LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

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But Jay said this

Thats a far stretch to go from “I don’t believe they ever said there were doctrines or Truths that should not be divulged.” to "Jay53 acknowledged that the Bible does not contain all truth ."
Of course. However I was going off the post that you quoted, since you misinterpreted what evanfaust said, since he said (or Jay53 said, according to evanfaust) that the Bible does not contain all truth, not that part of the Bible isn’t true.

Again, perhaps evanfaust was referring to the Catholic rejection of sola scriptura. Or perhaps he also misinterpreted Jay53. 🤷
 
But the Book of John tells us God is a Spirit. We also hear from Jesus’ mouth that no man has seen God. So when Joseph Smith said he saw God in flesh and Jesus, either Jesus is a liar or Joseph Smith.
I’m sure that evanfaust will explain the LDS view on this. My post was in reference to you implying that it wouldn’t make sense to have the Father and the Son appearing “at the same time”, when this is not a problem for Trinitarians (who would of course have no problem with Jesus being on earth while the Father is in Heaven, or Jesus’ baptism showing distinct Persons, or Jesus praying to the Father, not Himself, etc.). The corporeality of the Father is another issue (a big one of course).
 
Of course. However I was going off the post that you quoted, since you misinterpreted what evanfaust said, since he said (or Jay53 said, according to evanfaust) that the Bible does not contain all truth, not that part of the Bible isn’t true.

Again, perhaps evanfaust was referring to the Catholic rejection of sola scriptura. Or perhaps he also misinterpreted Jay53. 🤷
Well, at times I have been able to keep up with them and at times I have had to take a break.

They have been having their epic battle around us.
 
Partially. He saw God’s Glory and Jesus.
Xavier,
How can that be logical? The Son is at the “right hand” of God and yet there is only one personage?

You believe that God is spirit, right? But we know Jesus was resurrected with a physical body. He ascended to Heaven with that same body…and he went to heaven and sat at the right hand of the father who “in your belief” is a spirit. If God the father and Jesus are the same person…then how do you explain that one is spirit and the other has a physical body in one person? Did the resurrect Jesus discard his body later? What would be the purpose of that any way?
 
I’m sure that evanfaust will explain the LDS view on this. My post was in reference to you implying that it wouldn’t make sense to have the Father and the Son appearing “at the same time”, when this is not a problem for Trinitarians (who would of course have no problem with Jesus being on earth while the Father is in Heaven, or Jesus’ baptism showing distinct Persons, or Jesus praying to the Father, not Himself, etc.). The corporeality of the Father is another issue (a big one of course).
The problem is, they don’t know how to answer this one so they muddle through. They go into “Joseph Smith was quickened in the spirit.” Only problem is, no one else in the Bible has been graced by this “quickening” enough to see God, except Christ who has already been resurrected.

Every person who has “seen” God has either seen God’s Glory or seen Christ. And of course as Evan said, Stephen saw God’s Glory and Christ.
 
Of course. However I was going off the post that you quoted, since you misinterpreted what evanfaust said, since he said (or Jay53 said, according to evanfaust) that the Bible does not contain all truth, not that part of the Bible isn’t true.

Again, perhaps evanfaust was referring to the Catholic rejection of sola scriptura. Or perhaps he also misinterpreted Jay53. 🤷
I believe Jay53 acknowleged that before! But that is not difficult to admit, since the Bible does not address many issues and there are so many truths that we don’t know.
 
I believe Jay53 acknowleged that before! But that is not difficult to admit, since the Bible does not address many issues and there are so many truths that we don’t know.
There is a big difference between saying the Bible didn’t reveal all of God’s Truths and saying the Bible does not contain all truth.

Maybe it is symatics but “the Bible does not contain all truth” means the Bible contains some falsity.
 
There is a big difference between saying the Bible didn’t reveal all of God’s Truths and saying the Bible does not contain all truth.

Maybe it is symatics but “the Bible does not contain all truth” means the Bible contains some falsity.
This just seems like semantics to me.

