LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[evanfaust]

Where is there any evidence that this is how God HAS to work that He HAS to follow a specific formula to how He deals with us. And if He doesn’t follow what you (in general) believe He should do, then the event/action/?? is suspect. Blessed Mother was certainly not part of the leadership of the Jewish community, yet God chose her to be Jesus’ mother. She was not the highest person in the “pecking order” of the Jewish community, yet she received the revelation and invitation to be the Mother of God.

Jay53,

Here is another evidence:
“Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7

Being the mother of Jesus is indeed a privilege and she is a blessed woman, but to make her a representative of God to act in the name of God and provide revelation to some girls that will affect the next Popes of the Catholic Church and the whole earth does sound suspicious!

By the way, don’t Catholics believe that all the revelations are in the Bible? Then why new revelation? Why would God send the mother of Jesus to deliver this revelation? Is this revelation going to be part of the cannon of the church?

According to Amos 3;7 above, God call prophets when he wants to reveal new truths. The Pope is not a prophet and he does not claim to receive revelation. Why then, would the Lord send someone with a message?

 

[evanfaust]

How is this scripture proof for Satan doing miracles? It is just saying people will say they are doing things in Christ’s name. I can think of Jehovah Witnesses and SDA as two religions who gave prophecy in Christ’s name and not much happened there. As for casting out demons, Jesus explains that Satan cannot cast out demons under Christ’s authority. Then there is great works. Well the pharisees were know for their ostentatious good works and there are modern day showboaters.

Xavier,
The scripture I quoted is clearly saying that these people tried to do all these things in the name of Christ and Christ does not recognize their authority. Some ministers claim they can to expel spirits or exorcise them, but clearly some of them do not have this authority and the Lord will reject their works.

We also know that the Pharaoh’s magicians performed miracles under Satan’s power.

Exodus 7:11, “Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.”

Evidences that Satan has power to operate miracles…

“And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.” —Revelation 13:14

“*For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, *which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” —Revelation 16:14

 

[zerinus]

Hmm… so I take it from the that this was in jest. Otherwise, this would be a very uncharitiable statement and that would be unlike you.

This has turned out to be a long thread, and I haven’t been able to keep up with all the discussions that have taken place. Tell me what you have learned so far, and what questions still remain in your mind. Are you any nearer to having your original question answered or not? If not, why not?

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,

Here is another evidence:
“Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.” Amos 3:7

Being the mother of Jesus is indeed a privilege and she is a blessed woman, but to make her a representative of God to act in the name of God and provide revelation to some girls that will affect the next Popes of the Catholic Church and the whole earth does sound suspicious!

By the way, don’t Catholics believe that all the revelations are in the Bible? Then why new revelation? Why would God send the mother of Jesus to deliver this revelation? Is this revelation going to be part of the cannon of the church?

According to Amos 3;7 above, God call prophets when he wants to reveal new truths. The Pope is not a prophet and he does not claim to receive revelation. Why then, would the Lord send someone with a message?

No, I’m referring to the first revelation when the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and revealed that she would have a Son. According to your theory, Mary should not have been chosen - it should have been someone higher up in the Jewish “pecking order”.

 

[evanfaust]

No, I’m referring to the first revelation when the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and revealed that she would have a Son. According to your theory, Mary should not have been chosen - it should have been someone higher up in the Jewish “pecking order”.

Jay,
There is no disagreement in choosing Mary to be the mother of Jesus. There is no objection to Gabriel angel appearing to her to announce the birth of Christ. God bless Mary for being the mother of Jesus! She was in fact a special woman to be chosen for this great honor! But, do you see anyone ordaining Mary to the ministry? Was she chosen to be a Bishop, apostle or prophet?

Besides, we are not to worship her! We are supposed to worship God and pray to him. Catholics pray to Mary…and that is worship! That is a violation of the commandments.

You misunderstood my point of view. Some apostles were fisherman, and yet Christ chose them to be apostles. In fact God chooses the weak and humble things of this world to elevate them to a higher status.

 

[sablouwho]

Besides, we are not to worship her! We are supposed to worship God and pray to him. Catholics pray to Mary…and that is worship! That is a violation of the commandments.

You know, I heard that statement a lot when I was a new convert and was hanging with a Protestant crowd. It’s a common statement. I guess that non-Catholics think that they more they repeat this lie, the more believable it will become.

