LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[evanfaust]

This is a note about GOD IS A SPIRIT.

Note that in the KJV cited above, the word “is” is italicized. This is because the King James translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made.

Secondly, the reader should be aware that the indefinite article (“a”, as in “a dog” or “a spirit”) does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word “a” in English occurs at the discretion of the translators.[1]

This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma θεος πνεμα]—“God spirit”. The JST resolves this translational issue by saying “for unto such hath God promised his spirit”. The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means ‘life’ or ‘breath’. The King James Version of Rev. 13:15 renders ‘pneuma’ as life. Thus “God is life,” or “God is the breath of life” are potential alternative translations of this verse.

Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?

Thus, the Latter-day Saints believe that man is also spirit (D&C 93:33-34; Num. 16:22; Rom. 8:16) and is, like God, housed in a physical body. We were, after all, created in the “image” of God (Genesis 1:26-27).

It is interesting that in 1 Cor. 2:11, Paul wrote about "the spirit of man and the Spirit of God." Elsewhere he spoke of the resurrection of the body and then noted that it is a “spiritual” body (1 Cor. 15:44-46), though, rising from the grave, it is obviously composed of flesh and bones, as Jesus made clear when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection ({s||Luke|24|37-39}}).

Paul also told the saints in Rome, ***“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you” ***(Rom. 8:9).

One Commentary insists:

That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God’s being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1 John 1:5, “**God is light,” **or Deut. 4:24, “**Your God is a devouring fire.” **It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship.[2]

 

[paul_c]

This is a note about GOD IS A SPIRIT.

Note that in the KJV cited above, the word “is” is italicized. This is because the King James translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made.

Secondly, the reader should be aware that the indefinite article (“a”, as in “a dog” or “a spirit”) does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word “a” in English occurs at the discretion of the translators.[1]

This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma θεος πνεμα]—“God spirit”. The JST resolves this translational issue by saying “for unto such hath God promised his spirit”. The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means ‘life’ or ‘breath’. The King James Version of Rev. 13:15 renders ‘pneuma’ as life. Thus “God is life,” or “God is the breath of life” are potential alternative translations of this verse.

Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?

Thus, the Latter-day Saints believe that man is also spirit (D&C 93:33-34; Num. 16:22; Rom. 8:16) and is, like God, housed in a physical body. We were, after all, created in the “image” of God (Genesis 1:26-27).

It is interesting that in 1 Cor. 2:11, Paul wrote about "the spirit of man and the Spirit of God." Elsewhere he spoke of the resurrection of the body and then noted that it is a “spiritual” body (1 Cor. 15:44-46), though, rising from the grave, it is obviously composed of flesh and bones, as Jesus made clear when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection ({s||Luke|24|37-39}}).

Paul also told the saints in Rome, ***“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you” ***(Rom. 8:9).

One Commentary insists:

That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God’s being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1 John 1:5, “**God is light,” **or Deut. 4:24, “**Your God is a devouring fire.” **It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship.[2]

Evan, don’t you understand how desparate you are to defend Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith? You are now down to grammatical gymnastics trying to prove a point that is not there. God is spirit. And none of those church fathers you listed thought men would become gods. There is only one God, in three persons. They all subscribed to the Apostles creed: We believe in one God, the father all mighty, creator of heaven and earth…

 

[evanfaust]

Evan, don’t you understand how desparate you are to defend Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith? You are now down to grammatical gymnastics trying to prove a point that is not there. God is spirit. And none of those church fathers you listed thought men would become gods. There is only one God, in three persons. They all subscribed to the Apostles creed: We believe in one God, the father all mighty, creator of heaven and earth…

Paul,

There is no desperation! I am very confident in my beliefs and I will try to persuade others to come to share the happiness of truly communing with God.

I will locate the evidence of the fathers in support of us becoming Gods.

When the Bible tells us that . . .

