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Xavierlives
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Hold on. These angels in Kirtland were only seen by Mormons?
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sablouwho
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I personally didn’t have a deep understanding of scripture. But I was inoculated, if you will, against belief in Jesus, by learning, mainly thru osmosis, various reasons (which seemed compelling at the time) for why Jews don’t believe in Jesus.
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Xavierlives
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Well there is still something to be admired for not being mired.
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sablouwho
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Thanks. Though I don’t deserve the credit–I believe that it was God working in my life thru the HS, and not so much me, that put it on my heart to ask to be shown the truth.
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evanfaust
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Paul,
Number is not synonim of truthfulnes. The things of God are shown to believers and not to non-believers. God does not satisfy curiosity and does not try to prove anything to non-believers by showing signs or miracles. Faith preceeds the miracles. When Jesus was resurrected he never showed himself up to those who killed him in order to make a point. Remember that Satan also can transform himself as an angel of light. Another point is that these revelations that supposedly involved the catholic church and the Popes did not come to the head of the Catholic church, but to members and non-believers. That is very suspicious!
If you truly want to know what Mormons are all about, you should go to Mormon sources and not anti-mormons or organizations that have an agenda. How about if you start reading the History of the Mormon Church or Doctrine and Covenants. I also recommend a book called “Remembering Joseph”, which is an account of people who knew the propeht, spoke with him, got to know him…read and see what they say about the prophet. You can also read the Biography of Joseph Smith by his own mother.
The History of the Church will tell you about all the persecutions Mormons suffered. They had to move to Ohio, Missoury, Illinois and finally to Utah to survive. You can say all you want on the subject, but the witnesses never denied their testimony nor did Emma Smith. She had a misuderstanding of who would lead the church after Josepht’s death, but that does not invalidade all she went through together with Joseph, she never denied that. These people had to endure very difficult things, if you read the History of the Church you will understand the pressure, the persecution, and the temptations, specially because of all the great visions and revelations they received…some of them could not take it. But as I said, they never denied the visions, the revelations, or denied seen the celestial messengers. If you don’t want to believe, that is up to you. I have not doubt on the matter. It is completely clear to me. I have accepted it, and for me to reject Mormonism is the same as rejecting God and the Holly Ghost. If you are happy being Catholic, then continue in your path…but you are missing a feast.
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Xavierlives
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It is funny that you mention that, because (although it is relevant to the topic of How the first church did not fail) but I have been having a discussion with my Bible study group about the Holy Spirit and how it works in a non-believers life to soften their hearts and then finally finding a place to reside.
I think you are wise to be able to recognize the Holy Spirit moving, especially in this time in your life where you were looking for answers and searching in several churches. I think many people can get caught up in lot of misguided places and your decision to come to Christ really is an inspiration.
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Xavierlives
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Where is the suspicion? Miracles happen everyday. You need to be able to recognize them and glorify God when you see them. I have told of the miracle I have witnessed many times and I will until the day I die. I do so because it shows a truth to God. It shows a truth of faith. It shows a truth of love. There is nothing more captivating to me than such a story. You cannot diminish the story because the entire story is about God. So when a Mormon says, “We are the only way” I need only tell my story. My miracle story rejects thats outright.
Well I have and find it almost more disturbing than the anti-Mormon sites. The truth about Joseph Smith is far scarier than the lies about Joseph Smith.
I’m not sure why Mormons think their history of suffering is so great. I think the History of Slaves in the South to be more of a compelling story of suffering. What did the Mormons do? Raised a militia of thousands to protect themselves. The moved across country to desolate place and started fresh. Southern slaves had to live in hatred and persecution for hundred of years, then when freed, live under segregation for 100 years. Then African-Americans fight a history of poverty and drinking and crime to pull themselves up from having nothing. They feel constant discrimination and disrespect. You don’t know suffering.
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evanfaust
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Xavier,
Miracles do happen everyday! God loves his children and miracles can happen to anyone from any religion. Mormons do not have that exclusivity. Remember that I am responding Paul, who doubted that Mormons have experienced any celestial manifestaion to anyone other than Joseph Smith. On the other hand you should acknowledge that Satan has power to do miracles too and even to transform himself in an angel of light.
I think the scritpure below atest to the fact that Satan also perform many wonders and miracles among the children of God.
