LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[paul_c]

JMJ4,

The booklet you are quoting from is just the “mik” as you stated before. Missionaries just want to talk about the basics and help you and your family receive a testimony through the Holly Ghost. Missionaries are advised not to engage in arguments. They are there to testify of the Restoration and helpt people feel the spirit and a testimony. That is their main goal. Of course they are allowed to show scritpures up to a point, but if the “investigator” seems to be combative and not really trying to understand, then they may even stop seeing you depending on the circumstances. The true conversion is through the spirit and not by mainly by “argumentation”. It is a different setting than the one we have here.

If you go to lds.org or momon.com, you will see good explanantions, but it will not address each point in an exhaustive and profound way. It makes sense to give “milk” first and then “meat” like the apostle said. We have evidence from the fathers stating this point…“that the apostles knew everything, but did not teach all they knew in public.”

During my conversion I was ready for “meat” and did the investigation on my own by using other books.

But the point of the “apostles being killed” does not invalidate the Mormon claim, because the apostasy did not accur only because the apostles got killed. In reality, the Apostle being killed is a consequence of the apostasy…the apostle could have ordained other apostle an always replace the one that got killed, but that was not the Lord’s purpose. The gospel was already preached to every creature on the earth and that was the end of the dispensation of the Meridian of Times. John being alive and keeping the keys does not invalidade the claim of apostasy at all. John did not pass the key on to anyone until 1829 to Joseph Smith along with Peter and James.

The Mormon Church does not want to state in a basic literature that John never died because that is unecessary at that point and would cause more unecessary questions. John’s mission was no longer to be part of the Church…he was removed from it. His mission was something else.

Remember that Satan was given power to defeat and overcome all Saints. The Lord and the apostles knew about the apostasy well in advance.

Evan,
This is a stunning view. It is really hard for me to grasp why Jesus would have come to earth to be crucified, only to have the whole church apostasize within 30-50 years and render his teachings ineffective for 1800 years until his church could be rescued by Joseph Smith. So Jesus saved a handful of people for 1 generation and then no one was saved until Joseph Smith came along 1800 years later?

 

[evanfaust]

Evan,
This is a stunning view. It is really hard for me to grasp why Jesus would have come to earth to be crucified, only to have the whole church apostasize within 30-50 years and render his teachings ineffective for 1800 years until his church could be rescued by Joseph Smith. So Jesus saved a handful of people for 1 generation and then no one was saved until Joseph Smith came along 1800 years later?

Paul,
Jesus’ main mission was to atone for the sins of mankind, die, be resurrected and resurrect mankind. But he also created the universe, he was the God of the Old Testament, he left the legacy of the New Testament. He established his church and his gospel, he restored his church again prior do his second coming. He is also in control of Hades, or spirit world, which is right here on the earth (spiritual earth).So… Christ is in control of everything!

You complain about the 1800 years of apostasy, but you forget two things. First, there have been periods of apostasy during the times of Israel. For example, from Malachi to Jesus 500 years passed without prophets, prophecies or new scriptures among the Israelites.

Second, how many people have lived on this earth without hearing the gospel of Christ? Even if we consider the Catholic Church to be the true church, how much has it penetrated in the world during the last 1800 years? How many people never embraced Jesus Christ? Just today alone, the population of the world exceeds7 billion people on the earth. How many of them have accepted Christ and practice his teachings? The Catholic Church does not even hold 1 billion members? That is not even 15%. How about the billions that have died without knowing Christ? That amounts to several other billions. Just China and India alone accounts for over 2 billion people that are alive today and most of them are not even Christian.

Now, the answer is …preaching the gospel to the dead and baptizing them! If they have not heard of the gospel of Christ when alive, they will hear when they die! That tells me that God is fair and just! If you don’t consider salvation for the dead, we all should conclude that God s unjust!

The mission of the LDS Church is threefold…Proclaim the Gospel, Redeem the Dead and Perfect the Saints…that is global and universal! The gospel of Christ extends beyond the grave!

 

[ricko]

Posted by Evanfaust

**The gospel was already preached to every creature on the earth **and that was the end of the dispensation of the Meridian of Times. John being alive and keeping the keys does not invalidade the claim of apostasy at all. John did not pass the key on to anyone until 1829 to Joseph Smith along with Peter and James.