• We were created in the image of God
• God is the father of our spirits
• We are the offspring of God
• Christ calls us gods
• Man has become as God
• We will inherit all things
• We will be co-heirs with Christ of all things
• We will have glory
• We will have thrones
• We will be filled with the fullness of God
• We will be partakers of the divine nature of God
• We will be one with God
• We shall be like Him
• Our bodies will be fashioned like His glorious body
• We can gain perfection

then yes, I believe we have the potential to become a god ourselves. It is tradition that teaches these things are not true. It is the councils of men that teach these things are not true; it is the Christian Creeds that teach these things are not true. It is the Holy Bible that teaches these things are true. I choose to believe what the Bible teaches.

fairlds.org/Bible/Do_We_Have_the_Potential_to_become_Like_God.html

 

[evanfaust]

Evan, don’t you understand how desparate you are to defend Joseph Smith and the Mormon faith? You are now down to grammatical gymnastics trying to prove a point that is not there. God is spirit. And none of those church fathers you listed thought men would become gods. There is only one God, in three persons. They all subscribed to the Apostles creed: We believe in one God, the father all mighty, creator of heaven and earth…

Paul,

I located the evidence about the fathers supporting the LDS claim.

Critics insist that the doctrine of theosis is unBiblical and unChristian. Unfortunately for the critics, a review of Christian history illustrates that this doctrine was and is a common belief of many Christians; modern critics are perhaps the exception, rather than the rule.

Irenaeus (ca. AD 115-202)
Saint Irenaeus, who may justly be called the first Biblical theologian among the ancient Christians, was a disciple of the great Polycarp, who was a direct disciple of John the Revelator.[4] Irenaeus is not a heretic or unorthodox in traditional Christian circles, yet he shares a belief in theosis:

While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord. [5]
Like the LDS, Irenaeus did not believe that this belief in any way displaced God, Christ, or the Holy Ghost:

there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption…Since, therefore, this is sure and stedfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption.[6]
Yet, Irenaeus—whom it is absurd to exclude from the ranks of orthodox Christians—believed in theosis in terms which agree with LDS thinking on the matter:

We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods.[7]
Also:

How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How can any be perfect when he has only lately been made man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one’s duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God.[8]
And:

Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.” [9]
And:

But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, “I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High.” To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the “adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father.”” [10]

And, Irenaeus considers the doctrine clearly Biblical, just as the LDS do:

For he who holds, without pride and boasting, the true glory (opinion) regarding created things and the Creator, who is the Almighty God of all, and who has granted existence to all; [such an one, ] continuing in His love and subjection, and giving of thanks, shall also receive from Him the greater glory of promotion, looking forward to the time when he shall become like Him who died for him, for He, too, “was made in the likeness of sinful flesh,” to condemn sin, and to cast it, as now a condemned thing, away beyond the flesh, but that He might call man forth into His own likeness, assigning him as [His own] imitator to God, and imposing on him His Father’s law, in order that he may see God, and granting him power to receive the Father; [being] the Word of God who dwelt in man, and became the Son of man, that He might accustom man to receive God, and God to dwell in man, according to the good pleasure of the Father.[11]

 

[evanfaust]

…cont

Further quotes from Irenaeus available here.

Said one Protestant theologian of Irenaeus:

Participation in God was carried so far by Irenaeus as to amount to deification. ‘We were not made gods in the beginning,’ he says, ‘but at first men, then at length gods.’ This is not to be understood as mere rhetorical exaggeration on Irenaeus’ part. He meant the statement to be taken literally.[12]

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215)
Clement, an early Christian leader in Alexandria, also taught the doctrine of deification:

yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.[13]
And:

…if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God…His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.”[14]
Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of “gods” since they are destined to be enthroned with the other “gods” who are ranked next below the savior.[15]

Origen (ca. AD 185-251)
And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is “The God,” and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype. [16]

The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God. [17]

Origen also defined what it means to “participate” in something:

Every one who participates in anything, is unquestionably of one essence and nature with him who is partaker of the same thing. [18]
Justin Martyr (d. ca. AD 163)

Justin the Martyr said in 150 A.D. that he wishes

to prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons… in the beginning men were made like God, free from suffering and death, and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest…[19]

Also,

[By Psalm 82] it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and even of having power to become sons of the Highest.[20]

Hippolytus (AD 170-236)

Now in all these acts He offered up, as the first-fruits, His own manhood, in order that thou, when thou art in tribulation, mayest not be disheartened, but, confessing thyself to be a man (of like nature with the Redeemer,) mayest dwell in expectation of also receiving what the Father has granted unto this Son…The Deity (by condescension) does not diminish anything of the dignity of His divine perfection having made you even God unto his glory. [21]

Athanasius
In 347, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria and participant in the council of Nicea, said:

the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods…just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through His flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life…[we are] sons and gods by reason of the word in us.[22]

