LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[paul_c]

Paul,

First, I have a confirmation of the restoration, Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith from the Holly Ghost.
Second, the history of Joseph Smith, his revelations and the heavenly manifestations that accompanied his followers are undeniable.
Third, everything Joseph Smith said has a taste of truth.
Fourth, the restoration makes sense and fits the Bible puzzle like a glove!

Evan, all of this is totally dependent on the credibility of Joseph Smith. Saying that Joseph Smith is the Prophet of God because Joseph Smith wrote books that say he is the Prophet of God is completely circular. As for everythign that Joseph Smith said having a taste of truth, wouldn’t you expect everything that THE Prophet of God said would be Completely truthful. For Mormons, he largely replaces Jesus Christ, altering and correcting his teachings and bringing out a new convenant after the one that Jesus established was lost through the Great apostasy, right? And I would argue vehemently that if the restoration fits the Bible like a glove, why did Joseph Smith need to alter the Bible?

As far as Emma Smith, she always believed Joseph. Joseph died and she became free to marry whoever she loved.

These are her words at 76 before she died, these words were recorded by her son Joseph Smith III

“My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity - I have not the slightest doubt of it. I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired; for, when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals, or after interruptions, he could at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this; and, for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.”

moroni10.com/witnesses/Emma_Smith.html

Actions speak louder than words, don’t they. After doing that translation, she refused to join the LDS church for 6 months. And when Joseph Smith died, she broke from the church and never returned. And isn’t it forbidden that a mormon marry outside the faith, yet she did. And she sued the LDS for money as well. Hardly the actions of a woman that believed she had been married to God’s one true prophet. The most she could say in his defense was that he could keep his place when dictating. She could hardly say less without completely destroying the legacy Joseph Smith left for thier children I’m sorry but this really isn’t very compelling.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives,
If that latter example works for you, then that’s fine with me, and I certainly consider you a Christian in every sense of the word. But if you’re saying the Bible doesn’t talk about keys and authority, then I question how much you have really read the Bible–yet that means only that you have may not have read it thoroughly, not that you may not be practicing its teachings to the best of your ability and putting your heart and soul into it.

Parker,

While I appreciate what you do for this board, I’m going to have to ask for you to refrain from any guesswork into my life. You do not know me. You do not know my study habits or the tattooing of the Word on my heart, so until you do, if you have a question about my interpretation about something, ask. If you have a question about my faith, ask. If you want to know about me, ask. Don’t assume to know me and know anything about my studying or practice. Moreover don’t make comments to the such.

XL

 

[Answersplease]

Xavierlives,
If that latter example works for you, then that’s fine with me, and I certainly consider you a Christian in every sense of the word. But if you’re saying the Bible doesn’t talk about keys and authority, then I question how much you have really read the Bible–yet that means only that you have may not have read it thoroughly, not that you may not be practicing its teachings to the best of your ability and putting your heart and soul into it.

 

[Xavierlives]

Hi, Kikkichan,
I hope your family hasn’t had too much difficulty with the weather issues there in Washington DC. Thanks for asking about this in your always-kindly way.

A “translated being” is like what happened to Enoch and the city of Enoch, except that they were taken into “heaven” whereas John had asked to remain on the earth to bring people to Christ. It means he does so without revealing to them who he is, and does so wearing the clothes their own culture would wear, but he is able to be a “preparer of the way” just like John the Baptist was a “preparer of the way.” He visits with isolated people in remote parts of the world, and we don’t hear about it because they are not aware of who paid them a visit, but know their life is changed by the visit in that they come to a better understanding about Christ, because of the sincerity of their heart.

John will eventually “die” and be resurrected, and that will be a different kind of change in his body than the change that involves being “translated”. It is something God knows how to do with a mortal body so that it is not subject for the time being with aging and death.

Peace to you and your family, Kikkichan (R.E.)

Sometime in the last 3 months I think NCR has had the conversation about John not dying. I just can’t remember anything about other than reading the last chapter of John and saying, huh? You think that… from that?

