LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[evanfaust]

This is one of several areas of LDS doctrinal errors that I have pointed out to you and Evan over the last two days. How long will you persist in claiming that Joseph Smith was an actual prophet of God when it is so easy to show how he distorted the truth for his own personal gain. Did you really think you were going to come on to Catholic Answers forum and simply spread these doctinal errors without being challenged?

Paul C,

The apparent doctrinal error is in your perception! Let’s see what Tertuillian thinks about marriage…

A hint of the eternal nature of marriage is found in Tertuillian’s discourse on the widow, in which he wrote: "Indeed, she prays for his [her husband’s] soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection." In the same passage, speaking of marriage, he wrote: “*If we believe the resurrection of the dead, of course we shall be bound to them with whom we are destined to rise, to render an account the one of the other…But if ‘in that age they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be equal to angels,’ is not the fact that there will be no restitution of the conjugal relation a reason why we shall not be bound (to them), because we are destined to a better estate - destined (as we are) to rise to a spiritual consortship, to recognize as well our own selves as them who are ours…Consequently, we who shall be with God shall be together, since we shall all be with the one God - albeit the wages be various, albeit there be ‘many mansions,’ in the house of the same Father - having labored for the ‘one penny’ of the selfsame hire, that is, of eternal life; in which (eternal life) God will still less separate those whom He has conjoined, than in this lesser life He forbids them to be separated.” *

Tertuillian, On Monogamy, 10.
Tertuillian, “,” (?) Ante-Nicene Fathers 4:56, 67

The pseudepigraphic Joseph and Aseneth 15:6 has a heavenly messenger telling Aseneth, "Behold, I have given you today to Joseph for a bride, and he himself will be your bridegroom, forever (and) ever." In a later passage, the Egyptian king tells Joseph “Behold, is not this one betrothed to you since eternity? And shall be your wife from now on and forever (and) ever?” (Joseph and Aseneth 21:3). Pharaoh then tells Asenth, "justly the Lord, the God of Joseph, has chosen you as a bride for Joseph, because he is the firstborn of God. And you shall be called a daughter of the Most High and a bride of Joseph from now and forever" (Joseph and Aseneth 21:4).

The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, ed. James H. Charlesworth, (Broadway, New York: Doubleday, 1983), 2:202–47

 

[rinnie]

Great Rinnie! I am glad we are!

Now head over to what I wrote in 1006. You gotta make all of that scripture go away and if you can then you proved your point!

 

[evanfaust]

This is one of several areas of LDS doctrinal errors that I have pointed out to you and Evan over the last two days. How long will you persist in claiming that Joseph Smith was an actual prophet of God when it is so easy to show how he distorted the truth for his own personal gain. Did you really think you were going to come on to Catholic Answers forum and simply spread these doctinal errors without being challenged?

Paul C,

I forgot to add this to my response…

The Jews seem to have believed in eternal marriage from at least second-temple times, since they posed the question about the woman with seven successive husbands, asking which of them would be her husband “in the resurrection” (Matt. 22:28; Mark 12:23; Luke 20:33).

The concept of eternal marriage is well-attested among Jews in the medieval period and is frequently mentioned in the Zohar, which also notes that God has a wife, the Matrona (“mother”), and is known in the Talmud. In the Falasha (the black Jews of Ethiopia’s text) 5 Baruch, it has Jeremiah’s scribe, Baruch, being shown various parts of the heavenly Jerusalem, with different gates for different heirs. The text then says, “I asked the angel who conducted me and said to him: ‘Who enters through this gate?’ He who guided me answered and said to me: ‘Blessed are those who enter through this gate. [Here] the husband remains with his wife and the wife remains with her husband’”

Wolf Leslau, Falasha Antholog (New Haven: Yale, 1951, 1971), 65.

 

[paul_c]

Paul C,

The apparent doctrinal error is in your perception! Let’s see what Tertuillian thinks about marriage…

A hint of the eternal nature of marriage is found in Tertuillian’s discourse on the widow, in which he wrote: "Indeed, she prays for his [her husband’s] soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection." In the same passage, speaking of marriage, he wrote: “*If we believe the resurrection of the dead, of course we shall be bound to them with whom we are destined to rise, to render an account the one of the other…But if ‘in that age they will neither marry nor be given in marriage, but will be equal to angels,’ is not the fact that there will be no restitution of the conjugal relation a reason why we shall not be bound (to them), because we are destined to a better estate - destined (as we are) to rise to a spiritual consortship, to recognize as well our own selves as them who are ours…Consequently, we who shall be with God shall be together, since we shall all be with the one God - albeit the wages be various, albeit there be ‘many mansions,’ in the house of the same Father - having labored for the ‘one penny’ of the selfsame hire, that is, of eternal life; in which (eternal life) God will still less separate those whom He has conjoined, than in this lesser life He forbids them to be separated.” *

