LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[ParkerD]

evenfaust,

None of the sayings you quoted by the early Church fathers mentions becoming a God with our own planet. All their comments have to do with us becoming gods with God, sharing in his divinity. Mormonism teaches that man can become a God apart from God, not sharing in the source of power, but having our own power. This is NOT what the early church fathers were talking about. Please explain what LDS mean when they speak of men becoming Gods.

Tmaque,
I happened on here briefly and noticed this question. “Sharing in His divinity” is indeed what the LDS belief is, and certainly not “that man can become a god apart from God, not sharing in the source of power…” The source of power is always and will always be God the Father. It is never about “having one’s own power”–never–impossible, completely impossible.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Where does your “God the Father” get his power?

 

[Xavierlives]

Tmaque,
I happened on here briefly and noticed this question. “Sharing in His divinity” is indeed what the LDS belief is, and certainly not “that man can become a god apart from God, not sharing in the source of power…” The source of power is always and will always be God the Father. It is never about “having one’s own power”–never–impossible, completely impossible.

Isn’t this only because you believe God is also advancing or something and that he is basically just one step ahead of you?

 

[Vasian]

Jay53,
However, the LDS Church received full authority to act in God’s name and true knowledge in much higher proportion to prepare the people for the second comming of Christ.

Simply amazing, the parallels between the LDS and the Watchtower

 

[ParkerD]

Isn’t this only because you believe God is also advancing or something and that he is basically just one step ahead of you?

No–God is omniscient, omnipotent, and infinitely full of love. God desires His children to advance in their knowledge and goodness and faith, because He knows what will bring them the most happiness and joy. He rejoices when men choose goodness and light. If one wants to call that joy “advancing” in the sense that God is not stagnant–that He joys in our joys as we progress, then one can do that.

God is billions of “steps” ahead of humankind, of course, (though I don’t view it that way at all–He never started from where we started) and will always be billions of steps ahead of humankind, leading with love, but also with belief in our ability far beyond what we give ourselves credit for. That is why Christ was so willing to offer Himself as a sacrifice for us–we, the weak and imperfect–because He knew that through Him we had a far greater potential than we understood was possible (and humankind are still discounting the possibility He so wants us to understand we have.)

 

[RebeccaJ]

How does a being that is omniscient and omnipotent, progress?

 

[Xavierlives]

No–God is omniscient, omnipotent, and infinitely full of love. God desires His children to advance in their knowledge and goodness and faith, because He knows what will bring them the most happiness and joy. He rejoices when men choose goodness and light. If one wants to call that joy “advancing” in the sense that God is not stagnant–that He joys in our joys as we progress, then one can do that.

God is billions of “steps” ahead of humankind, of course, (though I don’t view it that way at all–He never started from where we started) and will always be billions of steps ahead of humankind, leading with love, but also with belief in our ability far beyond what we give ourselves credit for. That is why Christ was so willing to offer Himself as a sacrifice for us–we, the weak and imperfect–because He knew that through Him we had a far greater potential than we understood was possible (and humankind are still discounting the possibility He so wants us to understand we have.)

But are we told that Christ revealed many ancient mysteries, but still mysteries remain. So why would we expect, in our current capacity to understand God’s overall gameplan? Many expect that more will be revealed when we die, but it seems that one of the goals of Mormonism is to try to answer them all. (ie, what did Paul mean when he said 3rd Heaven? Bam, Mormons capitalize on this somewhat vague reference and explain all of heaven.)

(oh, well… back to the books. TTYL).

 

[zach_dunn]

No–God is omniscient, omnipotent, and infinitely full of love. God desires His children to advance in their knowledge and goodness and faith, because He knows what will bring them the most happiness and joy. He rejoices when men choose goodness and light. If one wants to call that joy “advancing” in the sense that God is not stagnant–that He joys in our joys as we progress, then one can do that.

God is billions of “steps” ahead of humankind, of course, (though I don’t view it that way at all–He never started from where we started) and will always be billions of steps ahead of humankind, leading with love, but also with belief in our ability far beyond what we give ourselves credit for. That is why Christ was so willing to offer Himself as a sacrifice for us–we, the weak and imperfect–because He knew that through Him we had a far greater potential than we understood was possible (and humankind are still discounting the possibility He so wants us to understand we have.)

Wait, so Mormons don’t believe the Father started out as a man? Isn’t this what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse?

 

[ParkerD]

Wait, so Mormons don’t believe the Father started out as a man? Isn’t this what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse?

Zach Dunn,
I appreciate your having asked for the clarification. Joseph Smith’s transcribed talk included a statement that “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” In the same part of his talk, he explained that Jesus did everything He had seen His Father do, which makes more sense to me in that we are in no way comparable to Jesus nor were we ever, and Jesus was singularly comparable to God the Father.