I am amazed that someone can believe that a man can live for 2000 years but that God can’t create the world in 7 days.

 

[Answersplease]

Xavierlives,
If that latter example works for you, then that’s fine with me, and I certainly consider you a Christian in every sense of the word. But if you’re saying the Bible doesn’t talk about keys and authority, then I question how much you have really read the Bible–yet that means only that you have may not have read it thoroughly, not that you may not be practicing its teachings to the best of your ability and putting your heart and soul into it.

Parker,

While I appreciate what you do for this board, I’m going to have to ask for you to refrain from any guesswork into my life. You do not know me. You do not know my study habits or the tattooing of the Word on my heart, so until you do, if you have a question about my interpretation about something, ask. If you have a question about my faith, ask. If you want to know about me, ask. Don’t assume to know me and know anything about my studying or practice. Moreover don’t make comments to the such.

XL

(color highlight added to the original text)

mrm.org/praying-about-bofm

In essence, the test of Moroni 10:4 is a no-win situation. The one who is challenged must accept the book as true otherwise his integrity is placed under suspicion.
I’m guessing that if you don’t come to the same understanding as they do, then they think the fault is with you.

 

[Xavierlives]

Rebecca,

Are Christians monotheists?
Any discussion with Jews or Muslims will quickly demonstrate no Christian is, strictly speaking, a monotheist.

One of the chief objections by Jews and Muslims is Christians are polytheists. Most brands of Christians insist on the divinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In addition, the very word those who crafted the great ecumenical creeds used to describe the deity of Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit is “trinity,” meaning three. Additionally, they insisted the three Persons should not be confounded, as such would be deemed modalism (one of the primary heresies that led to the formation of the ecumenical creeds and various confessions). Modalism often insists the one God merely appears to us in three different ways (i.e., as Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and this is exactly what the creeds deny.

The only problem with your theory is God says there is only one. Hmmm… So if God says it, then guess what? I’ll take Him at His word. By saying otherwise is to change God’s word which is a dangerous business.

 

[Xavierlives]

In essence, the test of Moroni 10:4 is a no-win situation. The one who is challenged must accept the book as true otherwise his integrity is placed under suspicion.

I’m guessing that if you don’t come to the same understanding as they do, then they think the fault is with you.

Maybe this is why I don’t have a problem praying about this. Because my prayer is simple: God, show me the truth. I make no mention of the BoM or JS or anything else. Just, the truth and He never fails me. It is the most consistantly answered prayer I have.

 

[Xavierlives]

First, I have a confirmation of the restoration, Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith from the Holly Ghost.

That is interesting because the Holy Ghost tells me it is a lie.

Second, the history of Joseph Smith, his revelations and the heavenly manifestations that accompanied his followers are undeniable.

I find everything about him worthy of denying who he claimed to be. From his false vision of God and Jesus, his adultery, his contempt for govenment, his false prophecies, it all shows he is not from God.

Third, everything Joseph Smith said has a taste of truth.

And that in lies the problem. He needs more than a taste. Satan had a taste of the truth when he tempted Christ by quoting Psalm 91.

Fourth, the restoration makes sense and fits the Bible puzzle like a glove!

A “restoration” of the Church implies a failure on God’s part. My God does not fail.

 

[sablouwho]

Maybe this is why I don’t have a problem praying about this. Because my prayer is simple: God, show me the truth. I make no mention of the BoM or JS or anything else. Just, the truth and He never fails me. It is the most consistantly answered prayer I have.

I prayed a similar prayer when I was looking into whether Jesus was the real deal. (I got a whopping affirmative answer, else I wouldn’t be on CAF!) I told God I’d follow any path that he showed me was true (with the caveat that “so long as it wasn’t Islam” – hey, I’m a Jewish girl, whaddya expect?)!

I prayed similarly about the LDS thing. I was careful in my prayers, similar to Xavier above.

Yet no burning in the bosom.