Bottom line is this : **The comments above re: Mary constitute a straw man argument. ** Evan, you’ve stated you used to be Catholic. So, unless you were not properly catechized, I would assume that you would know that your statements seem a little disingenuous.

Mormons don’t like it when their beliefs are mis-characterized. Personally I believe that they are justified in feeling this way. You’ve seen my previous posts–I try hard to take a balanced view and I do not like it when anyone feeds me baloney–and that INCLUDES other Catholics. In this case, I really think your statement is unfair. Please show the Catholic faith the same courtesy by not mis-characterizing what the CC actually teaches/what Catholics actually believe.

Please note that I say this as someone who was NOT very keen on the Mary thing when I first darkened the doors of a parish, and went to an RCIA class. I found it very weird, and kind of…well, yucky. But recently I read an article about this very issue, here on Catholic Answers, that helped me tremendously:

Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine

So, please, I ask that you show Catholics the same courtesy that you would like them to show to you and members of your faith.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavier,
The scripture I quoted is clearly saying that these people tried to do all these things in the name of Christ and Christ does not recognize their authority. Some ministers claim they can to expel spirits or exorcise them, but clearly some of them do not have this authority and the Lord will reject their works.

We also know that the Pharaoh’s magicians performed miracles under Satan’s power.

Exodus 7:11, “Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.”

Evidences that Satan has power to operate miracles…

“And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.” —Revelation 13:14

“*For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, *which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” —Revelation 16:14

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that demons will not have the power, I am saying your use of that scripture did not prove it. Revelation 16:14 does show it and to a limited extent 1 Tim. 4:1, but the Mormons read much of Revelation as already unfolded, which I don’t see. Yes there have been antichrists but not The Antichrist.

 

[Xavierlives]

This has turned out to be a long thread, and I haven’t been able to keep up with all the discussions that have taken place. Tell me what you have learned so far, and what questions still remain in your mind. Are you any nearer to having your original question answered or not? If not, why not?

Well, I think the thread started in November and the basic question was about how the first church failed and fell into apostacy. Then the questions went to, how did the Mormons come to accept the Bible if that first church was in an apostate state.

To recap what I have been told. When the Apostles died the keys and the authority of the Church was lost. The only contrary argument is the Mormons also believe John is still alive and therefore holding keys and authority, but with the rest of the authority lost, the church did not immediate fail or fall. There was still good happening, one being the canonization of the Bible. Once that occurred, the apostate state grew (until some nice King in England got the idea to translate the Bible to English. So while in an apostacy, the King James Version was translated and it is superior version so long as you are using it with Joseph Smith’s translations). Then JS came along and restored the Church in its new and improved state. Changing things in the Bible. The Mormons adding parts and tried to bring the world out of its failed understanding through things like no plural marriage, then plural marriage, then no plural marriage. Things like, Adam was God, then Adam was Michael.

So, to answer your question of whether I am any nearer to having your original question answered or not? I’d say no.

From a protestant perspective, you might expect me to say, I acknowledge some failing of the first church and I don’t. I don’t because the first Church is based on Christ. I do not see any variation from that. Of course there are things I do not believe of the Catholics but I just view them as my separated brethren. We share an understanding of Salvation and Baptism. While they have some interesting ideas of repentance, I do not find heresy or theology that would put their faith in jeopardy.

I do find apostacy running rampant in the Mormon faith. So, while the Mormons seem to be ringing the bell they are failing to recognizing the warning.

 

[Jay53]

Jay,
There is no disagreement in choosing Mary to be the mother of Jesus. There is no objection to Gabriel angel appearing to her to announce the birth of Christ. God bless Mary for being the mother of Jesus! She was in fact a special woman to be chosen for this great honor! But, do you see anyone ordaining Mary to the ministry? Was she chosen to be a Bishop, apostle or prophet?

Besides, we are not to worship her! We are supposed to worship God and pray to him. Catholics pray to Mary…and that is worship! That is a violation of the commandments.

You misunderstood my point of view. Some apostles were fisherman, and yet Christ chose them to be apostles. In fact God chooses the weak and humble things of this world to elevate them to a higher status.

Why would Mary need to be ordained to the ministry? That is exactly my point. She was not a prophet/apostle/bishop, yet she received a revelation from God. You were arguing that only the prophets/apostles could receive revelation and you were criticizing the fact that some private revelations were given to people other than the Pope. I was trying to show you that God does not operate under such constraints. He doesn’t follow a “hierarchy” or “pecking order” or “chain of command” whereby if someone lower on the totem pole receives a (private) revelation/vision then it is automatically suspect.