So for Joseph Smith to have said God “was once as we are now” and that He dwelt on an earth, is in the same respect as to say that Jesus was “once as we are now” (meaning that He lived on earth with a body and was given to choose whether to live righteously or not, so God the Father at one time made the same kinds of choices that Jesus made, on a different “earth”, and that Each of Them made absolutely perfect choices when They lived on an “earth” before Their resurrection.)

Furthermore, we know that Christ is Alpha and Omega, the Only Begotten of the Father, and inherited qualities from His Father that were unique to Him alone. Christ was like unto the Father, but we are not nor ever were even remotely like Them because we have an immense quantity of imperfections that They never had. The plan They had and are executing circumvents the natural course of eternal law that would say we cannot possibly become like Christ in any respect, let alone inherit a joint throne with Him, which is why His perfect grace is such an unimaginable gift of mercy and love.

 

[paul_c]

Zach Dunn,
I appreciate your having asked for the clarification. Joseph Smith’s transcribed talk included a statement that “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” In the same part of his talk, he explained that Jesus did everything He had seen His Father do, which makes more sense to me in that we are in no way comparable to Jesus nor were we ever, and Jesus was singularly comparable to God the Father.

So for Joseph Smith to have said God “was once as we are now” and that He dwelt on an earth, is in the same respect as to say that Jesus was “once as we are now” (meaning that He lived on earth with a body and was given to choose whether to live righteously or not, so God the Father at one time made the same kinds of choices that Jesus made, on a different “earth”, and that Each of Them made absolutely perfect choices when They lived on an “earth” before Their resurrection.)

Furthermore, we know that Christ is Alpha and Omega, the Only Begotten of the Father, and inherited qualities from His Father that were unique to Him alone. Christ was like unto the Father, but we are not nor ever were even remotely like Them because we have an immense quantity of imperfections that They never had. The plan They had and are executing circumvents the natural course of eternal law that would say we cannot possibly become like Christ in any respect, let alone inherit a joint throne with Him, which is why His perfect grace is such an unimaginable gift of mercy and love.

Parker,
the Catholic Church has a catechism that explains its teachings on line for all to see and understand: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It seems that there are many misunderstandings about what the LDS really teaches. We are told that Brigham Young said God was Adam but that it was only his opinion and not doctrine. Is there a Mormon Catechism on line that we can see?

 

[Xavierlives]

Zach Dunn,
I appreciate your having asked for the clarification. Joseph Smith’s transcribed talk included a statement that “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” In the same part of his talk, he explained that Jesus did everything He had seen His Father do, which makes more sense to me in that we are in no way comparable to Jesus nor were we ever, and Jesus was singularly comparable to God the Father.

So for Joseph Smith to have said God “was once as we are now” and that He dwelt on an earth, is in the same respect as to say that Jesus was “once as we are now” (meaning that He lived on earth with a body and was given to choose whether to live righteously or not, so God the Father at one time made the same kinds of choices that Jesus made, on a different “earth”, and that Each of Them made absolutely perfect choices when They lived on an “earth” before Their resurrection.)

Furthermore, we know that Christ is Alpha and Omega, the Only Begotten of the Father, and inherited qualities from His Father that were unique to Him alone. Christ was like unto the Father, but we are not nor ever were even remotely like Them because we have an immense quantity of imperfections that They never had. The plan They had and are executing circumvents the natural course of eternal law that would say we cannot possibly become like Christ in any respect, let alone inherit a joint throne with Him, which is why His perfect grace is such an unimaginable gift of mercy and love.

I’m still not sure I am clear on this point:

Mormons believe the “joint heir” means they will share Christ throne. How does this not mean equal to God in your book?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Zach Dunn,

So for Joseph Smith to have said God “was once as we are now” and that He dwelt on an earth, is in the same respect as to say that Jesus was “once as we are now” (meaning that He lived on earth with a body and was given to choose whether to live righteously or not, so God the Father at one time made the same kinds of choices that Jesus made, on a different “earth”, and that Each of Them made absolutely perfect choices when They lived on an “earth” before Their resurrection.)

So, if your “God the Father” was once like Jesus, who was his “God the Father”?

 

[Xavierlives]

Parker,
the Catholic Church has a catechism that explains its teachings on line for all to see and understand: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It seems that there are many misunderstandings about what the LDS really teaches. We are told that Brigham Young said God was Adam but that it was only his opinion and not doctrine. Is there a Mormon Catechism on line that we can see?

As I have been told by Mormons here, they don’t really go by the sermons of any of their prophets or teachers (or more pointedly, they don’t accept it as official church doctrine). They also don’t accept the Journal of Discourse, Joseph Smith’s History, Joseph Smith’s Journals, and the Deseret News. I should say they “accept” them as long as they follow the official church doctrine, but when they vary, they don’t. They do accept the D&C as doctrine and a part of their scripture.