Tertuillian, On Monogamy, 10.
Tertuillian, “,” (?) Ante-Nicene Fathers 4:56, 67

The pseudepigraphic Joseph and Aseneth 15:6 has a heavenly messenger telling Aseneth, "Behold, I have given you today to Joseph for a bride, and he himself will be your bridegroom, forever (and) ever." In a later passage, the Egyptian king tells Joseph “Behold, is not this one betrothed to you since eternity? And shall be your wife from now on and forever (and) ever?” (Joseph and Aseneth 21:3). Pharaoh then tells Asenth, "justly the Lord, the God of Joseph, has chosen you as a bride for Joseph, because he is the firstborn of God. And you shall be called a daughter of the Most High and a bride of Joseph from now and forever" (Joseph and Aseneth 21:4).

The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, ed. James H. Charlesworth, (Broadway, New York: Doubleday, 1983), 2:202–47

Are you aware that Tertullian was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 210 because of his heresy?

 

[evanfaust]

Now head over to what I wrote in 1006. You gotta make all of that scripture go away and if you can then you proved your point!

Rinnie,

Ok…I will respond to it later, don’t have time now. Have to go!

 

[paul_c]

Paul C,

I forgot to add this to my response…

The Jews seem to have believed in eternal marriage from at least second-temple times, since they posed the question about the woman with seven successive husbands, asking which of them would be her husband “in the resurrection” (Matt. 22:28; Mark 12:23; Luke 20:33).

The concept of eternal marriage is well-attested among Jews in the medieval period and is frequently mentioned in the Zohar, which also notes that God has a wife, the Matrona (“mother”), and is known in the Talmud. In the Falasha (the black Jews of Ethiopia’s text) 5 Baruch, it has Jeremiah’s scribe, Baruch, being shown various parts of the heavenly Jerusalem, with different gates for different heirs. The text then says, “I asked the angel who conducted me and said to him: ‘Who enters through this gate?’ He who guided me answered and said to me: ‘Blessed are those who enter through this gate. [Here] the husband remains with his wife and the wife remains with her husband’”

Wolf Leslau, Falasha Antholog (New Haven: Yale, 1951, 1971), 65.

Well, in the gospel passages you site, Jesus told the Sadduccees that they they didn’t know scripture and that there was no marriage in heaven. Its as clear as that. This is just another example of a deception by Joseph Smith to justify his adultery.

As for what the Zohar said , who cares? It wasn’t inspired by God.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53
There is more evidence, but I am going to show some from the Jewish religion.

According to Zohar Levíticus 68a-b “When the holy souls come down from heaven to the earth and when the virtuous from the world leave from the presence of the King and the Matrona, few are those that sometimes remain before the King; and, in whom the King care to look. Thus, as we have said, at the time God breathed the spirit in all the celestial hosts, they came into existence, but some were kept until the Holy One, blessed be He, sends them down, and these have dominion above as well as underneath.”

You can also read Zohar Genesis 245b to find more reference to the “Matrona” = heavenly mother.

See also this website:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hebrew_Goddess

Would this be the same “Zohar” you are quoting?

The Zohar first appeared in Spain in the 13th century, and was published by a Jewish writer named Moses de Leon. De Leon ascribed the work to Shimon bar Yochai, a rabbi of the second century CE during the Roman persecution[2] who, according to Jewish legend,[3][4] hid in a cave for thirteen years studying the Torah and was inspired by the Prophet Elijah to write the Zohar. This accords with the traditional claim by adherents that Kabbalah is the concealed part of the Oral Torah.

While the traditional majority view in religious Judaism has been that the teachings of Kabbalah were revealed by God to Biblical figures such as Abraham and Moses and were then transmitted orally from the Biblical era until its redaction by Shimon ben Yochai, modern academic analysis of the Zohar, such as that by the 20th century religious historian Gershom Scholem, has theorized that De Leon was the actual author. The view of non-Orthodox Jewish denominations generally conforms to this latter view, and as such, most non-Orthodox Jews have long viewed the Zohar as pseudepigraphy and apocrypha while sometimes accepting that its contents may have meaning for modern Judaism. Jewish prayerbooks edited by non-Orthodox Jews may therefore contain excerpts from the Zohar and other kabbalistic works,[5] even if the editors are not literal Kabbalists.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohar

and

1. What Is The Zohar?
   The Zohar is a collection of commentaries on the Torah, intended to guide people who have already achieved high spiritual degrees to the root (origin) of their souls.

The Zohar contains all the spiritual states that people experience as their souls evolve. At the end of the process, the souls achieve what Kabbalah refers to as “the end of correction,” the highest level of spiritual wholeness.

