LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

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mfbukowski said:
Obviously this is only one interpretation, depending on the definition of “one”, and assuming that no one had the freedom to ignore the Holy Spirit’s inspiration.

In other words, it implies determinism- that they could do nothing BUT follow the spirit.

If people can make mistakes and sin, the church can make mistakes too. If the church cannot make mistakes, we have no freedom.

If we have no freedom, we can sin and have no consequences, because “it wasn’t our fault”.

Please note that my point stands regardless of whether or not the church did or did not in FACT fail. The only scenario in which the apostasy was impossible was if humans have no freedom.
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What does free will to sin have to do with the Holy Spirit leading the Catholic Church. Who ever said that we as humans do not fail? Who ever we do not sin? I said the Church will never fail because it is being led by the Holy Spirit. Can we turn away from the true teachings of the Holy Spirit sure. But how does us turning away from the Church make the Church fail?🤷
 
mfbukowski said:
It says he would not reject his PEOPLE. God does not reject his children.

He may reject their worship, as with those who worship idols etc.

He always loves his children. BIG DIFFERENCE

You are not getting it still in relation to Matt 17.

Why does it need a prophecy? I will yell to get your attention if I have to

IT SAYS THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS ELIAS

Ok? got that? Douay-Rheims and everything-- go back and check the quote

Edit: Emphasis added

12 But I say to you, that Elias is already come, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they had a mind. So also the Son of man shall suffer from them. 13 Then the disciples understood, that he had spoken to them of John the Baptist
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John the Baptism was indeed the last Prophet. Him and Jesus were it. Again could you please tell me what any prophet could possibly DO or TELL us that Jesus did not accomplish? Please. Just one thing!
 
mfbukowski said:
Oh my gosh, you people are driving me nuts!

I know they are the same name. That is irrelevant. The point is that in Matt 27, JESUS SAYS THAT JOHN THE BAPTIST IS ELIAS. The name “Elias” therefore is a title, unless Jesus was confused, which I strongly doubt.

I have about had it here. You can say the same thing again and again and nobody gets it. I don’t expect you to agree, just to understand English and respond as if we are speaking the same language.
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Maybe a little coherency would help us.

If you agree Elias is Elijah, then what are we talking about?
mfbukowski said:
Thanks

It seems like you are the only one around here who actually reads the posts. There may be prophecies, but I am not aware of them. Remember, they would have to be in the standard works to qualify, not a statement by a leader which was not canonized scripture

I suppose I will stay as long as there is at least one person to talk to!

Maybe the answer is that I will respond only to those posters who actually care to interact.
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We are happy to have discussions with people but you popped in and started a discussion about Elias and Elijah, that had just concluded. So I am trying to figure out what your point is. (and yes I have read your posts, and no, I still don’t understand what point you are making.)

So, if you would still like to have a conversation, reframe it for me, please. 😉
 
rinnie said:
What does free will to sin have to do with the Holy Spirit leading the Catholic Church. Who ever said that we as humans do not fail? Who ever we do not sin? I said the Church will never fail because it is being led by the Holy Spirit. Can we turn away from the true teachings of the Holy Spirit sure. But how does us turning away from the Church make the Church fail?🤷
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What is “the church” but human beings?

If human beings can fail, the church can fail. How can the holy spirit guide the church without guiding human beings?

Have you never thought of that? Each and every - popes included- person is a sinner who has made mistakes and has sinned.

The point is if the Holy Spirit FORCES us, we humans, to do what is right, we are not free to choose what is wrong.

If on the other hand we CAN choose what is wrong, there is nothing to prevent the human beings who make up “the church” to go astray either.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Seems bukowski has come over here to vent his frustration at Catholics…something the mods at MADB wouldn’t let him do there.🤷
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I have not said one thing “anti-Catholic” at all. I perhaps have done so in the past, and I apologize for that. If I ever did that, it was out of line.

If discussing the apostasy in a rational way is “anti-catholic”, I don’t know what your definition is. And in making my points, I am applying the same standards to Mormonism as well. There are many who argue that the LDS church is in “apostasy”, and that is a logical possibility. It is NOT in apostasy, but it is something which could in principle happen. So I am applying my “anti-Catholic” statements just as much to Mormonism as I am to Catholicsm.

And unfortunately, the mods over there DO allow a LOT of “anti-catholic” stuff- and fyi I have never even had a comment made by a moderator about my posts on ANY board.
 
Xavierlives said:
Maybe a little coherency would help us.

If you agree Elias is Elijah, then what are we talking about?

We are happy to have discussions with people but you popped in and started a discussion about Elias and Elijah, that had just concluded. So I am trying to figure out what your point is. (and yes I have read your posts, and no, I still don’t understand what point you are making.)

So, if you would still like to have a conversation, reframe it for me, please. 😉
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The question was raised about Elijah and Elias. Yes, they are the same name, and yes, the person named Elijah and/or Elias is the one who sealed the heavens and left earth in a fiery chariot etc.

But it is LDS doctrine that the WORD “Elias” is also a TITLE for a predecessor, or one who goes before, as evidenced in Matt 17 where Jesus calls John the Baptist “Elias”.

That is all I was saying. No more, no less.

The problem was that you kept repeating that Elias and Elijah were the same person, which wasn’t even in dispute.

You know how “Adam” refers first to the guy in the garden of Eden with Eve etc, but then also Paul speaks of the savior as being the “second Adam”-- so “Adam” is a name, but it is also a title.

Same thing for “Elias”. Very simple point.

I hope that is clearer this time.

It would be like saying that Steve Jobs of Apple computer is an “Edison”- you would be comparing Steve Jobs to Edison.

