LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[sablouwho]

Well, I think this is where the protestant in me shows up because if we don’t see an example of Christ doing it (especially something like prayer), then I have a real problem with it. Moreover, since Christ does give an example of prayer, it seems like we can directly pray to God.

I sure hope no one here disagrees with you on THAT!

But yeah, I do understand that as a Protestant you would see things differently. Personally, the Mary/Saints thing was pretty foreign to me until rather recently. (Probably not a surprise since after my conversion 4 years ago, I attended a Protestant church for a few years.) It was, for a while, a barrier to my being able to become Catholic, but I have slowly warmed to the practice and now I actually like it.

 

[Xavierlives]

I sure hope no one here disagrees with you on THAT!

But yeah, I do understand that as a Protestant you would see things differently. Personally, the Mary/Saints thing was pretty foreign to me until rather recently. (Probably not a surprise since after my conversion 4 years ago, I attended a Protestant church for a few years.) It was, for a while, a barrier to my being able to become Catholic, but I have slowly warmed to the practice and now I actually like it.

Well, I understand it, I just don’t see it as necessary. I think Mary played an important role, but no more than any other faithful follower of Christ.

 

[paul_c]

Well, I understand it, I just don’t see it as necessary. I think Mary played an important role, but no more than any other faithful follower of Christ.

Xavier, Surely being chosen to be the mother of Jesus is a little more important than any other faithful follower of Christ. She was called “full of Grace” by the Archangel Gabriel for a reason…

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavier, Surely being chosen to be the mother of Jesus is a little more important than any other faithful follower of Christ. She was called “full of Grace” by the Archangel Gabriel for a reason…

Well, I am not saying she does not hold an important place in Christianity, but no more than than the people listed in Hebrews 11.

 

[paul_c]

Well, I am not saying she does not hold an important place in Christianity, but no more than than the people listed in Hebrews 11.

Well, who am I to judge he relative merits of these people? But do not sell Mary short, She played and continues to play a very important role in Christianity.

 

[Xavierlives]

Well, who am I to judge he relative merits of these people? But do not sell Mary short, She played and continues to play a very important role in Christianity.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I think what we see in Hebrews 11 is the faith of people who continue to speak to us. I am sure you can take lessons from Mary. I just take similar lessons from others in the Bible. I don’t hold anyone out or up as more significant than others.

 

[Tmaque]

Well, I am not saying she does not hold an important place in Christianity, but no more than than the people listed in Hebrews 11.

If Mary had said “no” to Gabriel, Jesus would not have been born. Pretty important if you ask me.

In addition, The Bible tells that Gabriel called her “Kecharitomene”. Which really means more than “full of grace”. It means one who has been graced and continues in grace. The Bible also tells us that where grace abounds sin cannot exist. Mary holds a very very important place in the story of our salvation.

 

[Xavierlives]

If Mary had said “no” to Gabriel, Jesus would not have been born. Pretty important if you ask me.

In addition, The Bible tells that Gabriel called her “Kecharitomene”. Which really means more than “full of grace”. It means one who has been graced and continues in grace. The Bible also tells us that where grace abounds sin cannot exist. Mary holds a very very important place in the story of our salvation.

And like I said, she played an important role, but her faith was not any more extraordinary than anyone else mentioned in Hebrews 11.

 

[paul_c]

And like I said, she played an important role, but her faith was not any more extraordinary than anyone else mentioned in Hebrews 11.

How can you judge that? What is your particular insight on this point?

 

[Xavierlives]

How can you judge that? What is your particular insight on this point?

Err… How do I judge what? I didn’t think there was any judgment call being made here. I was simply saying Mary, like hundreds of others mentioned in the Bible, had an important roll.

Did you want to talk about veneration?

 

[sablouwho]

Err… How do I judge what? I didn’t think there was any judgment call being made here. I was simply saying Mary, like hundreds of others mentioned in the Bible, had an important roll.

Did you want to talk about veneration?

Ummm…may I politely suggest that at this point, if Xavier and PaulC want to debate this further, it is more appropriate to do so on a new thread? It seems unlikely that this discussion can be “settled” here with a mere few more back and forth answers, and it’s also pretty far OT.

 

[paul_c]

Ummm…may I politely suggest that at this point, if Xavier and PaulC want to debate this further, it is more appropriate to do so on a new thread? It seems unlikely that this discussion can be “settled” here with a mere few more back and forth answers, and it’s also pretty far OT.

agreed.

 

[Xavierlives]

Ummm…may I politely suggest that at this point, if Xavier and PaulC want to debate this further, it is more appropriate to do so on a new thread? It seems unlikely that this discussion can be “settled” here with a mere few more back and forth answers, and it’s also pretty far OT.

Well Mormons might argue that veneration of Mary and the Saints is a sign of the apostacy and the failures of the first Church (but I don’t need to go putting words in their mouths).

 

[AtticusFinch]

I have never had any LDS able to point to the date of the Apostasy. Such an important event, and no one can tell me when it happened.

And here is something else…they claim Apostasy means the Priesthood was taken from the Earth, yet they believe never died…so apparently, John lost his Preisthood. They also claim three Nephites never died…guess they also lost their Preisthood.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Has the Catholic Church always taught this? Why don’t we see early Christians praying to Dismas or Stephen? Is there an example of Christ doing this while he was on the Earth, because all I can think of is Christ praying directly to the Father.