To those without spiritual attainment, The Zohar reads like a collection of allegories and legends that can be interpreted and perceived differently by each individual. But to those with spiritual attainment, i.e. Kabbalists, The Zohar is a practical guide to inner actions that one performs in order to discover deeper, higher states of perception and sensation.
kabbalah.info/engkab/mystzohar.htm

And what makes this more credible than the Bible?

 

[Jay53]

Jay53
I am not saying what was specifically hidden…but they are many truths that are not in the Bible and they were not even written. So, for you to reject the new revelations given the modern prophets is to deny that God can still reveal new truths.

See the evidences I am presenting below…this is an excerpt from an article from John Tvedtnes,

Paul wrote of the “hidden wisdom” that was not available to all and that could be gotten only through the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:7-14; cf. Colossians 2:2-3). Peter concurred with this view when, after noting the revelation he received from God in company with James and John on the mount of transfiguration, he adds that “no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but the holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:16-21). Paul also noted that it was “not lawful” for him to reveal some of the things he learned in his heavenly vision (2 Corinthians 12:4), reminding us that the “new name” mentioned in Revelation 2:17 is known only to the individual who receives the stone in which it is written.

 Tertullian, one of the “Church Fathers” who flourished around A.D. 200, wrote, “We believe that the apostles were ignorant of nothing, but that they did not transmit everything they knew, and were not willing to reveal everything to everybody.  They did not preach everywhere nor promiscuously . . . but taught one thing in public and another in secret: some things about the resurrection they taught to everyone, but some things they taught only to a few” (De Praescriptionibus, 25-26).

John Chrysostom, bishop of Constantinople (died A.D. 407) declared, “Paul did not divulge all his revelations, but concealed the greater part of them; and though he did not tell everything, neither was he silent about everything, lest he leave an opening for the teaching of false apostles” (De Laudibus Sancti Pauli Apostoli Homilia 5). Paul himself confirms this idea in his correspondence with the Corinthians: “I . . . could not speak unto you as unto spiritual . . . I have fed you with milk, and not with meat” (1 Corinthians 3:1-2).

 The author of Clementine Homilies 19.20 credits the apostle Peter with saying, “We remember that our Lord and Teacher, commanding us, said, ‘Keep the mysteries for me and the sons of my house.’  Wherefore also He explained to His disciples privately the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.  But to you who do battle with us, and examine into nothing else but our statements, whether they be true or false, it would be impious to state the hidden truths.”16 

 Origen, a Christian scholar of the third century A.D., wrote of the mysteries the Christians kept hidden from the world (Contra Celsum 1.1, 3, 7).  Clement of Alexandria also wrote of the mysteries found in Christianity (Stromata  5.10.63; Clementine Homilies, 19.20).  The fourth-century writer Saint Basil also mentioned the mysterious rites practiced in Christianity (On the Spirit 27, 29).  A number of other early Christian documents speak of secret teachings and practices.  **Such LDS temple rites as baptism for the dead, prayer circles, handclasps, and new names are frequently mentioned in early Christian pseudepigrapha.17**

I’d certainly like to see the evidence of this bolded part, please.

Is it your contention then, that all of the LDS doctrines not found in the early Church are those that “were kept hidden” until Joseph Smith - who then somehow received permission to reveal all of it to everyone?

 

[paul_c]

Evan and Parker,
before this thread closes because it hit the 1000 post limit, I wanted to do a little more than just point out the doctrinal errors of the LDS because at its heart, apologetics is about explaining the truth you believe, not about pointing out errors.

At its core Catholic Christianity is about the love of God and neighbor. This is Christ’s great commandment and it ripples throughout scripture. Those that love are children of God. They see the good in others and help them without expecting anything in return.

The church helps us to love. It teaches us about the love of Christ and there are tremendous examples of love throughout the church. I marvel at how much love is shown in every mass. The mothers and fathers hugging their children. The loving glances between spouses. The elderly husband helping his partially disabled wife get up and down the aisles. The great love of our priests, who give up everything to serve the lord and us. And of course their is the great love of the Saints who have come before us and the charity of the church and its members to society at large. Every Day catholics spend time donating time and energy to help others in great organizations like the St. Vincent DePaul society or the Knights of Columbus and many other Catholic organizations. And we have great religious orders for those that are willing to give their entire lives to God.

More than any of that, though are the sacraments that give us the grace of God. Their is the eucharist, where we partake of Jesus himself and he becomes part of us. And Confession, where we are forgiven our sins and set back on the path to holiness.

And the Catholic Devotions also lead us to Christ and his love. Spend an hour in adoration of the eucharist, truly being in the presence of God, which gives a person a great deal of peace. Say a rosary, recounting the lives of Jesus and Mary or reflect on the stations of the cross, seeing the great love of our savior. Remember the words and lives of the saints, who loved so well that they have been admitted to heaven. For those very advanced in prayer, follow in the steps of the great contemplative saints, like Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross.

