LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[ricko]

Well all I can say is that you’re sort of proving my point here. Let’s say the Catholic church, despite the loss of Apostolic leadership, managed to get most of it right and kept it right for 2,000 years. God is pleased and wants to help out by revealing the fulness of His original teachings. But the Catholic church is so entrenched, they don’t receive it! There had to be a restoration and it couldn’t be from within the church itself.

Christ established His church, he promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it, he promised the Holy Spirit would guide it. The bible says that all was revealed. There was not need of a restoration as there never was an Apostasy. History verifies that. The bible says that the Church would endure until the end of the world, not that a restoration by a man would happen over a thousand years later. The bible does warn us about a different Gospel being preached which fits the LDS.

 

[catholic-rcia]

After I became Catholic, with the help of Cradle Catholics we developed this broshure for Northern Utah. It helps bring truth to the lies told here, out of love for Jesus and His Church. Out of love for the LDS who continue to be lied to about the Catholic faith which is very evident during monthly tours we give of our Church and from those who come wanting to know what we really believe. You would be amazed at how we get the same questions over and over. When I first came to Utah I was given a list of all the bad things about the Catholic Church…one was we worship dead Saints. This list has been handed down since 1950 in this area. When you try to explain the truth about this list ears are very much closed. One thing we ask of those asking is this:

Do you really want to know the answer to your question? You can tell who is open and who is closed at that time.

Here is the Broshure:

**Catholic answers to some common questions **

Did the Catholic Church invent the Mass and the Eucharist in 1000 A.D.?

***St. Justin describes the Mass. (The year is 150 A.D.; he is a martyr who was beheaded in 165 at Rome Italy) ***

“The people gathered together on Sunday, the ‘Lord’s Day’ participated in prayers and hymns, and listened to readings from the Old Testament and from the writings of the apostles. Then as always, bread and wine and water were offered and the words of Jesus at the Last Supper were prayed by the one presiding. The people received the body and blood of Christ, and the Holy Communion was brought to the sick. A collection was taken for the poor and the needy.”

St. Paul wrote: “For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.” (1 Cor 11:26) He also wrote: “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body for we all partake of the one loaf” (1 Cor 11:16-17 and 1 Cor 12).

Through the centuries, the Mass has remained fully intact. The Mass takes place every 2 minutes somewhere on the earth, 7 days a week, all year long except on Good Friday
(1 Cor 11:26).

St. Ignatius of Antioch’s Letter to the Smyrnaeans on the Mass. (The year is 110 A.D.)

He became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena. He wrote:

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not profess that the Eucharist (Jn 6:66) is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.”
It is the Mass that has brought Christ into the present. It is the sign given as you contemplate all of chapter 6 in John’s gospel.

Is Jesus crucified again and again at each Mass?

The Church has always taught that Jesus died once for all (1 Peter 3:18). God is acting outside of time here, making the one sacrifice present at different locations in time. What Jesus accomplished once for all on the Cross 2,000 years ago has the power to save us today. His work of salvation is just as real today as it was then (see Gal. 2:19-21 and 2 Cor. 5:14-15)

Why do Catholics admire the Cross?

The Cross is the greatest symbol for all Christians. Satan hates the cross and the Mass because they are perpetual reminders of his defeat. The Cross in the Catholic Church, with Christ in his agony reminds us of our sin, what we have done, what we have failed to do, and what Christ has done for us. We ask the Church, all the saints and angels to pray for each of us to the Lord our God. That Crucifix shows us how much our God loves us by laying down His life for us. By pouring out His love and mercy to all who come face to face with their own sin, He teaches us forgiveness. The Cross teaches us humility, which is the opposite of pride. It reminds us of who Christ is, and who we are. “Jesus came to pay a debt He didn’t owe, because we owed a debt we couldn’t pay” - Unknown. (Lk. 9:23-25, Col. 2:14, Eph. 2:16, Col. 1:21-23, Mk. 10:21)

Continued …

 

[catholic-rcia]

**What about Scripture, where it clearly speaks about a “falling away”? **

Examples of this Scripture can be found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Matt. 7:15, Acts 20:29 and 2 Peter 2:1. The Catholic Church is not a Church built on the fall of another’s faith. It was established by Christ because of the fall of Adam and Eve. As Catholics, we certainly agree there will be apostasies or failure of faith - we all have them within ourselves. We are all fallen and in need of our Savior. Forgiveness and reconciliation through Christ is more than just a vow, but rather a promise from the vow itself, as this vow is Christ. We accept that there have already been many apostasies, but the Bible has never spoken of a total Apostasy from what Christ built, (Matt. 7:24-27, 1 Tim. 3:15) as continued through the apostles and their successors. We will always have problems to deal with here (Matt. 13:24-30). The Church has never been a reward for the well, but rather, it is a hospital for the sick. Jesus clearly said, as a physician; “Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Matt. 28:20). He sees us through the good and the bad, the wind, the rain, and even the floods. “Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18-19) The biggest falling away from Christ is found in John, Chapter 6 (note 6:66) Most of his disciples leave him because what he was telling them was to hard for them to believe. The 12 apostles stayed and were rewarded with the Last Supper, and the Mass was instituted.