For as Christ died and was exalted as man, so, as man, is He said to take what, as God, He ever had, that even such a grant of grace might reach to us. For the Word was not impaired in receiving a body, that He should seek to receive a grace, but rather He deified that which He put on, and more than that, gave it graciously to the race of man. [23]
He also states that Christ “became man that we might be made divine.” [24]

Augustine (AD 354-430)
Augustine, considered one of the greatest Christian Fathers, said

but He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.[25]

Jerome (AD 340-420)
Jerome also described the deification of believers as an act of grace, which matches the LDS understanding precisely:

“I said 'you are gods, all of you sons of the most high.’" let Eunomius hear this, let Arius, who say that the son of God is son in the same way we are. That we are gods is not so by nature, but by grace. “but to as many as receive Him he gave power to becoming sons of God” I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. We are called gods and sons!..[Christ said] “all of you sons of the Most High,” it is not possible to be the son of the Most High, unless He Himself is the Most High. I said that all of you would be exalted as I am exalted.[26]

Jerome goes on to say that we should give thanks to the God of gods. The prophet is referring to those gods of whom it is written: I said ‘you are gods’ and again ‘god arises in the divine assembly’ they who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice an are become perfect, are gods and the sons of the most high…[27]

en.fairmormon.org/Nature_of_God/Deifica

 

[paul_c]

Evan,
these are extreme stretches of what was said. The Early church fathers and the scriptures are talking about people in heaven being immortal. All Christians believe this. This is not what Mormon’s are discussing when they say you will become gods, now is it? You describe God the father as being a man in a previous life, don’t you?

 

[evanfaust]

I don’t believe any of these claims, particularly if these “secrets” contradict previous scripture.
The same way I don’t believe Muhammad was visited by the Angel Gabriel with a “revelation from God” because he contradicts previous scripture. I’m sure you also have no trouble dismissing Muhammad as a false prophet, yet he made similar claims of prophethood and visitations etc. and never denied them to his death.

Jay53,
I do not dimiss Muhammad being visited by celestial messengers, but he did not receive the fulness. The LDS Church believes that all religions receive some portion of God’s light, in a higher or lesser degree. The Reformers received some light from God to break away form the “insanity” that was happenning around the Catholic Church. Budah, Confucious and other received also portion of God’s light. However, the LDS Church received full authority to act in God’s name and true knowledge in much higher proportion to prepare the people for the second comming of Christ.

When Peter received a revelation to preach to the gentiles, he was going against previous scripture and agains previous revelation!

 

[sablouwho]

I am very confident in my beliefs …

I find it an interesting phenomenon in life that there are people of various faiths who are very confident in their religious beliefs. However, I am not sure that this confidence means that any one of them is right.

and I will try to persuade others to come to share the happiness of truly communing with God.

I am curious as to why you feel a need to do this, (aside from the obvious answer that it is part of LDS culture for every member to be a missionary)? The governing assumption here seems to be that non-LDS are ALL somehow “deficient” in their happiness/relationship with God. Yet I’ve met people of other faiths that don’t feel like this at all.

I know that Mormons say that they want to add to the faith that others already have, but honestly, in some ways, it seem that this could be looked at as destroying the faith that a person already has, in order to get them to change.

And what of those who convert to LDS due to missionary “pressure”, the nice people in the ward, the good values, etc, and because they “think” they have a testimony, only to find out later that the LDS church just isn’t a good fit for them/doesn’t make them happy or able to commune “better” with God than they did in their old faith? Does that really leave such a person in a better situation? I would imagine some ex-LDS who converted as adults are very disillusioned. Perhaps some find it hard to go back to their old faith. So they might be left with nothing. Somehow that just doesn’t seem right to me.

I ask this question because this could have happened to me. I thankfully was able to realize how unhappy I was in the LDS context before it went that far. No matter how hard I tried to make it fit, no matter how strong my desire was to join the church, no matter how strong my prayers were, it seemed like I was shoving a square peg in a round hole.

I choose to believe what the Bible teaches.

Many people say that they choose to believe what the bible teaches, yet they have a variety of beliefs. That’s one reason why we have Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, etc, all believing differently.

 

[paul_c]

Jay53,
I do not dimiss Muhammad being visited by celestial messengers, but he did not receive the fulness. The LDS Church believes that all religions receive some portion of God’s light, in a higher or lesser degree. The Reformers received some light from God to break away form the “insanity” that was happenning around the Catholic Church. Budah, Confucious and other received also portion of God’s light. However, the LDS Church received full authority to act in God’s name and true knowledge in much higher proportion to prepare the people for the second comming of Christ.

