LDS Question:Lying for the Lord

[SteveVH]

So call me, Paul, John, and Moses Gnostics if you wish. Whatever you want to call us is fine with me.

No, Parker, just you and those who believe as do you. Paul preached Christ crucified. John recognized Him as co-eternal with the Father, as God Himself, not a god himself. Moses spoke face to face with the ONE true God and entered into covenant with Him. Sorry, but you are not in the same company.

You believe that your salvation is based upon acquiring secret knowledge that should remain hidden from those you do not deem worthy. Well I have a secret for you. Your salvation is in the crucified and resurrected Jesus, period. You will be judged according to how much you loved, not on the amount of knowledge you have acquired.

The Gospel really is simple. “Ask, and ye shall receive. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”

No, the Gospel, the Good News, is that Christ humbled himself to become one of us, suffered and died for us so that we might rise with him. It isn’t about us, Parker, it is about Christ. From your comments, you apparently believe that asking and receiving, seeking and finding, knocking and opening applies to the reception of secret knowledge which is only for the few on the planet who observe your temple rites. If I’m wrong, please tell me.

When the deaf “hear the words of the book” and the “eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness”, then it will be because they could hear and see because they sought the kind of knowledge that was hidden from the world. That knowledge leads on an upward path–one that requires applying the Savior’s teachings about asking, seeking, and knocking. Those are simple concepts.

No. It is much simpler. Sacrificial love is the knowledge hidden from the world. Laying down one’s life for another, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, giving shelter to the homeless, giving comfort to the sick and dying. That is how one becomes Christ-like and inherits the kingdom of God. It is not about building a tower to heaven with steps of hidden knowledge, self perfection and self-exaltation. It is not about you becoming a god, it is about God becoming one of us.

 

[ParkerD]

So if people knew about the sacred rituals in the temple and rejected them, they would be in a position of condemnation?

Yes, they would–because by sharing something sacred with others who don’t hold it sacred, they would be showing a rebellious attitude toward that which is sacred, so that puts them under condemnation.

This isn’t about teaching new converts “everything” and that was not my question. It was obvious from my story that the missionaries GREATLY EMBELLISHED the archaelogical findings of the BoM. Is that wrong?

I had misunderstood where your question was leading. There have been a lot of misunderstandings about archeological findings and trying to relate them to the Book of Mormon. Missionaries could bring misconceptions about that with them, but if they study their current lesson material, I don’t think archeology is mentioned, at all. Guesses about archeology can go in many directions for different people.

You lost me on this one. What Catholics are you referring to?

I wasn’t referring to Catholics, at all. I was referring to the hypothetical situation that was implied in the question about why the missionaries don’t teach “temple covenants” to prospective converts.

 

[ParkerD]

This comment seems inconsistent with what you posted previously… Your earlier comment implied you were withholding teachings that you felt others might not fully understand.

Robert,

I have answered questions, but if I were to fully explain then I would do two things–(1) relate every answer to the entire body of knowledge about the gospel, because all of the body of knowledge about the gospel and why we are here on this earth relate very closely and bring meaning to answers to specific questions, for those who see how it all “fits together”. (2) I would be writing a book for answering every question, because there is a book’s worth of understanding to really have a full basis for understanding a subject. (As, for example, the thread about eternal marriage that you recently started.)

And yet the LDS church withholds the experience from others?

My point was that experiential knowledge is not sharable, other than in the “telling” of it. That doesn’t help someone get the same experiential knowledge into their life to have the basis for changing their life and it becoming a part of their core inner self. Plus, some experiences are beyond words that adequately describe the experience.

And it seems to me that the criteria from experiencing these mysteries is simply related to proving loyalty to the church by tithing, etc.

No, not at all. If a person thought by being faithful in tithing they were going to have spiritual experiences, then they would have wrong thinking. It takes a prepared heart, and “asking, seeking, knocking”. It also comes “as the Spirit listeth”, and thus is according to God’s timetable and not the individual person’s timetable. A person simply may have an outpouring of spiritual knowledge and understanding at a time they may not have been expecting it, but yet were ready for it because they had been generally seeking knowledge and wisdom from God, and had been patient along the way.

[13] Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. Mt 25:13.

So, do you think that there is only so much LDS “oil” to go around? Is truth a limited commodity?

I wasn’t trying to imply that only the LDS have “oil in their lamps.” I think the concept of getting “oil in our lamps” applies across the board for believers in Christ, and having such qualities as service experiences, growth-in-knowledge or -faith experiences including feeling the real guidance of the Holy Ghost many, many times during such experiences, represents “oil in our lamps” and those experiences need to be gained on a personal basis.

Peace,
Robert

Peace to you also, and to your loved ones.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

So call me, Paul, John, and Moses Gnostics if you wish. Whatever you want to call us is fine with me.

The Gospel really is simple. “Ask, and ye shall receive. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”

But not if you knock on a mormon door, right? Can’t you see that there’s no biblical justification for withholding knowledge from persons who are sincerely seeking… It’s not a “milk before meat” thing. It seems to be more about an esoteric kind of theology… that only the “initiated” are entitled to the full truth. And that’s just not biblical and not morally acceptable.