And then, pretend we make up a society to honor those who are great inventors and we give out awards to those individuals annually- at that presentation someone might say “And this year’s Edison is “Xavierlives” for his great contribution by inventing the Whatsis!”

Edison in this case would be both a name of a person and a title for the winner of the award.
 
mfbukowski said:
The question was raised about Elijah and Elias. Yes, they are the same name, and yes, the person named Elijah and/or Elias is the one who sealed the heavens and left earth in a fiery chariot etc.

But it is LDS doctrine that the WORD “Elias” is also a TITLE for a predecessor, or one who goes before, as evidenced in Matt 17 where Jesus calls John the Baptist “Elias”.

That is all I was saying. No more, no less.

The problem was that you kept repeating that Elias and Elijah were the same person, which wasn’t even in dispute.

You know how “Adam” refers first to the guy in the garden of Eden with Eve etc, but then also Paul speaks of the savior as being the “second Adam”-- so “Adam” is a name, but it is also a title.

Same thing for “Elias”. Very simple point.

I hope that is clearer this time.

It would be like saying that Steve Jobs of Apple computer is an “Edison”- you would be comparing Steve Jobs to Edison.

And then, pretend we make up a society to honor those who are great inventors and we give out awards to those individuals annually- at that presentation someone might say “And this year’s Edison is “Xavierlives” for his great contribution by inventing the Whatsis!”

Edison in this case would be both a name of a person and a title for the winner of the award.
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Ok. So just a couple of questions before we head down this path:
  1. Does this title diliniation change Malachi interpretation in any fashion?
  2. I don’t see a contradiction in NT use of this, the OT doesn’t do it, right?
  3. Is this belief occur because John denied he was Elijah (only because the scripture doesn’t deny it)?
(there will probably be a couple of follow-ups.
 
RebeccaJ said:
D&C 138:44

Also Gospel Principles chapter 17.
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Hi, RebeccaJ,
I suppose that you would be aware that D & C 138:44, which is a passage from the description Joseph F Smith wrote of his vision of the redemption of the dead which he had just a month before his death, is a direct reference to Daniel 2:44, so it was a Biblical prophecy that was being reiterated.
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, RebeccaJ,
I suppose that you would be aware that D & C 138:44, which is a passage from the description Joseph F Smith wrote of his vision of the redemption of the dead which he had just a month before his death, is a direct reference to Daniel 2:44, so it was a Biblical prophecy that was being reiterated.
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Yes ParkerD, I know this. I also know that yet again, mormons think a prophecy about Christ establishing His Kingdom, nearly 2000 years ago, is somehow about mormonism. It isn’t.

Put the center on Christ, and His ministry, not mormon narcissism.

PS: Our Lord made this prophecy personal to Himself. Luke 20:17-18.
 
mfbukowski said:
What is “the church” but human beings?

If human beings can fail, the church can fail. How can the holy spirit guide the church without guiding human beings?

Have you never thought of that? Each and every - popes included- person is a sinner who has made mistakes and has sinned.

The point is if the Holy Spirit FORCES us, we humans, to do what is right, we are not free to choose what is wrong.

If on the other hand we CAN choose what is wrong, there is nothing to prevent the human beings who make up “the church” to go astray either.
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For us the Church is the living Christ. It is led by the Holy Spirit not human beings as you put it. That is what I guess is the big difference from our faith. We know we are not led by Human beings we are led by Christ.
 
RebeccaJ said:
D&C 138:44

Also Gospel Principles chapter 17.
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43 Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;
44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;
45 Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration;
46 And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there.
47 The Prophet Elijah was to plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to their fathers,
48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fullness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.
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Well I didn’t look up the Daniel, but this is fairly debatable as to if it applies to the church or to the millenial era, since that is the context.

And of course a quote from Gospel Principles is not a “prophecy”.
 
rinnie said:
For us the Church is the living Christ. It is led by the Holy Spirit not human beings as you put it. That is what I guess is the big difference from our faith. We know we are not led by Human beings we are led by Christ.
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We also believe we are led by Christ.

But that is not the point. You are either missing it or ignoring it. I suspect the latter.

The church (both) is made up of imperfect people.

How does Christ lead the church? Through people or not?

People are sinners and have the option to follow Christ or not.

How can he lead it if not through people? It makes no sense.
 
mfbukowski said:
Well I didn’t look up the Daniel, but this is fairly debatable as to if it applies to the church or to the millenial era, since that is the context.

And of course a quote from Gospel Principles is not a “prophecy”.
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Maybe you should get you and ParkerD on the same page. He says this prophecy is saying your church won’t fail, and has argued other times that it cannot. You are saying it can. Me, I think it is a false religion, so whatever way you want to twist scripture around in order to prop up a false religion is up to you. It would just be an interesting novelty if you could agree on which way to twist.

Gospel Priciples is not prophecy, but it does explain the LDS view of that prophecy. You know this, so what is your point, exactly?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Maybe you should get you and ParkerD on the same page. He says this prophecy is saying your church won’t fail, and has argued other times that it cannot. You are saying it can. Me, I think it is a false religion, so whatever way you want to twist scripture around in order to prop up a false religion is up to you. It would just be an interesting novelty if you could agree on which way to twist.

Gospel Priciples is not prophecy, but it does explain the LDS view of that prophecy. You know this, so what is your point, exactly?
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There is a difference between “cannot” and “will not”

I will defer to Parker, he is more knowledgeable than I am- I am coming into this thread new and shooting my mouth off.

Contrary to my own opinion, I don’t know everything.
 
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