Second,** how many people have lived on this earth without hearing the gospel of Christ?** Even if we consider the Catholic Church to be the true church, how much has it penetrated in the world during the last 1800 years? How many people never embraced Jesus Christ? Just today alone, the population of the world exceeds7 billion people on the earth. How many of them have accepted Christ and practice his teachings? The Catholic Church does not even hold 1 billion members? That is not even 15%. How about the billions that have died without knowing Christ?

 

[evanfaust]

Posted by Evanfaust

Ricko,

How many people have lived since the death of the apostles? Were they baptized in the true church of Christ? Were they all Catholic? How about people from other religions that have lived since then?

When I say the the gospel was preached to every creature during the times of the Apostles, I am not making it up!

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Col 1:23

 

[paul_c]

Paul,
Jesus’ main mission was to atone for the sins of mankind, die, be resurrected and resurrect mankind. But he also created the universe, he was the God of the Old Testament, he left the legacy of the New Testament. He established his church and his gospel, he restored his church again prior do his second coming. He is also in control of Hades, or spirit world, which is right here on the earth (spiritual earth).So… Christ is in control of everything!

This is a very different view of Jesus and God than most Christians understand. God the father was the creator of all things. Jesus, the second person in the trinity is the redeemer, it is true and yes, he established the catholic chruch and told us he would be with us until the end of the Age. We recognize Hades or Hell as the place reserved for those that fail to follow the commandments and chose self over God. And it is not on Earth. Jesus will be the judge of all mankind.

You complain about the 1800 years of apostasy, but you forget two things. First, there have been periods of apostasy during the times of Israel. For example, from Malachi to Jesus 500 years passed without prophets, prophecies or new scriptures among the Israelites.

Well, this is not true. The book of Sirach was written between 200 and 175 bc. 1,2 Maccabees was written about 100BC . and Daniel was written between 167-164 BC.

Second, how many people have lived on this earth without hearing the gospel of Christ? Even if we consider the Catholic Church to be the true church, how much has it penetrated in the world during the last 1800 years? How many people never embraced Jesus Christ? Just today alone, the population of the world exceeds7 billion people on the earth. How many of them have accepted Christ and practice his teachings? The Catholic Church does not even hold 1 billion members? That is not even 15%. How about the billions that have died without knowing Christ? That amounts to several other billions. Just China and India alone accounts for over 2 billion people that are alive today and most of them are not even Christian.

Do you realize that despite the persecutions, Catholics represtented 1/3 of the entire population of the Roman empire by the time that it became legal in 313AD.   The Catholic population in the world is 1.2 Billion, roughly 18% of the worlds population and it has a  presence in every country on Earth..  There are very few people on earth that have not heard of Jesus.  As for India, Mother Teresa was at work there.  They most certainly have heard of Jesus.  The fact that almost 20% of the people on the earth are Catholic certainly militates against any general apostasy.

Now, the answer is …preaching the gospel to the dead and baptizing them! If they have not heard of the gospel of Christ when alive, they will hear when they die! That tells me that God is fair and just! If you don’t consider salvation for the dead, we all should conclude that God s unjust!

Well, we know that Jesus preached to the dead when he was crucified and before he was resurrected. But after that he commissioned the church to spread the word. If someone truly hasn’t heard the word of God, we beleive they can still be saved by following the natural law, which calls on all men to love. But if they have heard , and choose to ignore it, they are culpable for their decision.

The mission of the LDS Church is threefold…Proclaim the Gospel, Redeem the Dead and Perfect the Saints…that is global and universal! The gospel of Christ extends beyond the grave!

We believe that the purpose of life is for a person to choose between heaven and hell by his actions. Judgement occurs immediately after death.

 

[ricko]

Ricko,

How many people have lived since the death of the apostles? Were they baptized in the true church of Christ? Were they all Catholic? How about people from other religions that have lived since then?

When I say the the gospel was preached to every creature during the times of the Apostles, I am not making it up!

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Col 1:23

A little reasoning does well here. We know the gospel could not have been preached to everyone at the time of that writing. It still hasn’t been preached to everyone 2,000 years later. There is another meaning to that passage but my computer isn’t feeling well tonite.

You don’t believe the gospel has been preached to everyone either, or you should be careful about making conflicting statements.

 

[ricko]

“It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). There are no “second chances” after death.

