LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[Answersplease]

…which to me means that fathers would take their role as head of their home and provider for their family very seriously with no excuses, thus alleviating a burden upon many mothers who find themselves in a provider role for their family…

(colors, emphasis, and underline added)

Margaret Toscano was excommunicated from the LDS Church in 2000 for disregarding warnings from church leadership and continuing to write and speak critically about the role of women in Mormonism and the theological doctrine of the Heavenly Mother.
…

Toscano currently teaches classics at the University of Utah.

How is this message conveyed to girls growing up in this church?

…a young Mormon woman in her early 30s came to me. She knows that I talk about women’s issues. She was very upset, wanted to have a sympathetic ear,…
…

…she recently went to her bishop to tell him some of her concerns. He’s a friend of hers, so she was feeling that she could have a sympathetic ear here, and she was more or less shocked when, instead of being sympathetic to some of her concerns, he told her that she was being influenced by Satan and that if she were only not a working mother – that her real problem here is that she’s a working mother and that, because she’s a working mother, she’s now opened herself to the influence of Satan.
…

And yet, by questioning them, now suddenly she’s a pawn of the devil. …

Read the full interview for Margaret Toscano:

pbs.org/mormons/interviews/toscano.html

 

[mfbukowski]

Well regarding Elias and Elijah, I will quote the Douay-Rheims version, since translation seems to be an issue

Matthew 17: 12-13
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead. 10 And his disciples asked him, saying: Why then do the scribes say that Elias must come first? 11 But he answering, said to them: Elias indeed shall come, and restore all things. 12 But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them. 13 Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist

So if “Elias” is John the Baptist, clearly the term “Elias” must be a title and not the name of a person.

An “elias” is a forerunner or one who comes before.

I am coming in late in this thread- has this been said before?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
Personally, I was thinking that if they pick up one end of the stick, they have picked up the other end of the stick, and since it has been conveyed that they did pick up the one end, then great–pick up the other end and transform the world’s economies. I think that will be fantastic.

The Millenium comes about not through some magical transformation that brings an economic well-being to the majority of the world instead of a small minority of the world. It comes about through fathers taking on their dual responsibility as head of the home and provider for their family, with no excuses and no looking to the governments of the world or anyone else than their own two hands and their mind and their education and their ingenuity and resourcefulness.

The Elijah prophecy wasn’t just nice words on a page. It was pre-Millenial, in that when people follow the Messiah with all their heart they will establish a Millenial society where the fathers will take on their responsibility with the inspiration of heaven to support them and the resourcefulness to get the job done–meaning square up their shoulders and care for their family while supporting the nurturing role of their wife, whether she works outside the home or not. The peace of the Millenium will include economic peace as well as spiritual peace.

So you are sticking with your deadbeat dad stance then.

 

[RebeccaJ]

finally, that the heart of the children would truly turn to their fathers (meaning their ancestors) and wonder about their salvation, desire their salvation, and yearn for their salvation through the plan of salvation given by the Lord, Jesus Christ to all of humankind.

Yes, I’m sure you know when you look at your ancestors…they were Catholic.

 

[ParkerD]

So you are sticking with your deadbeat dad stance then.

Zaffiroborant,
I have no idea the statistics (you tell me?), but it does appear that a few nations that are predominantly Catholic (if I have understood correctly from what I have read) struggle with the economic well-being of their people, and have a level of poverty that is unfortunate. I certainly don’t blame that on their religion, but I have no question that God will bless those families where the father takes his role squarely on his shoulders and seeks divine help in carrying out that role, seeks an education when he is young before marriage to prepare for that role, and votes for leadership who will enact good laws that protect freedoms and uphold the dignity of the human spirit and quash dishonesty among government officials that leads to the harmful effect of mistrust within a society. I think the blessings of economic well-being can happen in many, many places in the world in our lifetime as fathers assume that role beginning when they are children in school for their education.

So, it is a case-by-case scenario.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I’m sure you know when you look at your ancestors…they were Catholic.

Not a one of them that I have learned of, but dozens of Covenanters, a few Baptists, some Presbyterians, and I assume some Anglicans earlier in the ancestral lines. Some were early colonial Virginians and some settled directly into South Carolina from Scotland.

