LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[Javl]

Paul,
Well, the Jewish also can trace their history back to Abraham, and yet the Lord bypassed them when he established his Church with 12 apostles. They don’t have prophets anymore; they just use their old scriptures. Why would not God bypass the Catholics too, since his church apostatized? A historical continuation does not guarantee that God has always been with that organization. That is called apostasy! The power of it is removed and those who continue in that organization think that they are the still alive; when in reality they are dead!

As far as the cannon of scripture, that has been modified! Study the history of the cannon of scripture and you will see.

You are in error. The Jews were not bypassed by God when He established His Church. The Jews rejected Him, not the other way around. Also how can it be apostacy if the same truths are taught today by the Christian Church that were taught by Christ and His Apostles 2000 years ago, and without change? Jesus said that He will ALWAYS be with His Church and that it cannot change or be destroyed since He and the Holy Spirit will protect and guide it.

Christianity today is exactly the same as it was about 2000 years ago, Joseph Smith and the LDS church not withstanding. If you wish to follow Joseph Smith, the LDS church, and all the teachings, then that is your perogative. But, you will miss the beauty and glory of the Truth in the Church as founded by Christ. You and all LDS are in my prayers.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[paul_c]

Paul,
Well, the Jewish also can trace their history back to Abraham, and yet the Lord bypassed them when he established his Church with 12 apostles. They don’t have prophets anymore; they just use their old scriptures. Why would not God bypass the Catholics too, since his church apostatized? A historical continuation does not guarantee that God has always been with that organization. That is called apostasy! The power of it is removed and those who continue in that organization think that they are the still alive; when in reality they are dead!

As far as the cannon of scripture, that has been modified! Study the history of the cannon of scripture and you will see.

Evan, all of the 12 Apostles WERE Jewish, so how can you say the Lord bypassed them when he established his church? It wasn’t until Peter met with Cornelius that any Gentiles were baptized into the faith. There were many, many Jewish people who became Catholic Christians. The ones we still know as Jews were not bypassed, they rejected the new covenant of their own will.

What applies to the Jews who were not converted doesn’t apply to the Catholic Church. How does historical continuation equal apostasy? Deviation equals apostasy. Continuation equals orthodoxy and has always been the check to see if you are with God.

It is laughable that you claim that the power of the Catholic Church has been removed. It is far more powerful than the Mormon Church, by any measure. Its 100X bigger in terms of people and more than that in influence. If you are talking about spiritual gifts, who do the Mormons have to compare to 20th century figures like Mother Teresa or John Paul II or Padre Pio? What events do you have to compare to Lourdes or Fatima? How about historical figures like St. Francis of Assissi of St. Augustine or Therese of Liseux or Thomas Aquinas?

As for the Catholic Canon, it has been unchanged since it was established in 382AD. Yours on the other hand were updated as recently as 1981, when declaration 2 allowed Blacks to attain to the priesthood.

 

[Xavierlives]

As someone who is both Jewish and Christian, this comment makes utterly no sense to me. The apostles were Jewish. God did not bypass the Jews when he established Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. The early church was made up of Jews.

I am so glad you are a part of our conversation.

 

[Xavierlives]

Evan, all of the 12 Apostles WERE Jewish, so how can you say the Lord bypassed them when he established his church? It wasn’t until Peter met with Cornelius that any Gentiles were baptized into the faith. There were many, many Jewish people who became Catholic Christians. The ones we still know as Jews were not bypassed, they rejected the new covenant of their own will.

What applies to the Jews who were not converted doesn’t apply to the Catholic Church. How does historical continuation equal apostasy? Deviation equals apostasy. Continuation equals orthodoxy and has always been the check to see if you are with God.

