife or dissension which was a major concern. Dissension does not occur within an atmosphere where everyone is guided by the promptings and “full assurance” of the Holy Ghost. It occurs when people have lost the influence of the Holy Ghost and are seeking to resolve differences on their own, using human reasoning and “opinions”. It illustrates the kind of problem the early church had to deal with, and that John would have had to deal with.

But John understood from his visions that the temporary result would be “drifting” and the loss of purity of the doctrine, yet the end result would be that Christ would still triumph with His work on the earth, and Satan would be bound and cast into outer darkness; also, that Christ would hold the keys of death and of hell, and open the gates of hell as He had promised.

Good Morning Parker!



Clement is specifically saying that the apostles have ordained priests who have been approved (by the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and should not be dismissed from their ministry. This is in direct opposition to what the LDS claim - that the priests/bishops do/did not have the approval of the Apostles and thus apostolic succession. The LDS would appear to be those now trying to “dismiss them from the ministry”.

they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry.

I think you are misinterpreting John’s revelations just to fit what you have been taught through the LDS church.

I’m still interested in seeing all of the miracles dones by LDS apostles through the ages as verification of their true apostleship. (Apostles have the “Gift of Miracles”) I haven’t been able to find anything as of yet.

 

[rinnie]

Parker I probally disagree with just about everything you say. But and this is a big But I think you are awesome. You may not be Catholic but you have the patience of a Saint

Now if I could just get you Catholic

 

[Jay53]

Parker I probally disagree with just about everything you say. But and this is a big But I think you are awesome. You may not be Catholic but you have the patience of a Saint

Now if I could just get you Catholic

I enjoy his posts too. They are usually charitable and thought-provoking - even if I think his general premise and thinking are in error.

 

[Tamarack]

Thank you, Parker, for so many excellent posts. They help me understand what LDS people believe. This may be a bit audacious, but I have a suggestion. Borrowing the method suggested by Moroni Chapter 10 in the Book of Mormon, you should study (weeks, months, years?) early church history and the Bible, pray and ask for guidance of the Holy Spirit. Before you start, set aside your presumption that there had to be an apostasy great enough to require reformation 18 centuries later. Look at the evidence with fresh eyes, mind and heart. God bless you.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker I probally disagree with just about everything you say. But and this is a big But I think you are awesome. You may not be Catholic but you have the patience of a Saint

Now if I could just get you Catholic

Rinnie, and also Jay53 and Tamarack,
You have been very kind, and I really appreciated your thoughts and comments.

To have been referred to as “awesome” is about the nicest thing anyone has said about me. You have such a kind heart, Rinnie.

God bless each of you, sincerely wished. I think He is doing that.

 

[lyolee]

I do not think that the first Churches “fell” so much as just “fell” into disrepair and the diluting of many opinions and superstitions. Just as all churches and groups and people who read alot foriegn or superstitious materials, still even do today. The Church is maintained by its People. By each individual, thats what I think.

lyolee.

 

[ParkerD]

Good Morning Parker!



Clement is specifically saying that the apostles have ordained priests who have been approved (by the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and should not be dismissed from their ministry. This is in direct opposition to what the LDS claim - that the priests/bishops do/did not have the approval of the Apostles and thus apostolic succession. The LDS would appear to be those now trying to “dismiss them from the ministry”.

I think you are misinterpreting John’s revelations just to fit what you have been taught through the LDS church.

I’m still interested in seeing all of the miracles dones by LDS apostles through the ages as verification of their true apostleship. (Apostles have the “Gift of Miracles”) I haven’t been able to find anything as of yet.

Jay53,
What I was trying to explain was that the priests and bishops ordained by the Apostles were ordained based on the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but the disconnect came when either the members or other local leaders didn’t accept those appointed leaders (which would be that they were “dismissing them from the ministry”), and there was dissension in the ranks, plus when new leaders needed to be called and the apostles were not directly involved. The Holy Spirit needed to be involved with the members and the leaders at every point, such that dissension would have been minimal. I think John saw all of that dissension coming, in his vision, and saw its ultimate effects including trying to accomodate differences of opinion that would lead to slight changes in doctrines or how the ordinances were done. That is the kind of “drift” that it seems was likely to happen.

As to “miracles”, there have been many and I suppose they are impressive, but the kind of miracle that impresses me the most in Christianity is the Jean Valjean kind of miracle of the heart and soul. (I love Les Miserables–what a powerful musical, despite the heartache of the scenes that show the dark side of humanity! Victor Hugo must have been greatly inspired to write the book he wrote, and then the music of that play is so incredibly beautiful. I love the scenes showing the forgiveness extended by the priest, and then Jean Valjean’s reaction.)

Thanks again for all of your posts, and explanations.

 

[Tamarack]

Thank you, Parker, for so many excellent posts. They help me understand what LDS people believe. This may be a bit audacious, but I have a suggestion. Borrowing the method suggested by Moroni Chapter 10 in the Book of Mormon, you should study (weeks, months, years?) early church history and the Bible, pray and ask for guidance of the Holy Spirit. Before you start, set aside your presumption that there had to be an apostasy great enough to require reformation 18 centuries later. Look at the evidence with fresh eyes, mind and heart. God bless you.

Just to correct the word “reformation” to “restoration” in my prior post…

Thank you, Parker, for so many excellent posts. They help me understand what LDS people believe. This may be a bit audacious, but I have a suggestion. Borrowing the method suggested by Moroni Chapter 10 in the Book of Mormon, you should study (weeks, months, years?) early church history and the Bible, pray and ask for guidance of the Holy Spirit. Before you start, set aside your presumption that there had to be an apostasy great enough to require restoration 18 centuries later. Look at the evidence with fresh eyes, mind and heart. God bless you

 

[lyolee]

Good Morning Parker!



Clement is specifically saying that the apostles have ordained priests who have been approved (by the guidance of the Holy Spirit) and should not be dismissed from their ministry. This is in direct opposition to what the LDS claim - that the priests/bishops do/did not have the approval of the Apostles and thus apostolic succession. The LDS would appear to be those now trying to “dismiss them from the ministry”.

I think you are misinterpreting John’s revelations just to fit what you have been taught through the LDS church.

I’m still interested in seeing all of the miracles done by LDS apostles through the ages as verification of their true apostleship. (Apostles have the “Gift of Miracles”) I haven’t been able to find anything as of yet.

I am not ParkerD, I am lyolee. The men currently invited into the seats of honor merely titled: Apostle, are usually merely from among the lay body of the LDS Church, and are professionals in both business and demeanor. Dallin H. Oaks, Henry B. Eyring, and Jeffery R. Holland were all previously Presidents of the LDS college BYU. And all three, sooner or later were invited by the brethren in Salt Lake City to fill seats which had merely become vacant which are positions merely titled : Apostle. Not a manifesting Apostle as the ancient scriptures have described by miracles in times of old. The LDS group is less than only 200 years old, and its members know almost nothing of The First Church, nor of and Early Church Fathers.

lyolee.