And yeah, I think that my LDS friends (with the exception of one, who is half-Catholic, long story there!) think that there must be something wrong with ME since I am not getting the “correct” answer. Some of their explanations to explain away what is happening have been interesting.

 

[sablouwho]

First, I have a confirmation of the restoration, Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith from the Holly Ghost.

I sincerely believe that God works with people “where they’re at.” And I do believe you have the confirmation of which you speak. Thus I sincerely believe that according to what you’ve said above, that you are indeed in the appropriate faith place to live out your relationship with God.

Unfortunately, your having a confirmation of the restoration, JS’s prophethood and the BoM doesn’t mean that the LDS church is where everyone is meant to live out their relationship with God. This must be the case…afterall…sincere people (such as myself) have prayed on this very issue and yet NOT gotten the same answer that you received. (Of course, the other option is to blame the person who prayed as not being sincere in intent, which I find deeply problematic.

Second, the history of Joseph Smith, his revelations and the heavenly manifestations that accompanied his followers are undeniable.

Which version? The first vision story and others have evolved over time. LDS history has been sanitized.

 

[rinnie]

Evan, Your church says because People left the Catholic Church the CC failed. That does not make sense. Since when did Jesus Christ become people. Jesus left us the free will to accept him or reject him. Now how in the world is people using their own free will and rejecting CHrist mean he left the Church?

Because I read you Church’s teaching and that is what it said.

But here is what Jesus Christ said he said I WILL NEVER LEAVE THE CC. He said him and the Church are one in Christ. He said his church is build on rock, not sand and will stand forever. He said I will not leave your orphans. He said the Church would be here until the end of time.

He never said that the first time a person turns their back on the True Church that the True Church would fail. Why do you believe such foolish teachings.

What your church teaches is not what Jesus said. Its as simple as that. The church did not fail, and your church is saying because People failed Christ did. That is so wrong.

Where did Jesus say that Man would never sin, and would never use their free will, to sin, where did Jesus ever say all Man would accept his teachings and not reject him, He never did.

And where did Jesus say if man turned away from the CC he would also? Please show me that teaching. Because it is indeed a teaching of the mormon Church and JS but not Jesus Christ thats for sure. If so you would be able to show it.

 

[rinnie]

And evan a TASTE of Truth. Please. Is not a taste of Truth also a half truth. And does not the devil live on half truths?

You cannot take the word of God, and twist it all around and call it a taste of truth. You need the fullness of the truth. Anything else is unacceptable…

 

[mackbrislawn]

Hmm…if the first church failed, maybe the second one can as well. Maybe it already has. If God allowed it to happen once, will He allow it to happen again?

 

[evanfaust]

Evan, all of this is totally dependent on the credibility of Joseph Smith. Saying that Joseph Smith is the Prophet of God because Joseph Smith wrote books that say he is the Prophet of God is completely circular. As for everythign that Joseph Smith said having a taste of truth, wouldn’t you expect everything that THE Prophet of God said would be Completely truthful. For Mormons, he largely replaces Jesus Christ, altering and correcting his teachings and bringing out a new convenant after the one that Jesus established was lost through the Great apostasy, right? And I would argue vehemently that if the restoration fits the Bible like a glove, why did Joseph Smith need to alter the Bible?

Paul,

The credibility of Joseph is not circular. You can establish his credibility in many different ways. The first is to see other people seeing what he saw, many other people experiencing what he did. Joseph made many prophecies that are verified, and many more at the individual level, where the people involved testifyed of their fulfilling. The other way to look at it is the integrity and sincerity of the prophet, not looking through the lens of his enemies, who distorted and lied about him. He was a good man, good husband and cared for people around him more than anything else. The Book of Mormon and other scriptures that he left is another way of establishing his credibility. But please go to the right source, don’t just believe all the “anti-mormon” garbage you see around you.

No Mormon will ever tell you that Joseph replaces Jesus Christ! In fact, this belief is subject to excomunication from the LDS church. I don’t know where you gather some of this information.