 

[Xavierlives]

Well regarding Elias and Elijah, I will quote the Douay-Rheims version, since translation seems to be an issue

So if “Elias” is John the Baptist, clearly the term “Elias” must be a title and not the name of a person.

An “elias” is a forerunner or one who comes before.

I am coming in late in this thread- has this been said before?

I think everyone is accepting that Elijah = Elias (Greek)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
I have no idea the statistics (you tell me?), but it does appear that a few nations that are predominantly Catholic (if I have understood correctly from what I have read) struggle with the economic well-being of their people, and have a level of poverty that is unfortunate. I certainly don’t blame that on their religion, but I have no question that God will bless those families where the father takes his role squarely on his shoulders and seeks divine help in carrying out that role, seeks an education when he is young before marriage to prepare for that role, and votes for leadership who will enact good laws that protect freedoms and uphold the dignity of the human spirit and quash dishonesty among government officials that leads to the harmful effect of mistrust within a society. I think the blessings of economic well-being can happen in many, many places in the world in our lifetime as fathers assume that role beginning when they are children in school for their education.

So, it is a case-by-case scenario.

This sounds like a cross between prosperity gospel and Helmuths charity thread on MADB.

 

[Xavierlives]

Zaffiroborant,
I have no idea the statistics (you tell me?), but it does appear that a few nations that are predominantly Catholic (if I have understood correctly from what I have read) struggle with the economic well-being of their people, and have a level of poverty that is unfortunate. I certainly don’t blame that on their religion, but I have no question that God will bless those families where the father takes his role squarely on his shoulders and seeks divine help in carrying out that role, seeks an education when he is young before marriage to prepare for that role, and votes for leadership who will enact good laws that protect freedoms and uphold the dignity of the human spirit and quash dishonesty among government officials that leads to the harmful effect of mistrust within a society. I think the blessings of economic well-being can happen in many, many places in the world in our lifetime as fathers assume that role beginning when they are children in school for their education.

So, it is a case-by-case scenario.

Fortunately, that isn’t a religous thing. In fact I think you see more people planning families and children later in life.

Of the 5 children in my family, I started the earliest, at age 28. The others were (33,34,35 and one is unmarried).

 

[mfbukowski]

I think everyone is accepting that Elijah = Elias (Greek)

That’s not what I am saying. It is clear in Matt 17 that Elias is John the Baptist. Cheeesh, didn’t you read my post?

 

[mfbukowski]

This sounds like a cross between prosperity gospel and Helmuths charity thread on MADB.

Do you post over there?

 

[ParkerD]

This sounds like a cross between prosperity gospel and Helmuths charity thread on MADB.

Zaffiroborant,
If your use of the term “prosperity gospel” is intended to be a negative connotation, then I don’t suppose you have spent much time thinking about the promises conveyed in Numbers and Deuteronomy and Isaiah and Malachi in the Old Testament, since they convey that as a group of people (the house of Israel) returns to following the true gospel and the true God of Israel, that return will be accompanied by economic blessings from heaven–not riches and wealth, but economic wellness collectively with the physical earth and the elements becoming abundant in bringing forth the “good of the land”. But such a people would certainly need to be exercising faith in God and have the expectation that His promises as given by Moses and Isaiah and Malachi are true promises. A lack of faith in such promises would automatically lessen the impact of the earnestness of belief that would be foundational in order for the blessings to flow. Certainly, if the undergirding sentiment was that a “prosperity” among a group is a bad thing, then that would justify each father thinking “we were not meant to prosper–it is God’s will that we be poor” and there would be a multi-generational expectation of remaining in a similar condition.

 

[rinnie]

Not a one of them that I have learned of, but dozens of Covenanters, a few Baptists, some Presbyterians, and I assume some Anglicans earlier in the ancestral lines. Some were early colonial Virginians and some settled directly into South Carolina from Scotland.

Go back futher Parker my Love. I promise you one thing. If they were Christians they were indeed Catholic. And if you trace back to Anglicans you are not far from the Catholic faith. Anglicans and us are very close in many many teachings.

Actually as we speak the Pope is very close to BRINGING IN THE SHEEP With the hope and Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ it will happen very very soon. ITs in the makings!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not a one of them that I have learned of, but dozens of Covenanters, a few Baptists, some Presbyterians, and I assume some Anglicans earlier in the ancestral lines. Some were early colonial Virginians and some settled directly into South Carolina from Scotland.