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Mat7:23-24
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evanfaust
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Xavier,
You are entitled to your opinion and impression on Mormonism like eveyone else, but that does not change the truth. Many people who read the Bible find it very disturbing too. Some people don’t believe God because of the horrible stories they read in the Bible. Some people even think that Jesus is a liar, a rebel and broke some of the ten commandments. No suprise there my friend!
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evanfaust
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Xavier,
The context of my explanation was related to Paul’s question! I am not comparing suffering here. We should not compare suffering, that is something personal. Different people can stand different degrees of sufferings. Every human being goes through some degree of suffering during mortality. They all contribute to our spiritual growth and spiritual understanding of eternal truths. And you know nothing about me to say whether I had suffering or not.
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paul_c
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Evan,
although the miracles in Mormonism are only in front of believers, that is not the way with the catholic Church, which makes the Catholic ones much more credible. And Jesus’ miracles were very public. He healed extensively in synagogues, where his healing on the sabbath brought complaints from the Pharisees and scribes. He fed 5000 on one occasion, 4000 on another. And why is it suspicious that Catholic Miracles typically are to the lowly instead of the leaders. That makes them all the more credible because the lowly have nothing to gain. When Joseph Smith claimed miracles that no one else saw, it raised credibility questions because he stood to gain by them.
I’ve been reading everything you send my way, but really , do you think Joseph Smith’s mom would really be objective about her son?
Evan, I know the Mormon’s were persecuted in this country but so were the Catholics.
Rejecting Mormonism is the same as rejecting Joseph Smith, on whose testimony everything depends for the Mormon. To a non-Mormon, it is hard to understand why anyone would believe him. We can point out the obvious facts for you. but you are responsible for what you believe and who you follow, as are we…
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evanfaust
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Paul,
The miracle Jesus performed was also in front of the believers. When I say believers I mean someone who believes and not necessarily a member of the organization. Remember that the 5000 and the 4000 fed involved Christ was present. He was the leader of the Church and he was present at the center of the manifestation. Remember that Peter, Paul and other apostles also performed miracles, most of the miracles in the New Testament involve some church leadership.I agree though, that members are also entitled to manifestarion, but when there is a prophecy (for the whole church) involved like the Fatima revelation, that was suposed to be given at the head of the church and not to lowly members. If feels as if “the power” bypassed the leadership of the Catholic church, then the church leadership had to interview and interview…trying to sort if it was true…if it was from God or from the Devil…etc. Do you know what I mean?
If you read the history of the LDS church you will see that miracles do not only happen to the first presidency or twelve apostles. Miracles happen to every level in the church, even till today. I have seen miracles happen in front of me. I have seen people been healed by blessing of a priesthood holder, I have felt powerful manifestation of the spirit, the burning in the bosom as described in the scriptures; others have seen angels, received revelations, etc.
However, if God wants to reveal anything new to the LDS Church He goes through the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles and not through the members. Do you remember when the Lord decided to preach the Gospel to gentiles? Who did the Lord give the revelation to? Was it to the members of the church in a remote area? Of course not, He revealed it to the leader of the church, Peter!
Do you see what I mean? The Early Church of Christ behaved very differently than the Catholic Church when it comes to revelation. First the Popes does not even receive revelation, it is up to the lowly members and then it is analyzed and screened for hoaxes.
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evanfaust
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Paul,
By reading what his mother have to say brings another angle to Joseph Smith stories. It is like having another camera taking other pictures for the same story. Another thing to consider is the honesty of this family. When you read how honesty and God fearing they were it just raises the credibity to another level. Her story adds to the perpective of Joseph Smith, and she was involved with the prophet since he was a baby, she knew his personality, his character and motivations She went through many experiences with him, for example, she tells a story when he went through a leg surgery and almost lost his leg when a child. That alone was a miracle. Lucy Smith, his mom, saw the some of the things that were buried with the book of Mormon and she clealy states that in her book.
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RebeccaJ
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Lucy Mack Smith’s autobiogray was first published in 1853. Brigham Young called it a pack of lies, and declared that any copies that had been purchased should be burned.
Fifty years later the LDS church published her memoirs, heavily edited and missing 14% of the original. Nothing was said in the publication about this edit, what had been changed, left out, or why.