-The Bible doesn’t reveal all of God’s truths
-The Bible doesn’t contain all truth

Both are saying the same thing, but I see how you are reading “the Bible does not contain all truth”. That isn’t what is meant here.
 
The problem is, they don’t know how to answer this one so they muddle through. They go into “Joseph Smith was quickened in the spirit.” Only problem is, no one else in the Bible has been graced by this “quickening” enough to see God, except Christ who has already been resurrected.

Every person who has “seen” God has either seen God’s Glory or seen Christ. And of course as Evan said, Stephen saw God’s Glory and Christ.
Xavier,

I add this article about the subject.

The most commonly used Biblical citation invoked by the critics is probably John 1:18, which reads “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Early Christian author Irenaeus wrote in A.D. 180 that this scripture should be read “For “no man,” he says, “hath seen God at any time,” unless “the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him].”[1]

Interestingly, Joseph Smith’s revision of the Bible agrees with Irenaeus’ reading:

No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son . . .(italics represent changes in JST)

Irenaeus’ “unless” (or Joseph’s “except”) makes all the difference. Irenaeus knew that righteous men had seen God in the past:

Acts 7:55-56
Genesis 32:30
Genesis 17:1
Genesis 18:1
Acts 7:2
Exodus 3:6
Exodus 19:11
Exodus 33:11
Num. 12:7-8
1 Kings 9:2
1 Kings 11:9
Isaiah 6:1,5
Exodus 24:10-11
Deut. 34:10
Deut. 5:4
Jud. 13:22
Genesis 3 :
Heb. 11:27
Job 42:5
Job 33:26
Job 19:26
Ezekiel 1:1
Ezekiel 8:1-4
Josh. 5:12-15
Rev. 22:4)

Furthermore, by adopting this approach, Irenaeus’ interpretation of John 1:18 harmonized with the rest of the Bible and the qualifications which the Bible provides for those who may see God. The requirements are:

Must be “of God” “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” (John 6:46.) Some critics will argue that only Jesus “is of God”, but that position is unscriptural. Moses too was “of God”(Deut 33:1), as well as Samuel (1Sam 9:10), Shemaiah (1Kings 12:22), and Elijah (1Kings 17:24).

Must have “peace and holiness” within you “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which, no man shall see the Lord” (Heb. 12:14.)

Must be pure in heart “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God” (Matt. 5:8.)

As the numerous Biblical references demonstrate, the idea of seeing God is hardly foreign to Hebrew or early Christian thought. There are also non-scriptural examples: Philo the Jew taught that the name Israel was compounded of 3 words “ish” “rah” “El”, which means “man seeing God;” this view is also found in the apocryphal Prayer of Joseph. [2] And, an early Christian document called the Clementine Homilies portrays the apostle Peter as agreeing with Irenaeus’ view:

For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal form of the Father or Son, because it is illumined by exceeding great light. . . . For he who sees God cannot live. For the excess of light dissolves the flesh of him who sees; unless by the secret power of God the flesh be changed into the nature of light, so that it can see light.[3]
Joseph Smith revealed the same essential truth (D&C 67:11, D&C 84:22).

It is the critics’ view of John 1:18 that is novel and at odds with the earliest Christian understanding of the scripture, not Joseph Smith’s.

en.fairmormon.org/Nature_of_God/No_man_has_seen_God
 
Xavier,
How can that be logical? The Son is at the “right hand” of God and yet there is only one personage?

You believe that God is spirit, right? But we know Jesus was resurrected with a physical body. He ascended to Heaven with that same body…and he went to heaven and sat at the right hand of the father who “in your belief” is a spirit. If God the father and Jesus are the same person…then how do you explain that one is spirit and the other has a physical body in one person? Did the resurrect Jesus discard his body later? What would be the purpose of that any way?
The very scripture you quoted says it:
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and **saw the glory of God, **and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Jesus is standing at the right hand of God’s Glory.
 
This just seems like semantics to me.

