LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

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JMJ4 said:
Hi ParkerD-

On page 8 of The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ it states “The Apostles were killed, and priesthood authority -including the keys to direct and receive revelation for the Church-was taken from the earth…”

I asked the visiting LDS missionaries if they were aware that John lived to be an old man, into his nineties, and that he was not killed as stated in the pamphlet they provided.

They said it shouldn’t matter and that I should let them move forward with their presentation/talk.

It does matter because the pamphlet is misleading and incorrect.

How can the LDS distribute literature that does not correlate with church teachings?
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A Mormon will do or say whatever he thinks is necessary to get you to accept Joseph Smith and Mormonism. He will lie, deny Mormon doctrines, I dare say he will deny Christ if necessary to get you to join his church. A Mormon is just like a Muslim - to “lie for the Lord” is acceptable and even honorable if it will further the cause of his religion.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)
 
PaulDupre said:
A Mormon will do or say whatever he thinks is necessary to get you to accept Joseph Smith and Mormonism. He will lie, deny Mormon doctrines, I dare say he will deny Christ if necessary to get you to join his church. A Mormon is just like a Muslim - to “lie for the Lord” is acceptable and even honorable if it will further the cause of his religion.
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Hi Paul,

I hope you don’t mind that I have a few questions about what you have written here.

First, what would be the motivation to lie? Why would they want to get someone baptized only to risk having the new convert go inactive once they “find out the weird stuff?” What is the reason, in your opinion, that they will do say anything to get you to join the church? I don’t understand the desperation to get people to convert?

Second, an observation more than a question… Basically, my own experience with the LDS doesn’t track with what you have written here. I have found that my orthodox LDS friends are consistent in what they have discussed with me. I have found them to be people of high integrity. Some of the arguments that they have made are not very strong, well-reasoned or logical, but I don’t doubt their sincerity for a moment – I really believe that they believe everything that they are telling me.
 
ParkerD said:
JMJ4,
I think you have asked a relevant question here. I’ve thought about such a question myself, and am aware that it is a case where the details of explaining about “translated beings” goes off on a tangent that would easily side-track a communication process.

If I had been writing such a piece, I myself would have felt it necessary to explain something about John being an exception. That certainly is a known thing in the LDS church. I don’t think the intent is to be “misleading”, but the intent is to explain that the apostleship calling was taken from the midst of the people. But, yeah, it can be argued that saying all the apostles died or were killed is an incorrect statement.
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Hi ParkerD- Don’t you think the literature should be re-written to clearly state the LDS teaching on this issue?
(I am sure not many people have the book The Twelve: The Lives of the Apostles After Calvary on their shelf for reference as I happened to when the missionaries were over!)

As far as sidetracking the communication process, I was unable to move forward with any more of what the missionary had to say because he refused to explain why the pamphlet claimed that all of the Apostles had been killed when I knew that was not true.

I am not the kind of person that can be “moved along” when discussing a claim as big as The Great Apostasy!
 
JMJ4 said:
Hi ParkerD- Don’t you think the literature should be re-written to clearly state the LDS teaching on this issue?
(I am sure not many people have the book The Twelve: The Lives of the Apostles After Calvary on their shelf for reference as I happened to when the missionaries were over!)

As far as sidetracking the communication process, I was unable to move forward with any more of what the missionary had to say because he refused to explain why the pamphlet claimed that all of the Apostles had been killed when I knew that was not true.

I am not the kind of person that can be “moved along” when discussing a claim as big as The Great Apostasy!
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JMJ4,
I happen to think you have made a very important point. If you give me permission, I think it is important enough that I would be willing to write a brief explanation about what you have written here, to a friend or two of mine who have a level of responsibility in dealing with those kinds of issues for missionaries. You have made a valid point. Maybe it has been brought up before with them, and if so I suppose I will hear back on the issue.

Please do let me know if your story as relates to this particular concern can be shared with them (no names of course, just a real life example that is pertinent to explaining about that topic with greater accuracy.)
 
ParkerD said:
Tmaque,
There are two distinct beliefs that each involve using the King Follett Discourse, but if one reads the entire discourse and the foundational teaching that Joseph Smith gave using reference to the New Testament and what Jesus said about what He had seen His Father do, then the conclusion to be drawn is that Jesus did what He saw His Father do. It is a simple concept. There are many LDS who draw the conclusion I’ve drawn based on the same reading of the transcription of Joseph Smith’s talk.

You may go ahead and ask whomever you like, of course, and then follow up with the question of how familiar they are with the King Follett Discourse.