It is laughable that you claim that the power of the Catholic Church has been removed. It is far more powerful than the Mormon Church, by any measure. Its 100X bigger in terms of people and more than that in influence. If you are talking about spiritual gifts, who do the Mormons have to compare to 20th century figures like Mother Teresa or John Paul II or Padre Pio? What events do you have to compare to Lourdes or Fatima? How about historical figures like St. Francis of Assissi of St. Augustine or Therese of Liseux or Thomas Aquinas?

As for the Catholic Canon, it has been unchanged since it was established in 382AD. Yours on the other hand were updated as recently as 1981, when declaration 2 allowed Blacks to attain to the priesthood.

• And it was “translated” with 3800 textual, spelling and gramatical errors. I still don’t understand how that could happen. It was almost as if it were written by a person without an understanding of the language.

 

[sablouwho]

I am so glad you are a part of our conversation.

Awwww…thank you, that’s a kind thing to say. :hug1:

 

[Cursilista]

Evan,

The issue of Peters Primacy has to be taken with the context of the whole story. Remember Jesus was asking the apostles who is it that the people say I am. then He asked the apostles the same question. Only Peter had the correct answer. Jesus recognized that his father gave Peter that revelation. Jesus then named Simon Peter and was speaking directly to him when he said that Upon this rock I will build my church and gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Speaking directly to peter he said what you deem on earth I will deem in heaven. Basically, Jesus was here to teach and left the organization of his church to Peter and the apostles.

If you read the whole passage, you will see what was going on. Jesus was talking to all the apostles, then focused on Peter. His words were directed at Peter.

2nd Apostolic succession does not mean that because John was the last living apostle, he was to be the last leader of the church. Others were with the apostles, disciples, and they were taught by the apostles to carry on after the apostles were gone. These were the ones who carried on the teachings of the church. John was imprisoned and not really in a posistion to carry out the duties of the bishop of the church. Either way, we have always had holy men, saints, who werent always made bishops or the pope.

 

[evanfaust]

As someone who is both Jewish and Christian, this comment makes utterly no sense to me. The apostles were Jewish. God did not bypass the Jews when he established Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. The early church was made up of Jews.

Sablouwho,
Jesus did not endorse any of the existing Jewish factions. He started fresh and anew, calling fisherman to be apostles. He did not call the doctors of the law or any of the Sadducees or Pharisees. So, he bypassed them!

 

[evanfaust]

It is laughable that you claim that the power of the Catholic Church has been removed. It is far more powerful than the Mormon Church, by any measure. Its 100X bigger in terms of people and more than that in influence.

Paul,

I am talking about authority, gifts, Holly Ghost, angels, celestial messengers visiting, revelation, prophets, apostles…the presence of the father and the son, etc. The Catholic church is financialy powerfull, has more numbers than any other Christian faith, but that is not what I refer to.

 

[sablouwho]

Sablouwho,
Jesus did not endorse any of the existing Jewish factions. He started fresh and anew,

Um, minor detail, but Jesus was Jewish. So regardless of his not endorsing a specific group and, as you say, starting “fresh and anew” (a curious way to put it, and as a completed Jew myself, I do *not * view it this way at all), he started with Jewish raw materials.

calling fisherman to be apostles.

Jewish fisherman.

He did not call the doctors of the law or any of the Sadducees or Pharisees. So, he bypassed them!

Paul was a Pharisee, Evan. Jewish, and a Pharisee.

To say that JC bypassed the Jews…it’s not only factually incorrect…but…

…I’m sorry, these comments sound incredibly…

…I can’t even use the word because it is a very serious word to use, and I do not use it lightly. I never in a million years thought I’d ever consider using it to describe a Mormon, of all people, as my firsthand experience with LDS has taught me that they’re very philo-semetic. But in this case I am not only saddened, I am truly stunned.

 

[sablouwho]

A historical continuation does not guarantee that God has always been with that organization.

Yet miraculously, and despite all odds, Jews still exist. But using the queer logic above, that’s just a fluke and God had nothing to do with it, since he “bypassed” the Jews a long time ago?