Yes, my line is similar, a bunch of Protestants. As Rinnie said, go back further, or just think about how long Protestantism has been around.

 

[Xavierlives]

That’s not what I am saying. It is clear in Matt 17 that Elias is John the Baptist. Cheeesh, didn’t you read my post?

I did read your post. Until you arrived, we (including your Mormon brother) had reached a consensus that Elijah and Elias were the same person. Since the Greek Text, which the disciples had quoted used the greek name Elias, Christ reciprocated.

And yes, you are correct. The disciples said, why does it say Elias must return? And Jesus responded, Elias has.

 

[rinnie]

My point that I would like to stress and have on other threads is in order to say the the first church failed 2 things would have to happen.

First you would call Jesus Christ a liar.

Second you would have to deny the existance of the Trinity. In turn you would have to deny the word of God altogether.

For CHrist said I am the Father are one.

For Christ say I am sending the advocate the HOLY SPIRIT to lead the Church until the end of time. In order to say the Church failed you would have to agree that the Holy Spirt failed and in order to agree that the Holy SPirit failed you would have to agree that God Failed. Which would be a lie. So either God lied or whoever says the Church failed lied. It is not God. We have a God that would never lie to his children, we have a father that would never leave us orphans. We have a Father who loved us so much he died for us on the Cross, rose again and is alive and well in the Eurcharist in the RCC. The CC has not failed nor will it ever fail. THe words of God are clear. The gates of hades will never prevail. The CC will be here until the end of time. The Lord said I will send you the advocate the HOLY SPIRIT which is indeed the LIVING CHRIST.

 

[mfbukowski]

And yes, you are correct. The disciples said, why does it say Elias must return? And Jesus responded, Elias has.

Yes, and then he clearly stated that he was talking about John the Baptist as BEING “Elias”.

In this case “Elias” was clearly NOT Elijah. Totally clear and unmistakable

 

[mfbukowski]

My point that I would like to stress and have on other threads is in order to say the the first church failed 2 things would have to happen.

First you would call Jesus Christ a liar.

Second you would have to deny the existance of the Trinity. In turn you would have to deny the word of God altogether.

For CHrist said I am the Father are one.

For Christ say I am sending the advocate the HOLY SPIRIT to lead the Church until the end of time. In order to say the Church failed you would have to agree that the Holy Spirt failed and in order to agree that the Holy SPirit failed you would have to agree that God Failed. Which would be a lie. So either God lied or whoever says the Church failed lied. It is not God. We have a God that would never lie to his children, we have a father that would never leave us orphans. We have a Father who loved us so much he died for us on the Cross, rose again and is alive and well in the Eurcharist in the RCC. The CC has not failed nor will it ever fail. THe words of God are clear. The gates of hades will never prevail. The CC will be here until the end of time. The Lord said I will send you the advocate the HOLY SPIRIT which is indeed the LIVING CHRIST.

Obviously this is only one interpretation, depending on the definition of “one”, and assuming that no one had the freedom to ignore the Holy Spirit’s inspiration.

In other words, it implies determinism- that they could do nothing BUT follow the spirit.

If people can make mistakes and sin, the church can make mistakes too. If the church cannot make mistakes, we have no freedom.

If we have no freedom, we can sin and have no consequences, because “it wasn’t our fault”.

Please note that my point stands regardless of whether or not the church did or did not in FACT fail. The only scenario in which the apostasy was impossible was if humans have no freedom.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Please note that my point stands regardless of whether or not the church did or did not in FACT fail. The only scenario in which the apostasy was impossible was if humans have no freedom.

hmmm…what of the mormon scripture that says the mormon church will never fail? Have you forfeited freedom for this promise?

 

[TheosisM]

hmmm…what of the mormon scripture that says the mormon church will never fail? Have you forfeited freedom for this promise?

This is an interesting question. Is it possible for the LDS church to fail? I believe that ParkerD said a few weeks ago that there is a “checks and balances” system in place that would prevent this (which apparently was not present in the early Church). This sounds like speculation though.

If agency allowed for the Great Apostasy to occur, does it not allow for another Apostasy to occur, in theory?