In the 1960’s a comparitive of the original 1853 version and the LDS church version was published by Gerald and Sandra Tanner (utlm.org). (A side by side printing of each.)
If you are using the LDS version of Lucy’s memoirs, you are are basing your assessment of her on an incomplete, and revised story. (LDS church history modifications always leaning towards the “faith promoting”, with actual facts/truth a secondary concern.)
Fifty years later the LDS church published her memoirs, heavily edited and missing 14% of the original. Nothing was said in the publication about this edit, what had been changed, left out, or why.
In the 1960’s a comparitive of the original 1853 version and the LDS church version was published by Gerald and Sandra Tanner (utlm.org). (A side by side printing of each.)
If you are using the LDS version of Lucy’s memoirs, you are are basing your assessment of her on an incomplete, and revised story. (LDS church history modifications always leaning towards the “faith promoting”, with actual facts/truth a secondary concern.)
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Jay53
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Where is there any evidence that this is how God HAS to work that He HAS to follow a specific formula to how He deals with us. And if He doesn’t follow what you (in general) believe He should do, then the event/action/?? is suspect. Blessed Mother was certainly not part of the leadership of the Jewish community, yet God chose her to be Jesus’ mother. She was not the highest person in the “pecking order” of the Jewish community, yet she received the revelation and invitation to be the Mother of God.
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zerinus
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By having people like you guys in it!
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Xavierlives
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How is this scripture proof for Satan doing miracles? It is just saying people will say they are doing things in Christ’s name. I can think of Jehovah Witnesses and SDA as two religions who gave prophecy in Christ’s name and not much happened there. As for casting out demons, Jesus explains that Satan cannot cast out demons under Christ’s authority. Then there is great works. Well the pharisees were know for their ostentatious good works and there are modern day showboaters.
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Xavierlives
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Hmm… so I take it from theBy having people like you guys in it!
that this was in jest. Otherwise, this would be a very uncharitiable statement and that would be unlike you. 
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evanfaust
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Rebecca,
I read both books, the one edited by the Church at the request of Brigham Young and the full version. I think Brigham Young overreaccted, there is not much of a variance between the two versions. Let me paste below another reader’s comments. I got it from amazom.com
"As a faithful LDS member, I have long been troubled by Brigham Young’s attempts to destroy the original copy of this book that Lucy Mack orated, then reviewed, and finally approved. If he claims it had probs, that’s fine, but you don’t rewrite history or rewrite a book that someone else wrote as her own autobiography!
I have tried for a long time to get my hands on an original copy to see what B.Y. had felt was so threatening to the church that he would threaten church members and forced destruction of every copy he could find. This book, FINALLY has been released with not only the church-approved print, but the author has also added in the the stuff that was deleted by B.Y. (and the committee he formed to deal with it), but instead put the deletions in brackets [like this] so you know what was deleted and can skip over them if you want the church authorized version, read them if you want the original version approved by Lucy Mack, or simply notice what was taken out because it was somehow considered threatening or incorrect.
Also, the author has gone the extra mile and included all the extra stuff from the rough draft (there were 3 drafts and a final total) in italics. There are so many other things that you can learn from Lucy’s original Manuscript. Lots of details were removed in the latter drafts (to conserve space, make it flow better, and make it less conversational, as well as details that the editors decided weren’t necessarily significant as well as other reasons I don’t know).
The preface of this book has the full detailed history of the book. It explains every edition it’s been through (I think like 14 editions), the differences, where the copyrights went to, why they were released and by who (not all of them were by the LDS church). It also explains what B.Y. found so upsetting and why. Apparently there were only like 9 mistakes (a couple dates were wrong, and few names were mixed up, but no real big deal, at least nothing worth throwing a fit over and making threats). The preface is amazing, at least find the book and read the preface and you will understand why this book goes on my top 10 LDS books list.
This is the BEST version ever written if you are going to read Lucy Mack’s version of what happened, I would strongly suggest you get this version whether you are LDS or not! Even reprints of the original cost upwards of $200, and this book has both that, and stuff nobody has ever read before from the roughdraft (not to mention everything is separated out so you can tell what goes with which version - Rough Draft, Original, or B.Y. Edited version)!!! "
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Xavierlives
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I’ll tell you what is worth its weight in gold is an 1840 version of BoM (or earlier). Too bad LDS is snatching them up.
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