I think I am going to be, literally, physically ill. :stretcher:

 

[paul_c]

Paul,

I am talking about authority, gifts, Holly Ghost, angels, celestial messengers visiting, revelation, prophets, apostles…the presence of the father and the son, etc. The Catholic church is financialy powerfull, has more numbers than any other Christian faith, but that is not what I refer to.

I talked about that too in the same sentence you quoted. :

:It is laughable that you claim that the power of the Catholic Church has been removed. It is far more powerful than the Mormon Church, by any measure. Its 100X bigger in terms of people and more than that in influence. If you are talking about spiritual gifts, who do the Mormons have to compare to 20th century figures like Mother Teresa or John Paul II or Padre Pio? What events do you have to compare to Lourdes or Fatima? How about historical figures like St. Francis of Assissi of St. Augustine or Therese of Liseux or Thomas Aquinas?

Why didn’t you address the rest? What spiritual gifts do you have to compare with those bestowed on the Catholic Church? all the gifts you have to claim were merely unproven statements by Joseph Smith and his successors. What is their credibility?

 

[zerinus]

Just a clarification: The Mormon position on the Apostasy is not that the Catholic Church apostatized, even though that of course is how it looks from the Catholic perspective, since Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ. I’m sure that an Eastern Orthodox would say that the Mormon position is that the Orthodox Church apostatized.

However the Mormon position is that the original church of Jesus Christ apostatized, and evolved into what became the Catholic Church/Orthodox Church.

And it isn’t really that Joseph Smith was sent to reform the Church, since that implies that he was reforming something that was still there (a la Luther). Instead, they believe that God restored the original church through Smith and others.

Mormonism goes further than that. Although it teaches the apostasy of the original Church, it does not mean that the church that emerged at the end of it (Catholic or Orthodox) became evil, wicked, or “church of the devil” etc.—which is the kind of rhetoric that has been coming out of Protestantism. It lost its priesthood authority; but it did not lose its ability to do good in the world, or to generate saving faith in Christ.

 

[sablouwho]

Although [LDS] teaches the apostasy of the original Church, it does not mean that the church that emerged at the end of it (Catholic or Orthodox) became evil, wicked, or “church of the devil” etc.—which is the kind of rhetoric that has been coming out of Protestantism. It lost its priesthood authority; but it did not lose its ability to do good in the world, or to generate saving faith in Christ.

One thing I appreciate about most LDS I know, Zerinus, is that they can see the good in Christian organizations even though they believe in the GA.

However, I do find one thing in the LDS traditions that does remind me of the Protestant rhetoric you mention above…that is, the passages in the BoM that refer to the “great and abominable church.” When I asked my missies about this they explained it didn’t refer to the CC (and at the time I wasn’t Catholic), but honestly, when I read it, it is hard not to immediately be reminded of the Protestant rhetoric.

Given the historical backdrop of what was going on at the time the BoM came into being, it is a little hard for me to ignore the similarities and dismiss them as a coincidence.

 

[zerinus]

One thing I appreciate about most LDS I know, Zerinus, is that they can see the good in Christian organizations even though they believe in the GA.

However, I do find one thing in the LDS traditions that does remind me of the Protestant rhetoric you mention above…that is, the passages in the BoM that refer to the “great and abominable church.” When I asked my missies about this they explained it didn’t refer to the CC (and at the time I wasn’t Catholic), but honestly, when I read it, it is hard not to immediately be reminded of the Protestant rhetoric.

Given the historical backdrop of what was going on at the time the BoM came into being, it is a little hard for me to ignore the similarities and dismiss them as a coincidence.

Then you are mistaken. A thorough acquaintance with the theology of the Book of Mormon would convince you that your assumptions are unfounded. Your “missies” were right. That verse has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

 

[Javl]

Paul,

I am talking about authority, gifts, Holly Ghost, angels, celestial messengers visiting, revelation, prophets, apostles…the presence of the father and the son, etc. The Catholic church is financialy powerfull, has more numbers than any other Christian faith, but that is not what I refer to.