I apparently don’t understand your point or you have changed it. In your last paragraph you are actually saying what I was saying - that God can choose whomever He wishes to give His revelations. What I took from your previous posts was that you (Mormons, in general) think that God could/should only give His revelations to prophets/apostles and that is why the Mormon church has their Qurorum of Twelve. And that the Catholic Church is apostate because we don’t have that because we believe that public revelation has ceased - Jesus gave us what we need for salvation and we have no need for any more public revelation with regards to our salvation.

 

[evanfaust]

You know, I heard that statement a lot when I was a new convert and was hanging with a Protestant crowd. It’s a common statement. I guess that non-Catholics think that they more they repeat this lie, the more believable it will become.

Bottom line is this : **The comments above re: Mary constitute a straw man argument. ** Evan, you’ve stated you used to be Catholic. So, unless you were not properly catechized, I would assume that you would know that your statements seem a little disingenuous.

Mormons don’t like it when their beliefs are mis-characterized. Personally I believe that they are justified in feeling this way. You’ve seen my previous posts–I try hard to take a balanced view and I do not like it when anyone feeds me baloney–and that INCLUDES other Catholics. In this case, I really think your statement is unfair. Please show the Catholic faith the same courtesy by not mis-characterizing what the CC actually teaches/what Catholics actually believe.

Please note that I say this as someone who was NOT very keen on the Mary thing when I first darkened the doors of a parish, and went to an RCIA class. I found it very weird, and kind of…well, yucky. But recently I read an article about this very issue, here on Catholic Answers, that helped me tremendously:

Any Friend of God’s is a Friend of Mine

So, please, I ask that you show Catholics the same courtesy that you would like them to show to you and members of your faith.

Sablouwho,
I thank you for being balanced, but if I am wrong, then please show me where I am wrong! I read the link you provided and I must tell you that it did not convince me. We agree on many points they made on this article you recommended, but it still does not convince why we should pray to someone else other than God the Father.

Asking a friend to pray for my wife or my father is not to invoke the prayer to that person. It is asking God to intercede for that person you are praying for. These are two different things. They have different meanings! We agree that you are showing your love when you pray for the good and success of another person. There is nothing wrong with that. You can even pray for someone who is dead, but you must direct your prayer to God and ask for His intervention on behalf of whomever you are praying for. Pray FOR and pray TO are two different things as you know!

Yes, I used to be Catholic and had to memorize many prayers, one of them was directed to Mary. Others were directed to the “canonized Saints”. By the way, what is the reason to “canonize a Saint” if all members of the Church of Christ are called Saints? I was taught to pray directly to Mary. Do you really want me to tell how I felt? Well, I did not like it at all. It did not feel good inside. For this and many other reasons I became less active in the Catholic Church…I would go to Mass once in a while. I did not connect with their teachings and their practices.

The scriptures teach differently…

We may recognize the importance of Mary, the Apostles, the Prophets, the Saints…etc. But we should not pray TO them. By praying TO others, we are worshipping them as gods! Recognizing the existence of other gods is one thing, to worship them is something else! That is my understanding. We recongnize that we have a spiritual Mother in Heaven, but we were told not to pray to her.

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” I Cor 8:5-6

Jesus taught very clearly how we should pray…and whom we should direct our prayers. Whom did Jesus pray to? He prayed to God, the father and not to his mother.

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven…” Mat 6:9

To show how sensitive this is I quote a scripture from the book of revelation… An angel, who was a prophet in previous dispensation appeared to John to deliver the message forbade John of worshipping him….

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I** fell down to worship** before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.” Rev 22:8-9

Peace to all! I don’t mean to offend, I am just exercising my free speech! If you convince me otherwise I will not bring it up anymore.

 

[paul_c]

Sablouwho,
I thank you for being balanced, but if I am wrong, then please show me where I am wrong! I read the link you provided and I must tell you that it did not convince me. We agree on many points they made on this article you recommended, but it still does not convince why we should pray to someone else other than God the Father.

Asking a friend to pray for my wife or my father is not to invoke the prayer to that person. It is asking God to intercede for that person you are praying for. These are two different things. They have different meanings! We agree that you are showing your love when you pray for the good and success of another person. There is nothing wrong with that. You can even pray for someone who is dead, but you must direct your prayer to God and ask for His intervention on behalf of whomever you are praying for. Pray FOR and pray TO are two different things as you know!