God gives his light to all people (John 1:9), and the universe itself gives evidence of God (Ps. 19:1-4), evidence which is sufficient to establish basic moral accountability (Rom. 1:18-21). For those who are ignorant by no fault of their own, God will not hold their ignorance against them; but it is wrong to assume that people have no light from God unless they hear an oral proclamation of the gospel.

The LDS church is not guided by the Holy Spirit and so it has conflicting teachings. The current teachings of baptism for the dead conflict with the BOM…

In Alma 34:35-36 we read: “For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”

2 Nephi 9:15: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire,

 

[Xavierlives]

JMJ4,

The booklet you are quoting from is just the “mik” as you stated before. Missionaries just want to talk about the basics and help you and your family receive a testimony through the Holly Ghost. Missionaries are advised not to engage in arguments. They are there to testify of the Restoration and helpt people feel the spirit and a testimony. That is their main goal. Of course they are allowed to show scritpures up to a point, but if the “investigator” seems to be combative and not really trying to understand, then they may even stop seeing you depending on the circumstances. The true conversion is through the spirit and not mainly by “argumentation”. It is a different setting than the one we have here.

My Mormon visitors have been back numerous times. 4 or 5. 5 or 6. I’ve lost count. I think they just come back because I bake them cookies every time.

If you go to lds.org or momon.com, you will see good explanantions, but it will not address each point in an exhaustive and profound way. It makes sense to give “milk” first and then “meat” like the apostle said. We have evidence from the fathers stating this point…“that the apostles knew everything, but did not teach all they knew in public.”

During my conversion I was ready for “meat” and did the investigation on my own by using other books.

But the point of the “apostles being killed” does not invalidate the Mormon claim, because the apostasy did not accur only because the apostles got killed. In reality, the Apostle being killed is a consequence of the apostasy…the apostle could have ordained other apostle an always replace the one that got killed, but that was not the Lord’s purpose. The gospel was already preached to every creature on the earth and that was the end of the dispensation of the Meridian of Times. John being alive and keeping the keys does not invalidade the claim of apostasy at all. John did not pass the key on to anyone until 1829 to Joseph Smith along with Peter and James.

This sounds like back peddling. Before it was, loss of authority when the apostles died, but not a total apostacy until at least 400 AD when the the books were canonized. Now it is apostacy before the apostles died.

The Mormon Church does not want to state in a basic literature that John never died because that is unecessary at that point and would cause more unecessary questions. John’s mission was no longer to be part of the Church…he was removed from it. His mission was something else.

Of course they don’t, now, because they are stuck in a pickle. He has to be dead or the Mormon stance does not work, but the church already said he didn’t die. Ooops!

Remember that Satan was given power to defeat and overcome all Saints. The Lord and the apostles knew about the apostasy well in advance.

Really? I missed that part. Could you quoting some scripture? I’d like to study that more intently.

 

[Xavierlives]

evanfaust;6299923:

evanfaust - YOU can say that John never died and was “translated” but the LDS literature teaches that the apostles were killed. No mention of John as an exception.

Wait. So do the Mormons teach this or not? Is this just a Evan theory?

 

[evanfaust]

This is a very different view of Jesus and God than most Christians understand. God the father was the creator of all things. Jesus, the second person in the trinity is the redeemer, it is true and yes, he established the catholic chruch and told us he would be with us until the end of the Age. We recognize Hades or Hell as the place reserved for those that fail to follow the commandments and chose self over God. And it is not on Earth. Jesus will be the judge of all mankind…

The scriptures below are referring to Jesus Christ as the Creator.

And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.Heb 1:2

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:16

Jesus established a Church, but never called that church as “catholic.” Besides the Catholic Church resembles very little the church Jesus organized. Catholics created this link between the church of Jesus Christ and the Catholic church. The doctrines are different and the organization is different.

The scriptures uses different terms like Hades, Sheol, etc, but they are referring to the spirit world, which has two main division aradise and prison. Before Christ death there was no bridge between these two separation. Christ demolished the gates of hell and established a link between “prison” and “paradise”. That separation is the ilustrated in the story of rich man and Lazarus, Luke 16:26. But, in 1 Peter 3:18-20 and I Peter 4:6 we see evidence of the preaching of the gospel in the spirit world. But, the spirit world, which has different levels is in heart of the earth. “so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Mat 12:40

 

[evanfaust]

Well, this is not true. The book of Sirach was written between 200 and 175 bc. 1,2 Maccabees was written about 100BC . and Daniel was written between 167-164 BC. …

Paul,
I don’t know where you got the date for the book of Daniel, but according to this site Daniel was written around 640 BC.

mediahistory.umn.edu/archive/biblicalDates.html

The book of Syrach and Maccabees are considered apocrypha by many groups. These two books were not written by prophets.