Peace,
Robert

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Mormons lie about more than temple ordinances. They lie about Mormon history, for example.
This link was on page one of this thread, posted by Big Dummy. I found it well worth reading. Many additional links are given.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

About archaeology – all Mormon claims are false. There is no archaeological evidence to support the tales told by Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. They are also disproved by genetic studies of American Indians.

Jim Dandy

 

[ParkerD]

But not if you knock on a mormon door, right? Can’t you see that there’s no biblical justification for withholding knowledge from persons who are sincerely seeking… It’s not a “milk before meat” thing. It seems to be more about an esoteric kind of theology… that only the “initiated” are entitled to the full truth. And that’s just not biblical and not morally acceptable.

Peace,
Robert

Robert,

I take it that you were writing this post before I wrote my response to your other questions. It’s not about “initiated”.

If you want an analogy, would you put a first grader in a Calculus class and expect them to “get it” and be happy in that class? I don’t think they would be happy in such a class, and I think it would be unfair to expect them to “get it.”

 

[campeador]

Robert,

I take it that you were writing this post before I wrote my response to your other questions. It’s not about “initiated”.

If you want an analogy, would you put a first grader in a Calculus class and expect them to “get it” and be happy in that class? I don’t think they would be happy in such a class, and I think it would be unfair to expect them to “get it.”

But Parker, when it comes to the Kingdom of Heaven, little children ‘get it’ better than you or I:

“At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who, do you think, is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus, calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them. And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 18:1-4

 

[JeanMichel]

But Parker, when it comes to the Kingdom of Heaven, little children ‘get it’ better than you or I:

“At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who, do you think, is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus, calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them. And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 18:1-4

Christ’s teaching is clear that it is not simplicity or ignorance, but humility and conversion to truth that is needed to enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is surprising that you keep coming back, Parker. I don’t think I could do it. The degree that your words are twisted, verbal traps set just to “catch” you in your words. The majority of these are people are not Catholics except in word only maybe. Our actions belie our true commitment to Christ or lack of it.

It is amazing to what lengths anti-Mormons and anti-Catholics will go to twist these respective churches’ message. Even creating a multitude of websites.

I would ask of you and all Mormons to overlook the actions of the few and seek those who follow Christ with their hearts. In them you will find peace and charity. You will find that there is no need for the teachings of men, but a honest search to glorify God. There is much to learn to emulate Christ, but it can be summed up in the two great commandments, Love God and love others.

Parker, I would also ask you to consider having a cross in your home. It is a wonderful thing to have there to help you contemplate the love of God for each of us. I know Mormons who have attended the temple wear special garments that represent the covenants they have made with God. This is good, but sometimes it helps to have something before your eyes that will help you remember God even more often. A cross or a crucifix will do this for you. Please try it and see if your daily spiritual life is not improved. It helps us be humble; we can be nothing less when we sit before it and think of our Savior.

 

[gmcbroom]

So Lying for the Lord is the foundamentalist Mormons equivalent, of not casting pearls before swine. I can understand that.
peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[GaryTaylor]

My point was that experiential knowledge is not sharable, other than in the “telling” of it. That doesn’t help someone get the same experiential knowledge into their life to have the basis for changing their life and it becoming a part of their core inner self. Plus, some experiences are beyond words that adequately describe the experience.

If you want an analogy, would you put a first grader in a Calculus class and expect them to “get it” and be happy in that class? I don’t think they would be happy in such a class, and I think it would be unfair to expect them to “get it.”

You are joking right? I can’t believe, you believe this drival. I 'll give you this, you have a lot heart coming here and trying to defend this nonsense. “Experiental Knowledge” How about an example in “your” faith of this experiental knowledge. I don’t need a definition, or an analogy or biblical correlation. I want you to to give us “one” example of this in you faith.

You should save this rap for the children your corrupting at the Mormon community. I would bet by 8-11 they wouldn’t even believe this drival. Followers must run away from the Mormon Community by the busload with this philosophy. Matter of fact you must need to find complete fools to go for this. And in which case you ought be ashamed of yourself for taking advantage of them.

So what does it take do receive this info, the deed to the house and the first born child, with a signature of enslavement for life? Then you get to hear the big joke right?

Does everyone have the supreme knowledge at the Mormon community of does there even exist at that point a " on the need to know basis"? Do you even have this knowledge? Or are you also still being feed milk?

 

[ParkerD]

But Parker, when it comes to the Kingdom of Heaven, little children ‘get it’ better than you or I:

“At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who, do you think, is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus, calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them. And said: amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 18:1-4

Campeador,

Yes, good point. If anyone thinks they don’t need to be “born again” and thus become as a “little child” and be nurtured by the Savior by “becoming His sons and his daughters”, then they won’t have the faith, won’t have the trust, will be scoffing at any sort of spiritual experience or understanding because they are too sophisticated or consider themselves already knowledgeable so they won’t yield to His teachings and His loving embrace. Then, He won’t be able to teach them, because of their own choice.