Yes, I used to be Catholic and had to memorize many prayers, one of them was directed to Mary. Others were directed to the “canonized Saints”. By the way, what is the reason to “canonize a Saint” if all members of the Church of Christ are called Saints? I was taught to pray directly to Mary. Do you really want me to tell how I felt? Well, I did not like it at all. It did not feel good inside. For this and many other reasons I became less active in the Catholic Church…I would go to Mass once in a while. I did not connect with their teachings and their practices.

The scriptures teach differently…

We may recognize the importance of Mary, the Apostles, the Prophets, the Saints…etc. But we should not pray TO them. By praying TO others, we are worshipping them as gods! Recognizing the existence of other gods is one thing, to worship them is something else! That is my understanding. We recongnize that we have a spiritual Mother in Heaven, but we were told not to pray to her.

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” I Cor 8:5-6

Jesus taught very clearly how we should pray…and whom we should direct our prayers. Whom did Jesus pray to? He prayed to God, the father and not to his mother.

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven…” Mat 6:9

To show how sensitive this is I quote a scripture from the book of revelation… An angel, who was a prophet in previous dispensation appeared to John to deliver the message forbade John of worshipping him….

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I** fell down to worship** before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.” Rev 22:8-9

Peace to all! I don’t mean to offend, I am just exercising my free speech! If you convince me otherwise I will not bring it up anymore.

Revelations doesn’t say the Angel was a prophet in a former life. He said he was a fellow servant of God with the prophets, who also serve God. Both are messengers.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sablouwho,
I thank you for being balanced, but if I am wrong, then please show me where I am wrong! I read the link you provided and I must tell you that it did not convince me. We agree on many points they made on this article you recommended, but it still does not convince why we should pray to someone else other than God the Father.

Asking a friend to pray for my wife or my father is not to invoke the prayer to that person. It is asking God to intercede for that person you are praying for. These are two different things. They have different meanings! We agree that you are showing your love when you pray for the good and success of another person. There is nothing wrong with that. You can even pray for someone who is dead, but you must direct your prayer to God and ask for His intervention on behalf of whomever you are praying for. Pray FOR and pray TO are two different things as you know!

Yes, I used to be Catholic and had to memorize many prayers, one of them was directed to Mary. Others were directed to the “canonized Saints”. By the way, what is the reason to “canonize a Saint” if all members of the Church of Christ are called Saints? I was taught to pray directly to Mary. Do you really want me to tell how I felt? Well, I did not like it at all. It did not feel good inside. For this and many other reasons I became less active in the Catholic Church…I would go to Mass once in a while. I did not connect with their teachings and their practices.

The scriptures teach differently…

We may recognize the importance of Mary, the Apostles, the Prophets, the Saints…etc. But we should not pray TO them.** By praying TO others, we are worshipping them as gods!** Recognizing the existence of other gods is one thing, to worship them is something else! That is my understanding. We recongnize that we have a spiritual Mother in Heaven, but we were told not to pray to her.

“For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” I Cor 8:5-6

Jesus taught very clearly how we should pray…and whom we should direct our prayers. Whom did Jesus pray to? He prayed to God, the father and not to his mother.

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven…” Mat 6:9

To show how sensitive this is I quote a scripture from the book of revelation… An angel, who was a prophet in previous dispensation appeared to John to deliver the message forbade John of worshipping him….

“And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I** fell down to worship** before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.” Rev 22:8-9

Peace to all! I don’t mean to offend, I am just exercising my free speech! If you convince me otherwise I will not bring it up anymore.

From MW on-line:

"*Main Entry: pray
Pronunciation: \ˈprā
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French prier, praer, preier, from Latin precari, from prec-, prex request, prayer; akin to Old High German frāga question, frāgēn to ask, Sanskrit pṛcchati he asks
Date: 13th century

transitive verb 1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb 1 : to make a request in a humble manner
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
*"

Don’t see “prayer=worship” there.

 

[SteveVH]

Asking a friend to pray for my wife or my father is not to invoke the prayer to that person. It is asking God to intercede for that person you are praying for. These are two different things. They have different meanings! We agree that you are showing your love when you pray for the good and success of another person. There is nothing wrong with that. You can even pray for someone who is dead, but you must direct your prayer to God and ask for His intervention on behalf of whomever you are praying for. Pray FOR and pray TO are two different things as you know!