-The Bible doesn’t reveal all of God’s truths
-The Bible doesn’t contain all truth

Both are saying the same thing, but I see how you are reading “the Bible does not contain all truth”. That isn’t what is meant here.
Well as long as you aren’t saying it contains falsities, I’ll let it go.
 
The very scripture you quoted says it:
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and **saw the glory of God, **and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Jesus is standing at the right hand of God’s Glory.
Xavier,

The scripture is saying that God has hands…Jesus Christ is at the right hand side of this being called God! So, there are two personages! Besides, you did not respond the question I asked related to Spirit and physical body. Another queston now… Is Jesus a God? Is the personage next to Jesus another God? Then…we have two Gods…one resurrected and the other one in Spirit form “according to your belief.”

In reality the two personages that Stephen saw agree with the words of Christ:

“It is also written in your law, that the testimony of **two men **is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” John 8:17-18
 
Acts 7:55-56
Genesis 32:30
Genesis 17:1
Genesis 18:1
Acts 7:2
Exodus 3:6
Exodus 19:11
Exodus 33:11
Num. 12:7-8
1 Kings 9:2
1 Kings 11:9
Isaiah 6:1,5
Exodus 24:10-11
Deut. 34:10
Deut. 5:4
Jud. 13:22
Genesis 3 :
Heb. 11:27
Job 42:5
Job 33:26
Job 19:26
Ezekiel 1:1
Ezekiel 8:1-4
Josh. 5:12-15
Rev. 22:4)
Acts 7:55-56 - God’s Glory & Jesus
Genesis 32:30 - Christ
Genesis 17:1 - Christ (also reference in the Book of John)
Genesis 18:1 - Christ
Acts 7:2 - Glory of God
Exodus 3:6 - (Moses didn’t even look)
Exodus 19:11 - Cloud
Exodus 33:11 - Moses saw his back, but not his face
Num. 12:7-8 - No reference of seeing anything
1 Kings 9:2 - Jesus
1 Kings 11:9 - (past reference to Christ)
Isaiah 6:1,5 - (1 says Lord, Christ; 5 says King, again Christ).
Exodus 24:10-11 - This by far is the most difficult, but a similar reference is made in Rev 4:3 and it mentions a throne, so this would appear to be Christ.
Deut. 34:10 - Referencing Christ
Deut. 5:4 - a Bush
Jud. 13:22 - Angel
Genesis 3 : They heard God. They never reference seeing Him.
Heb. 11:27 - Again, this references Moses seeing Christ.
Job 42:5 - In the whirlwind?
Job 33:26 - Future tense
Job 19:26 - Future tense
Ezekiel 1:1 - **I would need to look at the root but the visions of God are probably translated better Godly visions or visions from God. **
Ezekiel 8:1-4 - Glory of God
Josh. 5:12-15 - Unclear. This appears to be an angel.
Rev. 22:4 - Future tense "shall see"

Fun Exercise.

More over, Even if you don’t want to believe that Christ is God in flesh, then I fail to see any of these where Christ and God appear together.
 
What does it mean to see the “glory of God” (non-LDS)? This is something I never really thought about. What were they seeing when they saw the “glory of God”, and Jesus at the right hand of it (knowing that Trinitarians interpret “right hand” as a place of honor, not a physical location, since the Father is incorporeal)?
 
Xavier,

The scripture is saying that God has hands…Jesus Christ is at the right hand side of this being called God! So, there are two personages! Besides, you did not respond the question I asked related to Spirit and physical body. Another queston now… Is Jesus a God? Is the personage next to Jesus another God? Then…we have two Gods…one resurrected and the other one in Spirit form “according to your belief.”

In reality the two personages that Stephen saw agree with the words of Christ:

“It is also written in your law, that the testimony of **two men **is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.” John 8:17-18
Can someone be standing to the right hand side of God? Lets say I see nothing but your silhouette. Someone to your right could really be to your left if their back is to you. This description is identifying Christ’s location to God’s Glory.

