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Xavierlives
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Maybe I shouldn’t tonight. I mean we hugged just yesterday.
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sablouwho
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Oh, thank you, what a laugh I just had!Maybe I shouldn’t tonight. I mean we hugged just yesterday.
I am curious for your perspective on the issue, though, perhaps it might be better to keep it separate from this thread since:
- the thread is apparently risking being closed at any moment (not sure why but that is what others have said, I guess because there are so many posts?)
- it is way way Off Topic
Let me know what you think!
Or we could forgo the whole thing and just keep hugging!
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Xavierlives
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We can start a new thread. But we will have to keep our emoticons in check (everyone will be invited to our party).Oh, thank you, what a laugh I just had!
I am curious for your perspective on the issue, though, perhaps it might be better to keep it separate from this thread since:
Perhaps PM or starting a new thread would be the best solution?
- the thread is apparently risking being closed at any moment (not sure why but that is what others have said, I guess because there are so many posts?)
- it is way way Off Topic
Let me know what you think!
Or we could forgo the whole thing and just keep hugging!
Here is the thread:
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Xavierlives
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See, the problem I have with this theory of yours is, if we are apostate (we being the non-Mormons), then God should be… well… ignoring us. If we are not doing right in his sight then he would not bless us. We would be absent of the Holy Spirit. We would not see revelations. But we do. If the Mormon church would open up the blinders they might might actually see the Holy Spirit outside their walls. But the Mormon church has to be hardline on their stance. The problem is, they are interested in maintaining the status quo. The have almost an equal number of converts as reverts and if they don’t keep up the pace, well, they are going to see a dip in numbers. If they said things like, The Holy Spirit is in other denominations then there would be a mass exodus.
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sablouwho
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Indeed, the HS doesn’t seem to be “owned” by ANY one organization who affirms His existence. There is no monopoly.
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Answersplease
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Answersplease
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evanfaust
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Sablouwho,’Um, minor detail, but Jesus was Jewish. So regardless of his not endorsing a specific group and, as you say, starting “fresh and anew” (a curious way to put it, and as a completed Jew myself, I do *not * view it this way at all), he started with Jewish raw materials.
Jewish fisherman.
Paul was a Pharisee, Evan. Jewish, and a Pharisee.
To say that JC bypassed the Jews…it’s not only factually incorrect…but…
…I’m sorry, these comments sound incredibly…
…I can’t even use the word because it is a very serious word to use, and I do not use it lightly. I never in a million years thought I’d ever consider using it to describe a Mormon, of all people, as my firsthand experience with LDS has taught me that they’re very philo-semetic. But in this case I am not only saddened, I am truly stunned.
I don’t think I made myself clear. Jesus did not build up his church on any existing faction. He started and built his church on his own…and did not ammended any of the sects or faction of the Jewish faith. I am making a paralell to the restoration, Jesus and Heavenly father did not build up or reformed any existing religion during the time of Joseph Smith, Jesus restored what was lost…the organization the established when lived on the earth and he called a farmer boy as the instrument of this restoration. Jesus did not build up his church from the catholics or any protestant faith. He independently restored his church, as he setup his church independently when he was on the earth. He bypassed any established group or faction of religion. That is the point I am trying to get across. Of course Jesus was Jewish and he called Jewish to be part of the church, the church was composed of Israelites. Only after the resurrection he commanded the gospel to be preached to the gentiles. Of couse I know Paul was a Pharisee, but he was converted. I think you misunderstood what I said. I apologize if came across in any other way.
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zach_dunn
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I believe the specific literature you received is incorrect:
Doctrines and Covenants 7
3 Nephi 28:6
Sorry if this has been cleared up already, but this is what the lds church believes.
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evanfaust
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Sablouwho,
Again, I think you took it the wrong way, I meant to say: “bypassed or ignored” the existing Jewish factions. I want you to know for the record that I do have the highest admiration and respect for Jewish people! I even admire the way you comment on this topic, but I guess I did not express myself well. My only point was to trace a paralell between the existing religions during the time of Joseph and the existing religions during the time of Christ. That is it! Nothing else! I meant no offense to any religion or any group whatosoever!
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sablouwho
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I agree w/you that he didn’t amend any official factions of Judaism. Where I differ is that I don’t see him doing stuff “outside” of Judaism. I see the Jewish Messiah coming to the Jews, and some of them (mainly those outside of the established factions) accept him and others (the factions) don’t.
I think that this is where our viewpoints begin to diverge. I do grasp the parallel you are drawing, I just see it differently because, in my view, since the Jews weren’t bypassed, the analogy to the Restoration doesn’t quite square.
Ok, I’m calming down. The language of the Jews being “bypassed” really had me concerned. (I’ve met Christians who were pretty ignorant and who didn’t realize that Jesus and the apostles were Jewish, and I am NOT kidding you on this! I was worried that you might have been in that mindset.)
I think I did indeed misunderstand you. Sorry!
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Xavierlives
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Ah… we are safe for another 100 or so. It is the weekend and Rachel is on a cruise.
:extrahappy: PARTY! :dancing:
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Xavierlives
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Well for a little while wasn’t Christianity viewed as a sect of Judaism? Then everyone recognized the shift to something new.
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paul_c
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Evan,
you will be hardpressed to prove that Joseph Smith “restored” anything. His teachiings are about new revelations that occured to him alone, that can not be traced to any historical teaching. He was clearly an “innovator” not a “restorer”. After all, he introduced a host of new scripture and doctrines that were unknown in apostolic times covering the whole range on man’s understanding of the natures of God and man and the turths about the afterlife. And it wasn’t only new doctrines but repudiation of existing doctrines as well. Even even retranslated the bible, amending it as he saw fit. Joseph Smith might have claimed he was restoring, but he never could show that he was returning to what was understood in Apostolic times. His claim that only he knew what existed at the start of Christianity rings very hollow, given all the archeological finds and the continuity of catholic documented history back to before the end of the Apostolic age.