You are correct in that praying FOR someone is different than praying TO someone. As Catholics we may pray TO someone FOR someone, just as one might ASK (pray to) a friend to pray FOR a friend. As a former Catholic, you have no doubt heard of the concept of the “Communion of Saints”. The CCC defines it as “The unity in Christ of all the redeemed, those on earth and those who have died”. Keep in mind that “those who have died” are not dead, but very much alive in the presence of God in heaven. I don’t ask you to necessarily believe this, but just understand it. We do not believe that we are separated from our loved ones (the saints) by death. Those in heaven, as the Bride of Christ, have become one with Him in a way incomprehensible to us. Through Christ, they hear our prayers and intercede for us. So you can see that it is not at all odd that we would pray (as a means of communication) to saints in heaven just as we would ask each other here on earth to pray for us or someone else. Luke 16:19-30 concerns a deceased rich man who intercedes for his brothers.

Yes, I used to be Catholic and had to memorize many prayers, one of them was directed to Mary. Others were directed to the “canonized Saints”. By the way, what is the reason to “canonize a Saint” if all members of the Church of Christ are called Saints? I was taught to pray directly to Mary. Do you really want me to tell how I felt? Well, I did not like it at all. It did not feel good inside. For this and many other reasons I became less active in the Catholic Church…I would go to Mass once in a while. I did not connect with their teachings and their practices.

Believing what you believe I don’t blame you in the least for how you felt. If I believed that someone was asking me to worship anyone other than God I would run and run fast. But that is not the case in the eyes of the Church or anyone who knows her teaching on the matter. The “Hail Mary”, for instance, is a very scriptural prayer. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you” is the salutation from the Angel to Mary at the annunciation. “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb” is the greeting from Elizabeth to Mary when she went to visit her. We then ask “holy Mary, Mother of God, (mother of Jesus, who is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” There are no words of adoration or worship directed to her. We ask her to pray for us.

The scriptures teach differently…

We may recognize the importance of Mary, the Apostles, the Prophets, the Saints…etc. But we should not pray TO them. By praying TO others, we are worshipping them as gods! Recognizing the existence of other gods is one thing, to worship them is something else! That is my understanding. We recongnize that we have a spiritual Mother in Heaven, but we were told not to pray to her.

As demonstrated already, prayer is a method of communication to God, as well as the saints. It is the content of the prayer that distinguishes worship from petition. Worship in itself, at a minimum requires a desire and intent to worship. We have no desire or intent to worship anyone other than God. I am curious as to where “we were told not to pray to her”. Is that a scripture reference?

Jesus taught very clearly how we should pray…and whom we should direct our prayers. Whom did Jesus pray to? He prayed to God, the father and not to his mother.

Why would Jesus ever have prayed to His mother? He could just talk to her. Being God Himself, He certainly wouldn’t have prayed in worship of her. Not sure what your point is here.

To show how sensitive this is I quote a scripture from the book of revelation… An angel, who was a prophet in previous dispensation appeared to John to deliver the message forbade John of worshipping him….

I would hope that the angel forbade worship of himself by John. Again, I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. We all agree that we should worship no one but God.

Peace to all! I don’t mean to offend, I am just exercising my free speech! If you convince me otherwise I will not bring it up anymore.

This is the place to exercise your speach. You’re not offending anyone.

God bless.

 

[sablouwho]

Sablouwho,
I thank you for being balanced, but if I am wrong, then please show me where I am wrong! I read the link you provided and I must tell you that it did not convince me. We agree on many points they made on this article you recommended, but it still does not convince why we should pray to someone else other than God the Father.

Two things–first, I think you and confusing prayer and worship. When applied to Mary or the other saints, the former is a request for intercession, it isn’t worship.

Second, I didn’t expect you to be convinced or to gain a testimony of this practice–I don’t expect you to agree with it. But it would be nice if you could somehow see that the practice as the CC teaches it isn’t the same as what you are saying that it is. That was the main point of my prior post.

was taught to pray directly to Mary. Do you really want me to tell how I felt? Well, I did not like it at all. It did not feel good inside. For this and many other reasons I became less active in the Catholic Church…I would go to Mass once in a while. I did not connect with their teachings and their practices.

Well, you probably know what I’m going to say here…if you didn’t connect with this stuff, than IMO it probably wasn’t a good fit for you. The fact that you didn’t like the Marian devotions doesn’t offend me. Actually, it, is something I can relate to since it bothered me for quite a while. I happen to have warmed to the idea, but that too has taken prayer, patience and sincere desire, (and if I didn’t want to be Catholic I betcha I may not have ever warmed to this idea.)