**Do Catholics worship Mary, Saints and Statues at Mass? **

One way to look at this is to look around your home. Do you have pictures of your family? The images in a Catholic Church are “family”. Our lives in Christ are built on the shoulders of the Holy Family, the Family of Saints, and the “family” that makes up the “community” of Christ. When Catholics bow to an altar or a statue “family”, it is always in reverence to Christ. No Catholic would worship an alter or a statue for its own sake. If you have ever been to a monument that honors those who sacrificed for our country, you have probably knelt and may have prayed before them. Monuments, like the cross and the image of Mother Mary, are there to remind us all of the sacrifice made to bring the “family of man” out of sin’s bondage (Heb. 12:1)

***“The Weeds in the Grain”: this is our Community ***
(Matt 13:24-30)
He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up? He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters:

“First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”

**http://utahmission.com/Images/Prodigal_son.jpg “The Prodigal Son”: this is our Community **
(Luke 15:24)
The parable of the Prodigal Son in the Gospel of Luke is familiar to all of us, as we are all in need of our Savior. The Prodigal Son has the nerve to ask for his inheritance even before his father has died. Then, without thought or good conscience, he goes out and spends every last penny on those things that only the world could offer. Not until he is confronted with hopeless failure and a deep despair does he yearn to return home, to his father’s embrace. Repentant and willing to do anything possible to win back his father’s love, he begins his journey back home. As he approaches his home, to his surprise, his father comes running towards him with open arms. He embraces his son, just glad that his son has returned home to him. He gives no mind to what he has done and what he has failed to do. It’s a breathtaking story of God’s Mercy for all of us, God’s patient grace, and His willingness to welcome each of us home into His loving and forgiving arms forever.

“For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”

HOPE**
**
It is our hope that we can share the love of Christ with you. Jesus did not come to condemn you or me; Jesus came as a physician to heal us, and to save us. As we all say together at Mass, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed.” To know God’s love through Jesus is the ability to give God’s love to others - to help others find a special place in this life where one can go to receive unconditional love that only God, through Jesus can give, and to find peace and true happiness in good times as well as in bad. The Miracle of the Mass offers this gift.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Well all I can say is that you’re sort of proving my point here. [SIGN]Let’s say [/SIGN]the Catholic church, despite the loss of Apostolic leadership, managed to get most of it right and kept it right for 2,000 years. God is pleased and wants to help out by revealing the fulness of His original teachings. But the Catholic church is so entrenched, they don’t receive it! There had to be a restoration and it couldn’t be from within the church itself.

How about lets not say because its not true. You remind me of one of them people that if you keep saying it maybe it will come true. Well it won’t. It never happened. Why can you not accept that. What part of the RCC being led by the HS do you not get?

Let me explain this to you one more time, then maybe you can understand it. Jesus promised to lead us by the Power of the Holy Spirit until he comes in glory! So no matter what happens the Apostles cannot fail if they are teaching what has been taught by the HS, You get it now?

 

[rmcmullan]

Catholic-Rica: Sorry to say this but you sound like you’re flipping out.

rinnie: Sorry but I still don’t get it when you say

So no matter what happens the Apostles cannot fail if they are teaching what has been taught by the HS, You get it now?

There are no Apostles and I do not accept the Apostolic Succession so there’s no point in discussing what they would teach since there are none and I’m sure you’re not referring to the LDS Apostles.

If what you mean is that the Apostles and Bishops, their Apostolic successors, have mind melded through the Holy Spirit then I would just hang my head in disbelief. Then all bishops would agree and we know that not to be the case.

 

[Jay53]

I still would like to know if the LDS “Apostles” have the Gift of Miracles as given to Jesus’ first apostles to verify their true apostleship?

1. The Gift of Miracles. Each apostle was endowed with the gift of miracles to enable him to perform signs validating his ministry as an apostle (2 Cor. 12:12). These manifestations provided motives of credibility showing the divine authority of the apostles and, by extension, those they appointed as successors. catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0107bt.asp

 

[rmcmullan]

I still would like to know if the LDS “Apostles” have the Gift of Miracles as given to Jesus’ first apostles to verify their true apostleship?

What, are you seeking for a sign?

 

[Jay53]

What, are you seeking for a sign?