When Peter received a revelation to preach to the gentiles, he was going against previous scripture and agains previous revelation!

How do you know that the LDS church received full authority to act in God’s name and true knowledge to prepare the people for the second coming of Christ? Because Joseph Smith claimed that? Thats completely laughable. What did he ever do to prove he was the prophet of God? He did plenty to prove he was not, as we have discussed. His original wife, Emma Hale Smith, who helped transcribe the Golden plates didn’t even believe him. When he was shot, she broke off from the church forever, and married a non-mormon. If she didn’t believe him, why should anyone else?

And back to the original question, How do you know that the Catholic church apostacized? and what is this insanity that you speak of ? On one hand you quote early Church fathers to try to support the mormon case, and then you say that they apostacized. Which one is it? Don’t you see the contradictions in those cases.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavier,

You are the one who used the word HIM when referring to the father not me! Now, you still have not explained to me what God is.

Umm… I am only quoting the scripture. The Bible refers to God as Father. I am only referring to the Bible when I say “Him” and “He.” If you don’t believe God is the Father then you better take it up with the Bible.

First you tell me that God is ONLY SPIRIT due to a mis-insterpretation of a scripure,

Spiritus est Deus : et eos qui adorant eum, in spiritu et veritate oportet adorare.

Now, with one year of 4rd grade Latin, my son can read the key words here God is a Spirit. So how exactly has it been misinterpreted?

but at the same time you understand that the Son and the Father are the same person and yet one has SPIRIT ONLY and the other one is RESURRECTED with a physical body. Well, which one is it? That to me just shows the evidence of two beings based on your logic!

Well it is hard for a polytheist to understand the Trinity. I’m sure you’ve heard all of the standard attempts to explain it. How can water be liquid, solid, and gas and still be water, etc. I do like it though, because things of the spirit are described as liquid water, Christ is a solid, and the Holy Ghost is, well… I shouldn’t say gassy.

You also are the one that said that in a spiritual state (out of the body) a person may see God, and yet deny that men have seen God and cannot possibly see God. Well, which is it? We know that Stephen STILL IN THE FLESH was able to see God the Father and his Son!!!

Again, go back and read the scripture. Stephen says he saw God’s Glory, not God. And I said when you are dead and separated from your flesh, of course there are a lot of other things that will be going on too, so it will all happen in God’s timing.

And you still deny that they are two separate beings! If you understand that Stephen was able to see God because he was out of the body, then you should agree that men can see God when their spirit temporarily leaves the body and that does not mean a person has to die or be dead!

You’re only reference for this out of body experience is 2 Cor where Paul distinctly says I don’t know what happened. So a man says he doesn’t know and you fill in his knowledge for him?

In addition, we see many Biblical scriptures confirming that men have seen God and the face of God and yet you deny the Bible!

I admit they saw Christ. So, if you mean they saw Christ, then I deny not.

Another point…do we need to be stoned to have an out of body experience? If you do a little research you will see that this is not necessary. Would that be an impossible task for God? You seem to be making God very weak!

and you make Jesus a liar. But again, I am not making God weak. I am recognizing God is consistent in his truths. You want to fabricate things so your false prophet has some credibility and the only way you can do it is by redefining things in the Bible.

Final point…Christ is not a liar! But there are many other explanations other than that. First one, a dozen of other scriptures attest to the fact the men have seen God, and yet there IS ONE scripture that seem to contradict the others. Would not be easier to adjust the ONLY ONE that seem to be out of the Bible context, instead the other way around like you do? Is it not possible that this verse may have been copied in error? Remember, we don’t have any originals. Is it possible that it was translated in error? Is it a problem with interpretation?

And not to beat a dead horse, but you are the one who is trying to make Christ a liar. If Christ says God is a Spirit, then I have a little clue for you: He is a Spirit. If Christ says, no one has see the Father but Christ, then guess what, Christ hold the honor. When Joseph Smith comes along and says he saw God in Human form… ruh-roh, shaggy! Joe should have read some more Bible before he started concocting his story.

Early Christian author Irenaeus wrote in A.D. 180 that this scripture should be read “*For “no man,” *he says, "hath seen God at any time," unless "the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him].