You were probably taught the couplet by Lorenzo Snow that he wrote as a young man.
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I have a question that may seem trivial, but I am curious. It is my understanding that when a man is exalted he and his wife procreate billions of people to inhabit their new planet, correct? If this is true, how could Christ have “seen” the Father do these things if Christ had not been created yet . . . ? Please correct me if I am wrong on the first part. Thanks!
 
zach_dunn said:
I have a question that may seem trivial, but I am curious. It is my understanding that when a man is exalted he and his wife procreate billions of people to inhabit their new planet, correct? If this is true, how could Christ have “seen” the Father do these things if Christ had not been created yet . . . ? Please correct me if I am wrong on the first part. Thanks!
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Hi, Zach Dunn,
I have never heard that taught, although I can see why one could think that if they go in the direction that some of the speculation leads (mostly by people who are not serious doctrinal students but delight in speculating about the “grand scheme of things”). We don’t really know much about the Celestial Kingdom to the extent of understanding what being a co-creator through Christ and the Father and Their power being granted through joint-heirship means. We do know it means that a celestial marriage involves making covenants that when fulfilled will mean a “continuation of the seeds” or a “continuation of lives” in the Celestial glory. It does not have to mean that worlds created (organized) by those who inherit that glory, will be populated by only the spirit children of a particular couple. I don’t think we know. We do know that Adam (Michael) has a role that involves his entire righteous posterity, who are “sealed” to their progenitors and eventually that sealing line goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. So there may be group endeavors regarding creation of earths and populating those earths with spirits who become born into mortality on those earths, all under the directing and guiding influence of Heavenly Father through the power He shares with those who have shown that they can be absolutely trusted with such heavenly power, and have shown an absolute centrality of faith in Christ.

We also don’t know what the process is for bringing a spirit into being from their earlier state of being an “intelligence”. It is definitely not pregnancy in a womb.
We simply don’t know.

For Christ to have “seen” what the Father did, would be either that He had the ability to look eternally backward in time through His intelligence and knowledge, to see the earlier point in eternal time when the Father lived on an earth, or He being Alpha and Omega in our universe was in a condition in the earlier “universe” where He watched the Father live on an earth. We must remember that Christ is singularly infinitely advanced compared to any other intelligence in eternity.
 
ParkerD said:
Hi, Zach Dunn,
I have never heard that taught, although I can see why one could think that if they go in the direction that some of the speculation leads (mostly by people who are not serious doctrinal students but delight in speculating about the “grand scheme of things”). We don’t really know much about the Celestial Kingdom to the extent of understanding what being a co-creator through Christ and the Father and Their power being granted through joint-heirship means. We do know it means that a celestial marriage involves making covenants that when fulfilled will mean a “continuation of the seeds” or a “continuation of lives” in the Celestial glory. It does not have to mean that worlds created (organized) by those who inherit that glory, will be populated by only the spirit children of a particular couple. I don’t think we know. We do know that Adam (Michael) has a role that involves his entire righteous posterity, who are “sealed” to their progenitors and eventually that sealing line goes all the way back to Adam and Eve. So there may be group endeavors regarding creation of earths and populating those earths with spirits who become born into mortality on those earths, all under the directing and guiding influence of Heavenly Father through the power He shares with those who have shown that they can be absolutely trusted with such heavenly power, and have shown an absolute centrality of faith in Christ.

We also don’t know what the process is for bringing a spirit into being from their earlier state of being an “intelligence”. It is definitely not pregnancy in a womb.
We simply don’t know.

For Christ to have “seen” what the Father did, would be either that He had the ability to look eternally backward in time through His intelligence and knowledge, to see the earlier point in eternal time when the Father lived on an earth, or He being Alpha and Omega in our universe was in a condition in the earlier “universe” where He watched the Father live on an earth. We must remember that Christ is singularly infinitely advanced compared to any other intelligence in eternity.
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I am wondering, does Joseph Smith refer to John 8:38 when he talks about Christ “seeing” what the Father has done?
 
I know I am accused of seeing scriputure one way. Thats really the only answer I have got here when I asked my question. That they don’t call Jesus a Liar, they just don’t see scripture the way the Apostles taught it and my Church taught it.

But one scripture keeps coming to mind. I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOUR ORPHANS, I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF TIME.

How is there a possible OTHER way of seeing it. I mean its so clear. I will NEVER LEAVE YOU, I Will be with you ALWAYS until the end of time. There is just no other way of reading it.🤷
 
rinnie said:
I know I am accused of seeing scriputure one way. Thats really the only answer I have got here when I asked my question. That they don’t call Jesus a Liar, they just don’t see scripture the way the Apostles taught it and my Church taught it.

But one scripture keeps coming to mind. I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOUR ORPHANS, I WILL BE WITH YOU UNTIL THE END OF TIME.

How is there a possible OTHER way of seeing it. I mean its so clear. I will NEVER LEAVE YOU, I Will be with you ALWAYS until the end of time. There is just no other way of reading it.🤷
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Rinnie,
He is with you, and you are a very kind person. He has always loved you, and does now, and lives forever as He said, with you always on His mind.

I enjoyed reading your post about your loved one who passed away recently. Have a wonderful day.
 
ParkerD said:
Rinnie,
He is with you, and you are a very kind person. He has always loved you, and does now, and lives forever as He said, with you always on His mind.

I enjoyed reading your post about your loved one who passed away recently. Have a wonderful day.
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Parker I LOVE YOU!!!😃
 
ParkerD said:
Rinnie,
He is with you, and you are a very kind person. He has always loved you, and does now, and lives forever as He said, with you always on His mind.
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You are always on His mind, but He abandoned you 1800 years ago. Makes sense.
 