The Catholic Church has authority direct from God ( Mt 16:19 ) and has the Holy Spirit as its guide. It does not have angels, celestial messengers visiting, prophets or apostles. These are personages made up by and for the LDS alone. There is private revelation, myriads of miracles ( gifts ) performed by God through the Saints within the Catholic Church (Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, etc. ) and, most of all, the everlasting presence of Mary, Jesus Mother, all of which proves that it has the presence of God ( Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ) constantly to guide and protect it. If this were not so, the Catholic Church would not be as large as it is, present in every nation and encompassing the world.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[sablouwho]

Then you are mistaken. A thorough acquaintance with the theology of the Book of Mormon would convince you that your assumptions are unfounded. Your “missies” were right. That verse has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

Actually, I know some current LDS (with temple recommends) who disagree with your statement, and they themselves are thoroughly acquainted with the theology of the BoM.

But I am open to hearing how you see things here. Instead of “making me wrong”, why not try and educate me? Seriously, I am saying this in earnest. I know you may not believe me because you didn’t seem to like my references to logic that I made last week and I think you took it personally when I didn’t mean it that way…but I’m quite serious.

Such an LDS explanation would no doubt also benefit the lurkers who are reading this who may think the BoM makes anti-Catholic statements.

 

[zerinus]

Actually, I know some current LDS (with temple recommends) who disagree with your statement, and they themselves are thoroughly acquainted with the theology of the BoM.

But I am open to hearing how you see things here. Instead of “making me wrong”, why not try and educate me? Seriously, I am saying this in earnest. I know you may not believe me because you didn’t seem to like my references to logic that I made last week and I think you took it personally when I didn’t mean it that way…but I’m quite serious.

Such an LDS explanation would no doubt also benefit the lurkers who are reading this who may think the BoM makes anti-Catholic statements.

Have a look at this article. To get a good understanding you should look up all the scripture references given, which you can easily do by just clicking them. That should answer your questions.

 

[Xavierlives]

Yet miraculously, and despite all odds, Jews still exist. But using the queer logic above, that’s just a fluke and God had nothing to do with it, since he “bypassed” the Jews a long time ago?

I think I am going to be, literally, physically ill. :stretcher:

I think an important note should be made that many Christians hold, which is, we believe Israel still has a covenant with God. The problem is, the Jews are not upholding their end. I think he is blessing them, just at 1/10th of what it could be. If they would turn and see God, he would open the floodgates.

 

[sablouwho]

I think an important note should be made that many Christians hold, which is, we believe Israel still has a covenant with God.

Right. Well, some Christians believe that. Others believe in Replacement Theology.

The problem is, the Jews are not upholding their end. I think he is blessing them, just at 1/10th of what it could be. If they would turn and see God, he would open the floodgates.

Perhaps you could address how you understand that, while treating the issue very carefully? I admit, I’m sensitive on this issue! The dual identity thing can be a doozie!

 

[Xavierlives]

Have a look at this article. To get a good understanding you should look up all the scripture references given, which you can easily do by just clicking them. That should answer your questions.

Like John, Nephi and Jacob describe persecutions that evil people will inflict on God’s people, particularly in the last days. The angel who explained the vision to Nephi emphasized that this great and abominable church would take away from the Bible and “the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord” (1 Ne. 13:26), causing men to “stumble” and giving Satan “great power” over them (1 Ne. 13:29; D&C 86:3; Robinson, “Early Christianity,” p. 188).

I really like how he puts Nephi and Jacob after John. Nothing like a little perspective on when things were written.

Though many Protestants, following the lead of Martin Luther, have linked this evil force described in Revelation 17 with the Roman Catholic church,

LOL… The Mormon church following a play from the Jack Chick playbook! That is a riot!