What exactly is your point? Satan is called a god in the Bible.

Note: Among the Christian Fathers of the second through fourth centuries A.D. who cited biblical evidence that humans are destined to become Gods are Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian of Carthage, Clement of Alexandria, Novation, Maximus the Confessor, Athanasius of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, John Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine of Hippo, and the Persian Aphrahat of Syria.

You need to dive into the Bible more. Christ refers to people as gods in the Book of John (10:34) and he is referencing Ps. 82:6! If you want to go for the whole "you will be gods, at least use the Bible and skip the “Christian Fathers.”

 

[Xavierlives]

This is a note about GOD IS A SPIRIT.

Note that in the KJV cited above, the word “is” is italicized. This is because the King James translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made.

Secondly, the reader should be aware that the indefinite article (“a”, as in “a dog” or “a spirit”) does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word “a” in English occurs at the discretion of the translators.[1]

This leaves two Greek words: theos pneuma θεος πνεμα]—“God spirit”. The JST resolves this translational issue by saying “for unto such hath God promised his spirit”. The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means ‘life’ or ‘breath’. The King James Version of Rev. 13:15 renders ‘pneuma’ as life. Thus “God is life,” or “God is the breath of life” are potential alternative translations of this verse.

Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?

Thus, the Latter-day Saints believe that man is also spirit (D&C 93:33-34; Num. 16:22; Rom. 8:16) and is, like God, housed in a physical body. We were, after all, created in the “image” of God (Genesis 1:26-27).

It is interesting that in 1 Cor. 2:11, Paul wrote about "the spirit of man and the Spirit of God." Elsewhere he spoke of the resurrection of the body and then noted that it is a “spiritual” body (1 Cor. 15:44-46), though, rising from the grave, it is obviously composed of flesh and bones, as Jesus made clear when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection ({s||Luke|24|37-39}}).

Paul also told the saints in Rome, ***“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you” ***(Rom. 8:9).

One Commentary insists:

That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God’s being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1 John 1:5, “**God is light,” **or Deut. 4:24, “**Your God is a devouring fire.” **It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship.[2]

And yet Christ is the one who relayed the information Spiritus est Deus. So Joseph Smith can try to translate what Jesus said, but… err… its still right there for anyone to read. Joseph Smith tried to make Christ a liar. If you aren’t for Christ you are against him.

 

[Xavierlives]

Paul,

There is no desperation! I am very confident in my beliefs and I will try to persuade others to come to share the happiness of truly communing with God.

I will locate the evidence of the fathers in support of us becoming Gods.

Wow… break out the big G and everything. I’ll pray for mercy on your soul.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Paul,

Critics insist that the doctrine of theosis is unBiblical and unChristian. Unfortunately for the critics, a review of Christian history illustrates that this doctrine was and is a common belief of many Christians; modern critics are perhaps the exception, rather than the rule.

Theosis is not exaltation, read Vajda don’t worry it’s from the Neal A. Maxwell Institute but it does explain the differences which you obviously don’t understand.

 

[Javl]

Originally Posted by** evanfaust**
Paul,

There is no desperation! I am very confident in my beliefs and I will try to persuade others to come to share the happiness of truly communing with God.

I will locate the evidence of the fathers in support of us becoming Gods.

What I cannot, and probably never will, understand is how someone as intelligent as you are can follow and believe in the antithesis of the true nature and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented by Joseph Smith and Mormanism. The falsisty of both Joseph Smith and Mormonism is so blaringly evident, yet you refuse to recognize and accept it. I also will pray for your soul.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Answersplease]

And why is nobody praying for my soul?

 

[JMJ4]

…cont

Further quotes from Irenaeus available here.

Said one Protestant theologian of Irenaeus:

Participation in God was carried so far by Irenaeus as to amount to deification. ‘We were not made gods in the beginning,’ he says, ‘but at first men, then at length gods.’ This is not to be understood as mere rhetorical exaggeration on Irenaeus’ part. He meant the statement to be taken literally.[12]

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215)
Clement, an early Christian leader in Alexandria, also taught the doctrine of deification:

yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.[13]
And:

…if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God…His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, “Men are gods, and gods are men.”[14]
Those who have been perfected are given their reward and their honors. They have done with their purification, they have done with the rest of their service, though it be a holy service, with the holy; now they become pure in heart, and because of their close intimacy with the Lord there awaits them a restoration to eternal contemplation; and they have received the title of “gods” since they are destined to be enthroned with the other “gods” who are ranked next below the savior.[15]