I really can relate to not feeling good in a religious context. I affirm that it sounds like you aren’t meant to be Catholic and that it sounds like being LDS is meaningful and fulfilling for you.I have mentioned before that I didn’t feel good in the LDS context. It just wasn’t for me no matter how much I prayed about it. Yet I recall in a recent post, you referred to it as a feast. For you, I have no doubt that it is. But for me, that “feast” wasn’t something that I could digest. We are both very fortunate to live in a time in human history where we are able to practice our respective religions without being fed to lions!

 

[Xavierlives]

I’ll be the first to admit I don’t understand the Mary thing.

 

[Xavierlives]

You are correct in that praying FOR someone is different than praying TO someone. As Catholics we may pray TO someone FOR someone, just as one might ASK (pray to) a friend to pray FOR a friend. As a former Catholic, you have no doubt heard of the concept of the “Communion of Saints”. The CCC defines it as “The unity in Christ of all the redeemed, those on earth and those who have died”. Keep in mind that “those who have died” are not dead, but very much alive in the presence of God in heaven. I don’t ask you to necessarily believe this, but just understand it. We do not believe that we are separated from our loved ones (the saints) by death. Those in heaven, as the Bride of Christ, have become one with Him in a way incomprehensible to us. Through Christ, they hear our prayers and intercede for us. So you can see that it is not at all odd that we would pray (as a means of communication) to saints in heaven just as we would ask each other here on earth to pray for us or someone else. Luke 16:19-30 concerns a deceased rich man who intercedes for his brothers.

Believing what you believe I don’t blame you in the least for how you felt. If I believed that someone was asking me to worship anyone other than God I would run and run fast. But that is not the case in the eyes of the Church or anyone who knows her teaching on the matter. The “Hail Mary”, for instance, is a very scriptural prayer. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you” is the salutation from the Angel to Mary at the annunciation. “Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb” is the greeting from Elizabeth to Mary when she went to visit her. We then ask “holy Mary, Mother of God, (mother of Jesus, who is God), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” There are no words of adoration or worship directed to her. We ask her to pray for us.

As demonstrated already, prayer is a method of communication to God, as well as the saints. It is the content of the prayer that distinguishes worship from petition. Worship in itself, at a minimum requires a desire and intent to worship. We have no desire or intent to worship anyone other than God. I am curious as to where “we were told not to pray to her”. Is that a scripture reference?

Why would Jesus ever have prayed to His mother? He could just talk to her. Being God Himself, He certainly wouldn’t have prayed in worship of her. Not sure what your point is here.

I would hope that the angel forbade worship of himself by John. Again, I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. We all agree that we should worship no one but God.

This is the place to exercise your speach. You’re not offending anyone.

God bless.

Has the Catholic Church always taught this? Why don’t we see early Christians praying to Dismas or Stephen? Is there an example of Christ doing this while he was on the Earth, because all I can think of is Christ praying directly to the Father.

 

[PaulDupre]

By the way, don’t Catholics believe that all the revelations are in the Bible?

No.

 

[zaffiroborant]

By the way, don’t Catholics believe that all the revelations are in the Bible?

No.

Oakes recently gave his testimony at Harvard and put forth this same misrepresentation, along with the usual digs.

 

[sablouwho]

Has the Catholic Church always taught this? Why don’t we see early Christians praying to Dismas or Stephen? Is there an example of Christ doing this while he was on the Earth, because all I can think of is Christ praying directly to the Father.

This isn’t an exact answer to your question, but maybe it will help. In a class I recently took, the instructor showed slides of early Christian art. There are examples of authentic wall paintings from that era with “Peter, pray for us” inscribed on them. I wasn’t taking notes so I don’t remember the exact dates, but IIRC I think it came from around the mid 100’s AD.

 

[Xavierlives]

This isn’t an exact answer to your question, but maybe it will help. In a class I recently took, the instructor showed slides of early Christian art. There are examples of authentic wall paintings from that era with “Peter, pray for us” inscribed on them. I wasn’t taking notes so I don’t remember the exact dates, but IIRC I think it came from around the mid 100’s AD.

Well, I think this is where the protestant in me shows up because if we don’t see an example of Christ doing it (especially something like prayer), then I have a real problem with it. Moreover, since Christ does give an example of prayer, it seems like we can directly pray to God.