Joseph corrected the Bible up to a point, because he did not complete his work. But he received all the revelations clarifying the obscure and fragmentary points of doctrine in the Biblie. Most people will agree that we don’t have any original books of the Bible, and that the originals got copied many times manully before we even got what we have. I don’t think it comes as a surprise that the Bible is not perfect.

 

[evanfaust]

I sincerely believe that God works with people “where they’re at.” And I do believe you have the confirmation of which you speak. Thus I sincerely believe that according to what you’ve said above, that you are indeed in the appropriate faith place to live out your relationship with God.

Unfortunately, your having a confirmation of the restoration, JS’s prophethood and the BoM doesn’t mean that the LDS church is where everyone is meant to live out their relationship with God. This must be the case…afterall…sincere people (such as myself) have prayed on this very issue and yet NOT gotten the same answer that you received. (Of course, the other option is to blame the person who prayed as not being sincere in intent, which I find deeply problematic.

Which version? The first vision story and others have evolved over time. LDS history has been sanitized.

Sablouwho,

I like your comments…especially because you ponder both sides and come to a moderate conclusion of the facts. You also agree that people go through different stages of faith and understanding of eternal truths during their lifetime. The LDS Church and doctrines make a lot of sense to me, but I agree that it does not for many others.

As far as the first vision, we have paralell in the Bible. Which version of Paul’s Vision is the most correct? Some people find contradiction in that story. Besides, many visions and revelations are not written immediatly. We see that in the books of the New Testament, many of them were written 10 or 20 years after the fact. When we tell people a story, we may focus on certain aspects of the story, but that does not mean that the story was invented later or altered.

 

[JMJ4]

Hi evanfaust - I will quote from The Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (page 8, The Great Apostasy) given to be by LDS missionaries:
:
“This apostasy resulted in the formation of many churches with conflicting teachings. During this time, many men and women sought the truth, but they were unable to find it. Many good people believed in God and Jesus Christ and tried to understand and teach truth, but they did not have the full gospel or priesthood authority. As a result, each generation inherited a state of apostasy as people were influenced by what previous generations passed on, including changes to Christ’s gospel.”

This clearly contradicts what you just said.

Would you please respond to this? Thanks!

 

[evanfaust]

Would you please respond to this? Thanks!

JMJ4,
There is no contradiction on what you pasted and what I described. What you stated from Mormon sources is another angle of the same picture. In fact, there were many churches or branches of the church that believed different things. This is confirmed by most of the books in the New Testament. In Galatians, for example, the apostle Paul chastised the Saints in that area for deviating from the correct doctrine taught by the Apostles. The book of Revelations talks about the 7 other branches of the church that could be cut off, due to heresies and wrong beliefs. The examples are many; you can see them clearly just by reading the New Testament alone. The apostasy had already started when the apostles were still alive. When they died, there was no leadership to show the Saints the correct way and since they were so divided in their beliefs they fell into apostasy.

Many doctrines like “man becoming gods”, “pre-mortal existence of the soul”, “degrees of glory” were preached by the early fathers; but the teachings were not unanimous throughout the church. The Saints were not ONE as the savior wanted. These same doctrines preached by some of the fathers are not found in the Catholic Church today. Do you see the point? Certain doctrines that Mormonism teaches today are found in the early roots of the church as the example above.

 

[JMJ4]

JMJ4,
First of all the apostasy in terms of doctrine was more gradual and not so sudden. We still see traces of truth in the wiritings of the fathers. I see the apostasy being composed of loss of doctrine and loss of authority. The loss of authority was more sudden witth the death of the apostles, while the loss of doctrine part of it was more gradual.