There were no saints in Heaven when Christ was on earth. The scriptures show members of Christ’s body, the Church, praying and interceding for one another, and there’s no indication that this praying and interceding ceased when members of the body left this earthly life and entered heaven.

Peace,
Robert

 

[paul_c]

I have never had any LDS able to point to the date of the Apostasy. Such an important event, and no one can tell me when it happened.

And here is something else…they claim Apostasy means the Priesthood was taken from the Earth, yet they believe never died…so apparently, John lost his Preisthood. They also claim three Nephites never died…guess they also lost their Preisthood.

We’re going through this in another Mormon thread now. The claim there is that the Apostasy happened when the Church lost the sense of celestial marriage and that it was gradual. Of course, not only is celestial marriage not covered in Scripture, its actually directly contradicted in Luke 20: 34-36 and 1Corinthians 7. So it seems that celestial marriage is indeed one of the signs of the Apostasy - the Mormon Apostasy.

 

[AtticusFinch]

that is silly. If you are going to base a whole Church on an event, you oughta be able to point to the event. And again, if John and the Three Nephites walk the earth, how was there never the Priesthood here?

 

[paul_c]

that is silly. If you are going to base a whole Church on an event, you oughta be able to point to the event. And again, if John and the Three Nephites walk the earth, how was there never the Priesthood here?

Well, I agree with you , which is one of the reasons I am Catholic and not Mormon.

 

[evanfaust]

that is silly. If you are going to base a whole Church on an event, you oughta be able to point to the event. And again, if John and the Three Nephites walk the earth, how was there never the Priesthood here?

Atticus,

The apostasy refers to the absence of the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth. This is not to say that there may not be some who hold the priesthood, but they have no authority or authorization to establish the Church or perform its ordinances.

Presidents J. Rueben Clark, Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee went so far as to teach that the presence of such priesthood holders during periods of apostasy were, in their opinion, a necessity:

President [J. Reuben] Clark said something that startled some folks years ago. He said, "It is my faith that the gospel plan has always been here, that his priesthood has always been here on the earth, and that it will continue to be so until the end comes" (in Conference Report, October 1953, p. 39). When that conference session was over there were many who said, “My goodness, doesn’t President Clark realize that there have been periods of apostasy following each dispensation of the gospel?”

I walked over to the Church Office Building with President Joseph Fielding Smith and he said, "I believe there has never been a moment of time since the creation that God has abandoned the earth to Satan. There has always been someone holding the priesthood on the earth to hold Satan in check." And then I thought of Enoch’s city with perhaps thousands who were taken into heaven and were translated. They must have been translated for a purpose and may have sojourned with those living on the earth ever since that time. I have thought of Elijah—and perhaps Moses; for all we know they were translated beings, as was John the Revelator. I have thought of the Three Nephites. Why were they translated and permitted to tarry? For what purpose? An answer was suggested when I heard President Smith make the above statement. Now, that doesn’t mean that the kingdom of God has always been present, because these men did not have the authority to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel to the world. But these individuals were translated for a purpose known to the Lord. There is no question but what they were here.

Critics fail to distinguish between someone holding the priesthood, and someone being authorized to exercise the priesthood in forming the Church, conferring blessings, ordinantions, and spiritual gifts.

The apostasy refers to a lack of the latter, not the former.

en.fairmormon.org/Apostasy/Priesthood_on_earth_during_the_apostasy

.

 

[paul_c]

Atticus,

The apostasy refers to the absence of the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth. This is not to say that there may not be some who hold the priesthood, but they have no authority or authorization to establish the Church or perform its ordinances.

Presidents J. Rueben Clark, Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee went so far as to teach that the presence of such priesthood holders during periods of apostasy were, in their opinion, a necessity:

President [J. Reuben] Clark said something that startled some folks years ago. He said, "It is my faith that the gospel plan has always been here, that his priesthood has always been here on the earth, and that it will continue to be so until the end comes" (in Conference Report, October 1953, p. 39). When that conference session was over there were many who said, “My goodness, doesn’t President Clark realize that there have been periods of apostasy following each dispensation of the gospel?”

I walked over to the Church Office Building with President Joseph Fielding Smith and he said, "I believe there has never been a moment of time since the creation that God has abandoned the earth to Satan. There has always been someone holding the priesthood on the earth to hold Satan in check." And then I thought of Enoch’s city with perhaps thousands who were taken into heaven and were translated. They must have been translated for a purpose and may have sojourned with those living on the earth ever since that time. I have thought of Elijah—and perhaps Moses; for all we know they were translated beings, as was John the Revelator. I have thought of the Three Nephites. Why were they translated and permitted to tarry? For what purpose? An answer was suggested when I heard President Smith make the above statement. Now, that doesn’t mean that the kingdom of God has always been present, because these men did not have the authority to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel to the world. But these individuals were translated for a purpose known to the Lord. There is no question but what they were here.

Critics fail to distinguish between someone holding the priesthood, and someone being authorized to exercise the priesthood in forming the Church, conferring blessings, ordinantions, and spiritual gifts.

The apostasy refers to a lack of the latter, not the former.

en.fairmormon.org/Apostasy/Priesthood_on_earth_during_the_apostasy

.

Isn’t it extremely obvious that there was no apostasy in the Catholic Church and that it is actually Joseph Smith and his followers who apostasized. We can show all the ways the Mormon’s deviate from authentic Christian Teaching. They know them too. Mormon’s call them new revelations. That’s pretty hollow from a church who’s founder claims he was restoring the original church. In reality, it is clear that he was teaching his own innovations.