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sablouwho
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Yes, AFAIK it was indeed a sect of Judaism at the beginning, called The Way, from what I’m told.
I guess now that I think of it, I see Judaism as having “split”. What we know as rabbinic Judaism today appears to have had its beginnings in this time period of Jesus’ time on the earth and the destruction of the temple. And what we know today as Christianity started out as The Way. Of course, this new Jewish sect was doing things radically different, since they were letting in non-Jews
.I’m in an interesting place with this Xavier–I’m trying to get a handle on what it means for me personally to be a Jew who believes in the Jewish Messiah ( whereas most Jews I know today don’t even realize that Jesus really the real deal) and what that means for me as a Jew, and as a Christian and soon to be Catholic.
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evanfaust
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Paul,
As I explained before, I was talking about the Power of God and being a “live chuch” meaning a church that experiences the gifts of the spirit, prophecy, visions, etc. The people you mentioned above are good examples, may God bless them! But, they are not the only ones in the world, they are in a spotlight. There have been and they are many people nowadays in the Mormon church and from other churches that provide good examples of Christians. People don’t need to be in the spotlight or to be recognized to be a great example…I see around me many people who dedicate their lives helping others and giving great example and wisdom. These people are not famous, but God see what they do.
“But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
So that your giving may be in secret; and your Father, who sees in secret, will give you your reward.”
I already gave you an example of the “modern pentecosts” in Kirtland, Ohio, which happened during the dedicatiion of the temple there in 1836. Hundreds of people saw angels, spoke in tongues, had visions, had seen the savior, etc.
In other ocasions some people saw God the father and the savior. Others have seen visions, spoke in tongues, had dreams,etc. The spiritual gifts in the LDS church can be found throughout its history. Many people have seen Joseph Smith transfigure in front of them at least in three ocasions.
I have had many spiritual manifestations myself, people I know have seen angels in the temple, had many visions, etc.
The cannon of scriptures is supposed to be ongoing…just adding! I refer to Books like the Shepperd of Hermas that used to be part of the cannon during a certain period and it is no longer part the Catholic Cannon of scripture. There are other books.
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banarick
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evanfaust
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Sablouwho,
Not a problem! Let’s forget the misunderstanding. I understand that some Christians are ignorant in this matter. I ran into some of those myself.
Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, and he was sent to the house of Israel. The people in the book of Mormon are from the tribe of Ephraim. Joseph Smith was from this tribe too. Mormons in general are also from the tribes of Ephraim or Manasses.
I agree with you assessment above. In a way, Jesus Christ does his thing based on pre-established principles from the Old Testament; prophets, the twelve apostle smbolizing the 12 tribes of Israel, then we have the “Seventies”, which were also in effect during the old testament times. Elijah, a prophet of the old testament being sent to Joseph to give him sealing powers…Moses giving the keys to the gathering of Israel given to Joseph Smith, etc.
Jesus came to the Jews and many of them accepted him, but many others rejected him. The Jewish factions criticized and killed him, but at the individual level many of them understood his message.
It is not clear to me when you say “since the Jews weren’t bypassed, the analogy to the Restoration doesn’t quite square.”? I thought you agreed that Jesus did not ammend any of the factions to deliver his message, but he started his own organization to preach his gospel and the new covenant. Because that is the only meaning I give to “bypassed.”
Remember what Christ said: "“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” Mat 21:43
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Xavierlives
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Well I really admire you. I could be way off base on this one, but I think it is more difficult for a person who goes from Judaism to Christianity than any other religion. I say that because, A Muslim to Christian does not experience the same cross-over (some stories and somewhat shared names). A non-believer to Christian learns everything from scratch. A Jew on the other hand, would likely have a deep understanding of the Bible (to probably a greater depth than some Christians). I think it is very compatible, but I can see how things could be interpreted slightly different.Yes, AFAIK it was indeed a sect of Judaism at the beginning, called The Way, from what I’m told.
I guess now that I think of it, I see Judaism as having “split”. What we know as rabbinic Judaism today appears to have had its beginnings in this time period of Jesus’ time on the earth and the destruction of the temple. And what we know today as Christianity started out as The Way. Of course, this new Jewish sect was doing things radically different, since they were letting in non-Jews
I’m in an interesting place with this Xavier–I’m trying to get a handle on what it means for me personally to be a Jew who believes in the Jewish Messiah ( whereas most Jews I know today don’t even realize that Jesus really the real deal) and what that means for me as a Jew, and as a Christian and soon to be Catholic.
One perspective that I have recently tried is when I read the Old Testament, I first check to see if the scripture relates in any way to Christ. If there is a notation (margin reference in your Bible) I will immediately read the New Testament reference. It does not make for smooth reading but amazing cross reference understanding.
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paul_c
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70,000 people, many of whom were non-believers, witnessed the dancing of the sun at Fatima and it was reported in the secular press. In comparison, you have an undocumented account of 1000 beleivers seeing angels. I tried looking it up on the web, and the only claims of celestial visions were from the Mormon hierarchy who needed such a site to proliferate their religion. Even so, they were chased out of Kirtland within two years. By the way, why is it that most of these Mormon witnesses left the church after seeing such visions? including the 3 witnesses and the 8 witnesses described in the book of Mormon and of course Joseph Smith’s widow.
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