We quote the Old and the New Testament, even though they are both legacy of the Jew, who do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. We may quote passages of the Talmud, the Zohar and the apochrypha as supporting evidence of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Even during a period of apostasy there is still evidence of truth. Not all truth is lost or evaporated overnight. We see evidences of truth in Bhudism, Islam and many other religions. Every religion, no matter how apostate, they still possess traces of truth. It is not a matter of black or white.

contradictions

evanfaust: apostasy… was more gradual and not so sudden
mormon literature: priesthood authority and revelation taken from the earth as soon as all of the apostles were killed

evanfaust: we still see traces of truth in the writings
mormon literature: error crept into Church teachings
during this time, men and women sought the truth but could not find it

evanfaust: even during a period of apostasy there is still evidence of truth
mormon literature: each generation inherited a state of apostasy as people were influenced by what previous generations passed on, including changes to Christ’s gospel

 

[evanfaust]

evanfaust: apostasy… was more gradual and not so sudden
mormon literature: priesthood authority and revelation taken from the earth as soon as all of the apostles were killed.

JMJ4 - you omitted the word DOCTRINES after apostasy AND Completely ignored this sentence:

Evan: The loss of authority was more sudden with the death of the apostles, while the loss of doctrine part of it was more gradual.

I don’t know if you truly don’t want to understand or if you just want to stirr things up.
Again: NO CONTRADICTION…

evanfaust: we still see traces of truth in the writings
mormon literature: error crept into Church teachings
during this time, men and women sought the truth but could not find it

JMJ4 - Comment: Where is the contradiction? If we have traces of truth, it means that the original teachings got contaminated somehow, but still preserve some truths, as this is part of LDS teachings. The people did not have the Holly Ghost or the authority of the priesthood (foundation: prophets and apostles) so they could not discern what was truly and valid doctrine from what was contamination. Very simple and clear!

evanfaust: even during a period of apostasy there is still evidence of truth
mormon literature: each generation inherited a state of apostasy as people were influenced by what previous generations passed on, including changes to Christ’s gospel

JMJ$ - This is the cumulative effect. The production of more and more strange doctrines from men without (name removed by moderator)iration resulted in what we see today in the Catholic Church and resembling very litle the organization Christ established.

Read the following article…maybe it will clarify the confusion in your mind:

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/1999_Mormonism_in_the_Early_Jewish_Christian_Milieu.html

 

[ricko]

JMJ4,
There is no contradiction on what you pasted and what I described. What you stated from Mormon sources is another angle of the same picture. In fact, there were many churches or branches of the church that believed different things. This is confirmed by most of the books in the New Testament. In Galatians, for example, the apostle Paul chastised the Saints in that area for deviating from the correct doctrine taught by the Apostles. The book of Revelations talks about the 7 other branches of the church that could be cut off, due to heresies and wrong beliefs. The examples are many; you can see them clearly just by reading the New Testament alone. The apostasy had already started when the apostles were still alive. When they died, there was no leadership to show the Saints the correct way and since they were so divided in their beliefs they fell into apostasy.

The Church was experiencing “growing pains” ie: Jews becoming Christians, pagans becoming Christians. These problems were addressed and corrected. No where will you find where there was an apostasy. In fact if you would check the historical records you would find that the teachings of the original Church (the Catholic Church) agree with the bible. If you don’t want to find the truth and check history just look on this forum at the upper right for some history. Rather than find a Church that was crumbling you find a Church that was growing. After all, you Mormons completly ignore or twist what Christ said about HIS Church lasting till the end of the world. You have lost your reasonsing power (why establish a Church, say it will be protected by the Holy Spirit and last till the end only to have it end in less than 50 years. History shows you are wrong, common sense shows you are wrong. You choose to follow a man with a seer stone instead of Jesus Christ.

Many doctrines like “man becoming gods”, “pre-mortal existence of the soul”, “degrees of glory” were preached by the early fathers; but the teachings were not unanimous throughout the church. The Saints were not ONE as the savior wanted. These same doctrines preached by some of the fathers are not found in the Catholic Church today. Do you see the point? Certain doctrines that Mormonism teaches today are found in the early roots of the church as the example above.

The things that Mormons believe in are not part of the early church. They are the twisted beliefs of a man who had his own idea of what religion should be. His idea, not the truth and not of God. You follow a false prophet not a man of God.