Yes. If they are true apostles, they should have the Gift of Miracles to verify their apostleship. Or they should have something to verify their true apostleship, because I think we also need to keep Matthew 24:24-25 in mind as well:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

I also asked another question earlier that no one answered, but perhaps I need to start another thread with it.

I guess I probably need to ask the same question of Mormons that I asked of Muslims which is: Why do you believe in the prophethood of Joseph Smith when he and his teachings contradicted previous scriptures? (I understand that for both Mormons and Muslims who have been “born into” the faith, that those teachings are all that they know and so, it is, in part, simply a matter of faith.) But given that Jesus told us to watch out for false prophets and St. Paul warned us that even if an angel preached a different gospel that we should not believe him, I don’t understand why people believed this different gospel.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Matthew 7:15

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galations 1:8-9

So, I guess I am curious as to why, when Joseph Smith came along and claimed to be a prophet and was preaching a different gospel which contradicted what the Apostles had taught and what had been passed down through the Church, that people accepted that? In what way was his claim to prophethood any more convincing than Muhammad’s in the 7th century?

 

[rmcmullan]

Jay53, you can stop bawling about how LDS and Catholic beliefs are different. We’re talking about LDS Question - How did the first church fail? So try to stick to that one.

If there aren’t enough warnings in the New Testament about seeking for a sign, you can look to the LDS scriptures too. It’s almost comical that you would seek for a sign. Incredible!

 

[Jay53]

Jay53, you can stop bawling about how LDS and Catholic beliefs are different. We’re talking about LDS Question - How did the first church fail? So try to stick to that one.

If there aren’t enough warnings in the New Testament about seeking for a sign, you can look to the LDS scriptures too. It’s almost comical that you would seek for a sign. Incredible!

What bawling about how LDS and Catholic beliefs are different - I’m talking about how the beliefs of *Jesus and His apostles *are different from Joseph Smith’s and LDS beliefs. Joseph Smith contradicted those beliefs and actually had the gall to use Sacred Scripture in an attempt to justify his false beliefs. I’m just trying to figure out why anyone should believe Joseph Smith when we were warned by Jesus himself and then His apostles not to fall for it. From what I’ve read so far, no one has adequately answered how the first Church supposedly failed.

And I would also like to point out that my questions are not asked to be combative or argumentative. I am genuinely curious as to why Mormons believe Joseph Smith, but would dismiss Muhammad as being a false prophet. ?? Muhammad received his revelations from an angel and did not deny them to the day he died. What makes Joseph Smith’s prophethood more convincing than Muhammad’s?

I asked about the Gift of Miracles because Jesus’ Apostles were given that gift when they were first sent out to preach the Gospel. The LDS Church is the one claiming that they have a restoration of this apostleship.

2 Corinthians 12:12 (New American Standard Bible)

12The (A)signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.

 

[rmcmullan]

What bawling about how LDS and Catholic beliefs are different - I’m talking about how the beliefs of Jesus and His apostles are different from Joseph Smith’s and LDS beliefs

Aw, come on Jay53, you’re not even trying, are you? That’s such a lame argument, really I expect much better.

Also, you’re sorely deluded if you think seeking for signs is a good thing.

 

[Javl]

Aw, come on Jay53, you’re not even trying, are you? That’s such a lame argument, really I expect much better.

Also, you’re sorely deluded if you think seeking for signs is a good thing.

I still don’t understand how you and others can follow the “teachings” of a man who claims to have received golden plates from heaven in “reformed Egyptian” and used a huge pair of spectacles called the Urim and Thummim to translate these “writings” ( I bet no LDS would know what the Urim and Thummim actually are ). I most certainly would look at all this with a jaundiced eye.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Jay53]

Aw, come on Jay53, you’re not even trying, are you? That’s such a lame argument, really I expect much better.

Also, you’re sorely deluded if you think seeking for signs is a good thing.

Avoiding answering the question, are we?

And you are sorely deluded if you think we should just believe any person that comes along with a message claiming to be from God without testing their veracity, *especially *when their message contradicts God’s previous Scriptures and teachings.

8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:8-9

(emphasis mine)

 

[rmcmullan]

I was sort of hoping rinnie would answer because as I see it, having a pope at the head of your church is a denial of the Apostolic Succession. Either the local bishops are in charge and they have no disagreements or there is a need for someone to oversee the church, the role Christ assigned to the Apostles.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Lets meet some of the LDS Apostles as to the relation of the Catholic Bishops…where they live…what they do…how some have come to die.

I was sort of hoping rinnie would answer because as I see it, having a pope at the head of your church is a denial of the Apostolic Succession. Either the local bishops are in charge and they have no disagreements or there is a need for someone to oversee the church, the role Christ assigned to the Apostles.