The Book of Sirach, or the Wisdom of Jesus the son of Sirach, is a book in the Apocrypha. It is also known as Ecclesiasticus (“church book”) because of its wide use among Greek and Latin Christians in moral instruction. Classified among the wisdom writings, the book was written in Hebrew at Jerusalem c. 180 BC by a learned teacher, Jesus ben Sirach, and was translated into Greek in Egypt with a preface by his grandson not long after 132 BC.

The first book of Maccabees is a book written by a Jewish author after the restoration of an independent Jewish kingdom, probably about 100 BC. It is held as Deuterocanonical scripture by both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Protestantism and modern-day Judaism holds it an apocryphal book.

Do you realize that despite the persecutions, Catholics represtented 1/3 of the entire population of the Roman empire by the time that it became legal in 313AD. The Catholic population in the world is 1.2 Billion, roughly 18% of the worlds population and it has a presence in every country on Earth… There are very few people on earth that have not heard of Jesus. As for India, Mother Teresa was at work there. They most certainly have heard of Jesus. The fact that almost 20% of the people on the earth are Catholic certainly militates against any general apostasy…

Paul,
Even if we consider your numbers, they are still very small compared to the population of the world. So, my argument still holds…Catholics still cannot penetrate in every home…in reality you still need to catch up with 80% of the population using your most optimistic figures. We still have to explain what is going to happen to those billions who never heard of Catholicism that already died. Will they go to hell? Are they lost forever? The LDS explanation is a lot more comfortable and makes more sense, which is the redemption of the dead, something that even the early fathers believed.

Well, we know that Jesus preached to the dead when he was crucified and before he was resurrected. But after that he commissioned the church to spread the word. If someone truly hasn’t heard the word of God, we beleive they can still be saved by following the natural law, which calls on all men to love. But if they have heard , and choose to ignore it, they are culpable for their decision…

Paul,
The gospel is being preached in the spirit world to the dead and they need the ordinances like baptism. Many billions died without baptism! The Catholic church does not perform any ordinances to the dead!

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6

We believe that the purpose of life is for a person to choose between heaven and hell by his actions. Judgement occurs immediately after death.

Partial judgement…we will continue to live after death and will be responsible for our actions before the resurrection,

 

[evanfaust]

JMJ4;6300364:

Wait. So do the Mormons teach this or not? Is this just a Evan theory?

Xavier,
You asked and I responded on post # 1200, D & C 7. I think you missed it. It is LDS official belief.

 

[evanfaust]

“It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). There are no “second chances” after death.

God gives his light to all people (John 1:9), and the universe itself gives evidence of God (Ps. 19:1-4), evidence which is sufficient to establish basic moral accountability (Rom. 1:18-21). For those who are ignorant by no fault of their own, God will not hold their ignorance against them; but it is wrong to assume that people have no light from God unless they hear an oral proclamation of the gospel.

The LDS church is not guided by the Holy Spirit and so it has conflicting teachings. The current teachings of baptism for the dead conflict with the BOM…

In Alma 34:35-36 we read: “For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked.”

2 Nephi 9:15: "And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire,

Ricko,
Nobody said anything about second chance. We are talking about those that never had the oportunity to hear the gospel and those are many!

In fact if you carefully read 1 Peter 3:18-20, it mentions that the gospel was preached to those who were disobedient during the preaching of Noah. Maybe those spirits did not have a chance to hear Noah preach. It is up to God to decides who had the chance and who did not.

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The scriptures of the BOM you are quoting from refer to people who were procrastinating their repentance; which clearly implies that they knew the gospel, but chose not to practice it. You are comparing apples with oranges. There is a big difference. For those people who have the knowledge of the gospel and chose to do evil, they will be punished and may lose their chance of salvation!

 

[evanfaust]

Really? I missed that part. Could you quoting some scripture? I’d like to study that more intently.

Xavier,
I have quoted those scriptures here before, but I will be glad to do it again.

Rev 13:7-8
Daniel 7:21-21-25

 

[evanfaust]

A little reasoning does well here. We know the gospel could not have been preached to everyone at the time of that writing. It still hasn’t been preached to everyone 2,000 years later. There is another meaning to that passage but my computer isn’t feeling well tonite.