 

[Tmaque]

Zach Dunn,
I appreciate your having asked for the clarification. Joseph Smith’s transcribed talk included a statement that “God Himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” In the same part of his talk, he explained that Jesus did everything He had seen His Father do, which makes more sense to me in that we are in no way comparable to Jesus nor were we ever, and Jesus was singularly comparable to God the Father.

So for Joseph Smith to have said God “was once as we are now” and that He dwelt on an earth, is in the same respect as to say that Jesus was “once as we are now” (meaning that He lived on earth with a body and was given to choose whether to live righteously or not, so God the Father at one time made the same kinds of choices that Jesus made, on a different “earth”, and that Each of Them made absolutely perfect choices when They lived on an “earth” before Their resurrection.)

Furthermore, we know that Christ is Alpha and Omega, the Only Begotten of the Father, and inherited qualities from His Father that were unique to Him alone. Christ was like unto the Father, but we are not nor ever were even remotely like Them because we have an immense quantity of imperfections that They never had. The plan They had and are executing circumvents the natural course of eternal law that would say we cannot possibly become like Christ in any respect, let alone inherit a joint throne with Him, which is why His perfect grace is such an unimaginable gift of mercy and love.

Parker, If I were to call any of my six, active LDS siblings right now and ask them this question they would say (as I was taught) God WAS once a man and we can become a god, just like God himself. Why the disparity of belief here?

 

[ParkerD]

I’m still not sure I am clear on this point:

Mormons believe the “joint heir” means they will share Christ throne. How does this not mean equal to God in your book?

Xavierlives,
Because the power source is God and Christ. This is not an “equality” situation, clearly not.

 

[sablouwho]

the Catholic Church has a catechism that explains its teachings on line for all to see and understand: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It seems that there are many misunderstandings about what the LDS really teaches. We are told that Brigham Young said God was Adam but that it was only his opinion and not doctrine. ** Is there a Mormon Catechism on line that we can see?**

I am not sure about this, but I suspect not. Here’s why…

A close LDS friend who has studied theology in a Protestant setting told me recently that one of the things that the LDS lacks is a systematic theology. And he freely admits that he feels that this is an area (one of several, actually) where he feels the LDS Church could improve.

Thus, without a systematic theology in place, it would be hard to imagine that there is a LDS version of a cathechism. However, that is just my guess, I don’t know for certain. I am sure that one of the LDS posters will let us know if something like this exists.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, If I were to call any of my six, active LDS siblings right now and ask them this question they would say (as I was taught) God WAS once a man and we can become a god, just like God himself. Why the disparity of belief here?

Tmaque,
Many LDS haven’t read the King Follett Discourse, nor the Lectures on Faith. The King Follett Discourse explains that the reason Joseph Smith knew what he knew about God the Father with respect to His having lived a life on an earth, was because of reading the New Testament and seeing the passage where Christ says He did as He had seen His Father do.

The idea “as man now is, God once was” is an overly simplistic couplet that has been used but that unfortunately is too simplistic as far as the real doctrine that Joseph Smith taught.

 

[ParkerD]

I am not sure about this, but I suspect not. Here’s why…

A close LDS friend who has studied theology in a Protestant setting told me recently that one of the things that the LDS lacks is a systematic theology. And he freely admits that he feels that this is an area (one of several, actually) where he feels the LDS Church could improve.

But yet anyone can go on lds.org and follow links to basic beliefs or to articles and sources for every teaching except sacred temple ordinance covenants. The basic beliefs are not hidden away at all. The thirteen Articles of Faith are closest to a “catechism” type of set-up.

 

[Tmaque]

Tmaque,
Many LDS haven’t read the King Follett Discourse, nor the Lectures on Faith. The King Follett Discourse explains that the reason Joseph Smith knew what he knew about God the Father with respect to His having lived a life on an earth, was because of reading the New Testament and seeing the passage where Christ says He did as He had seen His Father do.

The idea “as man now is, God once was” is an overly simplistic couplet that has been used but that unfortunately is too simplistic as far as the real doctrine that Joseph Smith taught.

Oh please, my family is as devout as they come and they’ve read the lectures on faith, believe me! Right now I have 3 nephews on missions! The fact is they believe something you don’t. Why is that? Either you or they believe something not currently taught by the LDS Church. This should be a concern for you. My partner in my company is the Elder’s quorum president in his ward. I’m going to ask him this question on Monday and get his response. This idea you’ve proposed is simply not what I was taught as a young man attending the Cannon 1st ward in Salt Lake City in the 1970’s and early 80’s.

 

[sablouwho]

But yet anyone can go on lds.org and follow links to basic beliefs or to articles and sources for every teaching except sacred temple ordinance covenants. The basic beliefs are not hidden away at all. The thirteen Articles of Faith are closest to a “catechism” type of set-up.

I didn’t say that there were!

When I was an investigator, it would have been very helpful to me if the LDS had some sort of equivalent to the CCC. Because in my RCIA class, we read from and use the CCC all the time. I appreciate that it exists in book and is not just something to look up online.