Origen (ca. AD 185-251)
And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him, of whom God is the God, as it is written, “The God of gods, the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became gods, for He drew from God in generous measure that they should be made gods, and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true God, then, is “The God,” and those who are formed after Him are gods, images, as it were, of Him the prototype. [16]

The Father, then, is proclaimed as the one true God; but besides the true God are many who become gods by participating in God. [17]

Origen also defined what it means to “participate” in something:

Every one who participates in anything, is unquestionably of one essence and nature with him who is partaker of the same thing. [18]
Justin Martyr (d. ca. AD 163)

Justin the Martyr said in 150 A.D. that he wishes

to prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons… in the beginning men were made like God, free from suffering and death, and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest…[19]

Also,

[By Psalm 82] it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and even of having power to become sons of the Highest.[20]

Hippolytus (AD 170-236)

Now in all these acts He offered up, as the first-fruits, His own manhood, in order that thou, when thou art in tribulation, mayest not be disheartened, but, confessing thyself to be a man (of like nature with the Redeemer,) mayest dwell in expectation of also receiving what the Father has granted unto this Son…The Deity (by condescension) does not diminish anything of the dignity of His divine perfection having made you even God unto his glory. [21]

Athanasius
In 347, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria and participant in the council of Nicea, said:

the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods…just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through His flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life…[we are] sons and gods by reason of the word in us.[22]

For as Christ died and was exalted as man, so, as man, is He said to take what, as God, He ever had, that even such a grant of grace might reach to us. For the Word was not impaired in receiving a body, that He should seek to receive a grace, but rather He deified that which He put on, and more than that, gave it graciously to the race of man. [23]
He also states that Christ “became man that we might be made divine.” [24]

Augustine (AD 354-430)
Augustine, considered one of the greatest Christian Fathers, said

but He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.[25]

Jerome (AD 340-420)
Jerome also described the deification of believers as an act of grace, which matches the LDS understanding precisely:

“I said 'you are gods, all of you sons of the most high.’" let Eunomius hear this, let Arius, who say that the son of God is son in the same way we are. That we are gods is not so by nature, but by grace. “but to as many as receive Him he gave power to becoming sons of God” I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. We are called gods and sons!..[Christ said] “all of you sons of the Most High,” it is not possible to be the son of the Most High, unless He Himself is the Most High. I said that all of you would be exalted as I am exalted.[26]

Jerome goes on to say that we should give thanks to the God of gods. The prophet is referring to those gods of whom it is written: I said ‘you are gods’ and again ‘god arises in the divine assembly’ they who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice an are become perfect, are gods and the sons of the most high…[27]

en.fairmormon.org/Nature_of_God/Deifica

Evanfaust:
This timeline of Catholic Church fathers proves that there was no “Great Apostasy”.
If these men were apostates, why would you quote them?

 

[paul_c]

Since this thread is past the 1000 post limit and is subject to being closed at any minute, I invite all to move this discussion to this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6285767#post6285767

It is obvious that the Mormons on this site are here to try to convert Catholics. I want to get right down to it. What do Catholics lack that the Mormon church offers. Should be an interesting discussion on both ends because we will tell you also what you lack that the Catholic chruch offers. let the debate begin.

 

[sablouwho]

Evanfaust:
This timeline of Catholic Church fathers proves that there was no “Great Apostasy”.
If these men were apostates, why would you quote them?

It is a good point–I was just wondering the same thing myself.

BTW, I distinctly remember reading this very quote when I was investigating the LDS.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Evanfaust:
This timeline of Catholic Church fathers proves that there was no “Great Apostasy”.
If these men were apostates, why would you quote them?

And why would LDS use the New Testament, that comes from the Catholic Church?

“a cause can never be less than its effect. You can’t give what you don’t have. If the Church has no divine inspiration and no infallibility, no divine authority, then neither can the New Testament” Dr. Peter Kreeft

 

[Tmaque]

evenfaust,

None of the sayings you quoted by the early Church fathers mentions becoming a God with our own planet. All their comments have to do with us becoming gods with God, sharing in his divinity. Mormonism teaches that man can become a God apart from God, not sharing in the source of power, but having our own power. This is NOT what the early church fathers were talking about. Please explain what LDS mean when they speak of men becoming Gods.