You don’t believe the gospel has been preached to everyone either, or you should be careful about making conflicting statements.

Ricko,

Then you have some explaining to do, because that is in the Bible!

 

[mfbukowski]

Paul C,

I am aware of those statements, but these are not all canonical pronouncements. A Prophet is a Prophet only when acting as such. Not every word from a Prophet is considered scriptures. Journal of Discourses is not recognized as an authoritative source. Prophets and Apostles may give their opinion and may speculate as any of us do. The Apostle Paul is an example of that. He stated his opinion too and is clearly recorded in the Bible!

Mormons do not accept all the statements above as official doctrine. Adam is Michael the Archangel, but he is not Elohim our Heavenly Father. We do not have a definitive revelation saying that God was once a man as we are, but we can infer that based on the doctrine stated in Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34 that we are gods. The statement about Mary is also Brigham Young’s opnion, which is not shared by the oficial cannon of the Church.

Just for the record, I want to confirm that evan is exactly correct; this is the standard Mormon position. Mary conceived as is stated in the bible.

 

[Xavierlives]

JMJ4;6300364:

Wait. So do the Mormons teach this or not? Is this just a Evan theory?

Well, it was more of trying to get clarification. I was under the impression that the History was not a doctrine setting document, so I wasn’t sure if the LDS embraced this idea or whether it was just looked upon as quaint thought.

This seems to be one of the gray areas of Mormonism, because you can disclaim BY (like the previous post) and say, JS’s statements about John are correct.

I find this system to be a bowl full of mix nuts. You can pick out what you want and leave the rest for someone else.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavier,
I have quoted those scriptures here before, but I will be glad to do it again.

Rev 13:7-8
Daniel 7:21-21-25

Hmm… this thread is going to be closed soon and I am not sure we can do justice to the Mormon church and Satan so I am going to Start a new thread.

It can be found here :

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6304473#post6304473

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavier,
You asked and I responded on post # 1200, D & C 7. I think you missed it. It is LDS official belief.

Well, it was more of trying to get clarification. I was under the impression that the History was not a doctrine setting document, so I wasn’t sure if the LDS embraced this idea or whether it was just looked upon as quaint thought.

This seems to be one of the gray areas of Mormonism, because you can disclaim BY (like the previous post) and say, JS’s statements about John are correct.

I find this system to be a bowl full of mix nuts. You can pick out what you want and leave the rest for someone else.

 

[Xavierlives]

Paul,
I don’t know where you got the date for the book of Daniel, but according to this site Daniel was written around 640 BC.

mediahistory.umn.edu/archive/biblicalDates.html

The book of Syrach and Maccabees are considered apocrypha by many groups. These two books were not written by prophets.

The Book of Sirach, or the Wisdom of Jesus the son of Sirach, is a book in the Apocrypha. It is also known as Ecclesiasticus (“church book”) because of its wide use among Greek and Latin Christians in moral instruction. Classified among the wisdom writings, the book was written in Hebrew at Jerusalem c. 180 BC by a learned teacher, Jesus ben Sirach, and was translated into Greek in Egypt with a preface by his grandson not long after 132 BC.

The first book of Maccabees is a book written by a Jewish author after the restoration of an independent Jewish kingdom, probably about 100 BC. It is held as Deuterocanonical scripture by both the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Protestantism and modern-day Judaism holds it an apocryphal book.

Paul,
Even if we consider your numbers, they are still very small compared to the population of the world. So, my argument still holds…Catholics still cannot penetrate in every home…in reality you still need to catch up with 80% of the population using your most optimistic figures. We still have to explain what is going to happen to those billions who never heard of Catholicism that already died. Will they go to hell? Are they lost forever? The LDS explanation is a lot more comfortable and makes more sense, which is the redemption of the dead, something that even the early fathers believed.

Paul,
The gospel is being preached in the spirit world to the dead and they need the ordinances like baptism. Many billions died without baptism! The Catholic church does not perform any ordinances to the dead!

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:18-20

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Peter 4:6

Partial judgement…we will continue to live after death and will be responsible for our actions before the resurrection,

I thought I was keeping up with your discussion too, but it is appears I have missed some key point. Why are we saying the Bible has or has not been preached everywhere? fulfillment of prophecy?