As to the spiritual and physical body. but Jesus says, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

As for the Trinity, I do no expect you to understand because you believe there are many gods. When I say that they are one in the same, you are lost because it is a mystery to you.

As for your two witnesses scripture. I’m not sure what you are referencing. Christ is saying, I have 3 witnesses. I have John the Baptist, my human witness, but forget about him, he is just there to fulfill the human aspect of the law. Now for the spiritual part, I have God as my witness and the Bible as my witness. (Which personally, I might add, Joseph Smith is lacking these last two witnesses.)
 
Can someone be standing to the right hand side of God? Lets say I see nothing but your silhouette. Someone to your right could really be to your left if their back is to you. This description is identifying Christ’s location to God’s Glory.
Remember that Mormons believe in a corporeal Father, so for them, there is no problem with Jesus physically being at the right of the Father.
As for the Trinity, I do no expect you to understand because you believe there are many gods. When I say that they are one in the same, you are lost because it is a mystery to you.
They are “one in the same” what? Sorry, the Trinity is a topic I’ve researched extensively, so I’m a little nit-picky when it comes to terminology and phraseology and the Trinity, especially when explaining it to a non-Trinitarian. Why not try to explain to evanfaust? Just because someone doesn’t believe something doesn’t mean they can’t understand what someone else believes. They can understand and disagree. Isn’t that part of why we’re here?
 
What does it mean to see the “glory of God” (non-LDS)? This is something I never really thought about. What were they seeing when they saw the “glory of God”, and Jesus at the right hand of it (knowing that Trinitarians interpret “right hand” as a place of honor, not a physical location, since the Father is incorporeal)?
Well, somewhere behind all of that Glory is God. Can you look at the sun and see the center? No. Too much to look at. Now apply that to God. So take the sun and multiple it by a billion. Personally, I am surprised he saw Christ through all of that Glory. 😃
 
Rinnie,
I am going to comment on the first line. I will comment on the others later. Parker feel free to comment too if you feel like.

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.” Isaiah 9:6-7

We agree that government of Christ has no end, but it did not start when he established his church. The church Jesus established was not his kingdom. He clarifies that in his own statement.

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.” John 18:36

“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)
Evan Faust,
I have really appreciated your comments and insights, as also those of TheosisM. Thanks to each of you. I have decided that I should focus on family history research more thoroughly and, though I’ve enjoyed many of the conversations and have learned a lot by re-looking at Biblical passages with a fresh perspective (especially the marriage passages that are so clear when diagrammed as to the understood subject), I will look forward (from a distance) to having new insights be provided by those such as yourselves. You each have deep wisdom and thoughtful explanations.

Thanks to all, and much peace and happiness.
 
Evan Faust,
I have really appreciated your comments and insights, as also those of TheosisM. Thanks to each of you. I have decided that I should focus on family history research more thoroughly and, though I’ve enjoyed many of the conversations and have learned a lot by re-looking at Biblical passages with a fresh perspective (especially the marriage passages that are so clear when diagrammed as to the understood subject), I will look forward (from a distance) to having new insights be provided by those such as yourselves. You each have deep wisdom and thoughtful explanations.

Thanks to all, and much peace and happiness.
(yeah… I guess I should get back to my task at hand too. Boo.)
 
Well, somewhere behind all of that Glory is God. Can you look at the sun and see the center? No. Too much to look at. Now apply that to God. So take the sun and multiple it by a billion. Personally, I am surprised he saw Christ through all of that Glory. 😃
Ahh, okay I see, thanks!

Edit: And to be precise, in Trinitarianism, you can’t “see” the Father, since He is incorporeal. So, it’s interesting to think that, from a Trinitarian perspective, that one can see the glory of God, but never the Father directly since He doesn’t have any form or occupy time and space, since He’s incorporeal. So, I wonder if there really would be something/someone to see behind the glory, since because the Father is incorporeal in Trinitarianism, there wouldn’t be anything/anyone to see. If there would be something to see, what would it/He look like? Random thought.
 
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