You can do a Catechism Search on your question here. I would get the exact page for you but can’t do all of the work for you. Because of the Catechism the Catholic Church is pretty much wide open to anyone who wants to know anyhting about Christ’s Church. You can get the meat before the milk, or the milk before the meat. Takes about a year to learn some main points about the Church. to fall in love with Jesus before one is baptised. Jesus taught for 3 years before the Apostles eyes were opened as to whom Jesus is while He was breaking bread. Like the loaves and fish’s were multiplied to feed the thousands, so two have been the Apsostles…Bishops…to cover the whole earth, to be present in the trenches.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It would be interesting to see where the Catholic Church’s Apostles are, the Bishops in relation to where the 12 LDS Apostles are today. Look up their lives, how and where they are living. Who has spoken out with humble Courage to the poor and afflicted, to Governments that suppress God given freedom and such. Who has recently given their own lives to help build up the Kingdom of God, not for themselves rather for the Love of Others in Jesus Christ. Of course I am tempted to place a couple of our own Priest and Bishops here but I will refrain for now. This is a great test, testimony you might say to the One Holy Catholic Church that Jesus established 2000 years ago. Established for all sinners so that they would have a place to turn to in order to have their sins forgiven in order to have hope of better things to come in Jesus Christ, through Him, In Him, for Him.

The greatest thing that will come out of this, presenting such people is that we will be able to get to know them, where their hearts are, where they were. Through example we will be changed in one form or another.

I hope this takes, we can start presenting the fruit from both faiths. This has everything to do with the posting, the question posed.

In Christ Jesus
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[TheosisM]

I do not think that Jay53 is “seeking after a sign”. What he is saying is that the Apostles in the Bible had the gift of miracles. If the Mormon apostles are apostles just like the Biblical ones, then one of their defining marks should be the gift of miracles.

2 Corinthians 12:12
12Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

He is not seeking after a sign, he is just asking, ultimately, how the Mormon apostles are like the Biblical ones, with “signs and wonders” being part of that.

 

[Javl]

I was sort of hoping rinnie would answer because as I see it, having a pope at the head of your church is a denial of the Apostolic Succession. Either the local bishops are in charge and they have no disagreements or there is a need for someone to oversee the church, the role Christ assigned to the Apostles.

The Pope IS a bishop. He is the Bishop of the diocese of Rome. Since Peter is considered the first bishop of Rome and Peter was the Chief Apostle, how does having a Pope deny Apostolic Succession? All Bishops are the successors of the Apostles.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rmcmullan]

The Pope IS a bishop. He is the Bishop of the diocese of Rome. Since Peter is considered the first bishop of Rome and Peter was the Chief Apostle, how does having a Pope deny Apostolic Succession? …

I think it’s really far-fetched to claim that Peter was a Pope! He was an Apostle–you can check the gospel of John, it makes it pretty darn clear. If there’s a Biblical record of Peter being either a Pope or Bishop, I’d love to see it.

Check out Act 10 on Peter’s calling. It was to both Jew and Gentile. Before that, the Apostles were each going to judge the tribes of Israel (Luke 22:30)–that sound like much more like a oversight calling than a local leader!

You can’t have a the local leaders being called to give oversight if you don’t believe the church needs oversight, if they’re all mind-melded with the HS. This is where the divide by zero happens. This is where all the rivers run up stream and time flows backwards. And now to claim that the Apostle Peter was a Pope!

 

[rmcmullan]

He is not seeking after a sign, he is just asking, ultimately, how the Mormon apostles are like the Biblical ones, with “signs and wonders” being part of that.

I’m not sure why you guys are pushing this but then, it just occurred to me that you don’t have this scripture:

D&C 63:7 And he that seeketh signs shall see signs, but not unto salvation.
8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.
12 Wherefore, I, the Lord, am not pleased with those among you who have sought after signs and wonders for faith, and not for the good of men unto my glory.

It’s probably a bit much to take in all at once but here the Lord is saying that people who seek signs are looking for shortcuts to faith and usually end up falling away anyway. In the Bible he tells the Pharisees that it is like adultery–all the fun and sensation without any of the commitment or hard work that makes a relationship last.

Another point is that once you’ve witnessed a “sign” and you don’t act on it, it only brings you condemnation.

 

[Jay53]

My questions are about “signs” per se, although you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that Jesus’ apostles were given the Gift of Miracles, that LDS apostles do not have.

My question is more about verifying the veracity of a prophet and those supposedly ‘ordained’ after him. I used as an example Muhammad. Why don’t you believe Muhammad? He claims to be a prophet, received revelations from an “angel”, had his revelations recited over the 23 years of his “ministry” and refused to recant his prophethood even 'til the day he died. Why don’t you accept his prophethood?