Parker,
Seriously, can you give any evidence of the Great apostasy other than the opinions of the LDS leadership, including Joseph Smith. Because obviously, the entire credibility of the Mormon church is dependent on this. If there was NO great apostasy, there would be no need for the Mormon church after all. And of course, all those new doctrines created by Joseph Smith would be shown to be lies. Everything in your faith is dependent on there actually being a great apostasy, but yet its discussed only in very generic terms by Mormons: it is supposed to have happened right after apostolic times by unnamed leaders taking on unstate authority to pull the church away from Christ. Are we to thus assume these unnamed leaders were more powerful than Jesus?
 
ParkerD said:
Xavierlives,
Hello and good day. Christ is so much more than a church. Is that not clear to you from the Bible?
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Now I get to chuckle I guess. There are moments when you make me scratch my head and go, hmm… I can’t believe he said that. I think it is absolutely great that you feel that way, Parker.

But, let go to a hypothetical. Lets say there is a person stranded on a desert isle. Up washes a complete Book of Mormon, D&C, & Book of Abraham in a watertight pouch. When they read it and become an Investigator and start reading it, won’t after some time, they really become discouraged, because they realize they cannot do their temple work. They are stuck on this lonely isle and everything they need for salvation is found in some building in Salt Lake City.

Now, a stranded person on a different isle gets a copy of the Bible in a water tight pouch and they read from the word, they see the examples of Christ, that everything that he needs to be saved is right there in his hands. He doesn’t people or buildings. He doesn’t need to tithe or geneology research. He only needs to believe and be baptized. Since he is the only person, his public profession is going to be less public, but he has all of the makings for becoming a Christian.
 
paul_c said:
Parker,
Seriously, can you give any evidence of the Great apostasy other than the opinions of the LDS leadership, including Joseph Smith. Because obviously, the entire credibility of the Mormon church is dependent on this. If there was NO great apostasy, there would be no need for the Mormon church after all. And of course, all those new doctrines created by Joseph Smith would be shown to be lies. Everything in your faith is dependent on there actually being a great apostasy, but yet its discussed only in very generic terms by Mormons: it is supposed to have happened right after apostolic times by unnamed leaders taking on unstate authority to pull the church away from Christ. Are we to thus assume these unnamed leaders were more powerful than Jesus?
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Well along that line, Christ himself appeared in person to thousands and thousands during his ministry to validate the apostacy of the Jews and the need for Christ’s change in God’s followers, but Joseph Smith was the only one visited and given the message of the dramatic change from Christ’s message.
 
Xavierlives said:
Now I get to chuckle I guess. There are moments when you make me scratch my head and go, hmm… I can’t believe he said that. I think it is absolutely great that you feel that way, Parker.

But, let go to a hypothetical. Lets say there is a person stranded on a desert isle. Up washes a complete Book of Mormon, D&C, & Book of Abraham in a watertight pouch. When they read it and become an Investigator and start reading it, won’t after some time, they really become discouraged, because they realize they cannot do their temple work. They are stuck on this lonely isle and everything they need for salvation is found in some building in Salt Lake City.

Now, a stranded person on a different isle gets a copy of the Bible in a water tight pouch and they read from the word, they see the examples of Christ, that everything that he needs to be saved is right there in his hands. He doesn’t people or buildings. He doesn’t need to tithe or geneology research. He only needs to believe and be baptized. Since he is the only person, his public profession is going to be less public, but he has all of the makings for becoming a Christian.
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Xavierlives,
If that latter example works for you, then that’s fine with me, and I certainly consider you a Christian in every sense of the word. But if you’re saying the Bible doesn’t talk about keys and authority, then I question how much you have really read the Bible–yet that means only that you have may not have read it thoroughly, not that you may not be practicing its teachings to the best of your ability and putting your heart and soul into it.
 
zach_dunn said:
Wait, so Mormons don’t believe the Father started out as a man? Isn’t this what Joseph Smith taught in the King Follett Discourse?
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Zach,

Not necessarily, Christ did not start as a man, but became a man…and “the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.” John 5:19

So, It is possible that the father also atoned for the sins of another mankind on another planet.
 
paul_c said:
Parker,
the Catholic Church has a catechism that explains its teachings on line for all to see and understand: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

It seems that there are many misunderstandings about what the LDS really teaches. We are told that Brigham Young said God was Adam but that it was only his opinion and not doctrine. Is there a Mormon Catechism on line that we can see?
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Official Mormons beliefs are in the canonical books and in the first presidency pronouncements and sometimes in conjunction with the 12 apostles. Individual speeches do not constitute official doctrines. But a good starting point would be lds.org
 
evanfaust said:
Official Mormons beliefs are in the canonical books and in the first presidency pronouncements and sometimes in conjunction with the 12 apostles. Individual speeches do not constitute official doctrines. But a good starting point would be lds.org
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This reminds me of a joke I heard when I started my initial investigation into LDS:
Catholics “say” that the Pope is infallible, but they don’t believe it. Whereas Mormons say that their prophets ARE fallible, but they don’t believe it…***

…or something along those lines.
 
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