These are among the reasons that the Catholic Church has not only survived by thrived for 2000 years. Sure, it has had its share of problems because it is a church of sinners trying to be saved, but Jesus has been true to his promise and driected and supported the church through it all. Evan, if you are truly a confirmed Catholic, all you need to do to recapture this is to go to Confession… The Church and God welcome back all that want to return.

 

[evanfaust]

Would this be the same “Zohar” you are quoting?
and And what makes this more credible than the Bible?

Jay53
I never said the Zohar is more credible than the Bible. But, you have acknowledged that the Bible does not contain all truth. Since the Zohar comes from the Jewish people who brings tradition and knowledge for thousand of years, it makes sense to bring it up in a discussion. It should carry some weight when discussing doctrines. That also proves that Joseph did not invent theses concepts and doctrines out of the air. It puts some validity on the Mormon claims. By the way, Joseph did not have access to most of these ancient books, many of them were not even available in English.

 

[evanfaust]

Is it your contention then, that all of the LDS doctrines not found in the early Church are those that “were kept hidden” until Joseph Smith - who then somehow received permission to reveal all of it to everyone?

Jay53
We claim to have received the visitation of many celestial messengers like John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, Moses, Elijah including God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and many other prophets.

Do you think these messengers knew about these “hidden secrets?”

 

[Xavierlives]

Jay53
I never said the Zohar is more credible than the Bible. But, you have acknowledged that the Bible does not contain all truth. Since the Zohar comes from the Jewish people who brings tradition and knowledge for thousand of years, it makes sense to bring it up in a discussion. It should carry some weight when discussing doctrines. That also proves that Joseph did not invent theses concepts and doctrines out of the air. It puts some validity on the Mormon claims. By the way, Joseph did not have access to most of these ancient books, many of them were not even available in English.

What part of the Bible isn’t a truth?

 

[Xavierlives]

Jay53
We claim to have received the visitation of many celestial messengers like John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, Moses, Elijah including God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and many other prophets.

Do you think these messengers knew about these “hidden secrets?”

And the most disturbing is God and Jesus… at the same time.

 

[TheosisM]

What part of the Bible isn’t a truth?

He didn’t say that. He said that Jay53 acknowledged that the Bible does not contain all truth (which is not the same as saying that “part of the Bible isn’t a truth”).

Perhaps this was a reference to the rejection of sola scriptura.

 

[evanfaust]

Is 9:6-7 Of Christs government there will be NO END

Rinnie,
I am going to comment on the first line. I will comment on the others later. Parker feel free to comment too if you feel like.

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.” Isaiah 9:6-7

We agree that government of Christ has no end, but it did not start when he established his church. The church Jesus established was not his kingdom. He clarifies that in his own statement.

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.” John 18:36

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

 

[TheosisM]

And the most disturbing is God and Jesus… at the same time.

They are distinct Persons, right? Jesus’ baptism, Jesus praying to the Father (and not Himself), even Jesus’ Incarnation (with the Son on earth and the Father in Heaven), etc. The existence of three distinct Persons is standard Trinitarian theology.

 

[evanfaust]

And the most disturbing is God and Jesus… at the same time.

Xavier,

Didn’t Stephen see God and Jesus at the same time? Jesus sitting at the right hand of God? Act 7:55-56

 

[Xavierlives]

He didn’t say that. He said that Jay53 acknowledged that the Bible does not contain all truth (which is not the same as saying that “part of the Bible isn’t a truth”).

Perhaps this was a reference to the rejection of sola scriptura.

But Jay said this

And you still haven’t explained anything about this “heavenly mother” or given any evidence that the Apostles believed in anything resembling that doctrine. Saying that the Apostles knew this and just didn’t divulge it is not even a slightly convincing argument. I agree that they said that not everything was written, but I don’t believe they ever said there were doctrines or Truths that should not be divulged. Some evidence of that would be appreciated.

Thats a far stretch to go from “I don’t believe they ever said there were doctrines or Truths that should not be divulged.” to "Jay53 acknowledged that the Bible does not contain all truth ."

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavier,

Didn’t Stephen see God and Jesus at the same time? Jesus sitting at the right hand of God? Act 7:55-56

Partially. He saw God’s Glory and Jesus.

 

[Xavierlives]

They are distinct Persons, right? Jesus’ baptism, Jesus praying to the Father (and not Himself), even Jesus’ Incarnation (with the Son on earth and the Father in Heaven), etc. The existence of three distinct Persons is standard Trinitarian theology.

But the Book of John tells us God is a Spirit. We also hear from Jesus’ mouth that no man has seen God. So when Joseph Smith said he saw God in flesh and Jesus, either Jesus is a liar or Joseph Smith.