Being “born again” begins a path toward spiritual knowledge and toward sanctification. But the person who becomes “born again” hasn’t arrived. They certainly aren’t in Heaven yet (though a young child does have an intuitive spiritual perspective that William Wordsworth described as “heaven lies about him in his infancy”).

And the moment a person decides, even if they have been “born again”, that they have “arrived” and thus they no longer yield themselves to being changed, guided, and nurtured with spiritual knowledge that really is like “living water” or like a “well of water springing up into everlasting life” and “wine and milk without money and without price” (Isaiah 55:1), then they will have lost that beginning point of faith and trust, and will have become like those who are “spewed out of [His] mouth” because they have become “lukewarm”. (Revelation 3:16)

So, thanks for bringing that up. Nicodemus was being taught a very important truth in the experience described in John 3, and later the disciples were being taught a very important truth as you noted.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Being “born again” begins a path toward spiritual knowledge and toward sanctification. But the person who becomes “born again” hasn’t arrived. They certainly aren’t in Heaven yet (though a young child does have an intuitive spiritual perspective that William Wordsworth described as “heaven lies about him in his infancy”).”

More rationalizing.

Another flaw in thinking is “born again” and more drival which coincides which a Protestant view on Baptism. BTW we don’t believe any of that here. Thats also in the class of deceit you signed up for.

You offer nothing here, not even “information”. Nothing…ZIP! Its a dead conversation which ended when “you” chose to go with your “Experiental Knowledge”.

Amazing how you can have a conversation about “nothing” and place spiritual, mystical importance on it.

 

[Stephen168]

Also, withholding information and lying can be two different things.

The young man I met several years ago who had just moved here (to Utah) from central California explained to me that he converted to Mormonism because “the missionaries told me that there is a great amount of archaelogical evidence to prove the Book of Mormon is true” and that “it proves my people are part of the Chosen People.”

At the time, I just wished him well in his new home, but have been burning mad every time I think about it!
Next time, I will know enough to challenge the missionaries and their lies.
Admit it, those were lies. There is no proof!

When I was in high school, I had Mormon friends that actually believed there was evidence, so it would not surprise me if a Mormon would come to my house and tell me the same story.

I am more offended by the Mormon that acts like there is something there; a Mormon bluff.
Mormon: Come join my restored Church because your Church has lost its authority.
Catholic: How do you know that?
Mormon: I don’t have to tell you.

To hear that guy in the video tell those kids how wise and smart they are, but they don’t have to answer questions. Telling them they are smarter than any non-Mormon, so if they can’t answer a question it is OK, the asker is below them. The arrogance was amazing to hear.

 

[ParkerD]

To general readers:

I see that I have been asked about what I meant by “experiential knowledge”.

There would be hundreds of illustrations of life experiences where a person gained “experiential knowledge”. I found one that I could quickly share without spending a lot of time writing about others:

Strengthened by a Hymn
Khetiwe Ratsoma, South Africa

I decided to compete in a marathon with work colleagues in Western Cape, South Africa. I trained and worked very hard in preparation for the race.

On the day of the race, I woke up, read my scriptures, and prayed. I was nervous, but I also felt that I needed to trust in the Lord. I knew that if I did, He would provide sustenance and support.

We were required to walk or run 40 kilometers (25 miles). We started at 8:00 a.m. The weather was cool and slightly rainy, so at first I enjoyed the walk and was doing well. But when I was about 10 kilometers from the finish line, the race became very hard for me. I had muscle pulls in one leg, and I had some blisters. I wanted to quit. Then I began singing a hymn:

Fear not, I am with thee; oh, be not dismayed,
For I am thy God and will still give thee aid.
I’ll strengthen thee, help thee, and cause thee to stand, …
Upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand.
(“How Firm a Foundation,” Hymns, no. 85)

Over and over the words of the hymn flooded my mind and lifted my feet, and I finished the race in the strength of the Lord’s hymn.

This experience taught me that the gospel of Jesus Christ is about endurance. It is like walking or running in a race. We get tired sometimes, rest, and walk again. Heavenly Father does not give up on us no matter how many times we fall; to Him what counts is how many times we stand up and walk again. His gospel is about finishing the race.

Source:
lds.org/liahona/2011/02/small-and-simple-things?lang=eng

 

[GaryTaylor]

To general readers:

I see that I have been asked about what I meant by “experiential knowledge”.

There would be hundreds of illustrations of life experiences where a person gained “experiential knowledge”. I found one that I could quickly share without spending a lot of time writing about others:

Source:
lds.org/liahona/2011/02/small-and-simple-things?lang=eng

More “drival” you have been asked to relate “experiential knowledge” to the Mormon Faith. No one here needs it defined or an analogy. Relate to Mormons.

POLYGAMY is what we want to hear about and how that relates to “Experiential Knowledge” and why the Mormon Faith inisits its a rumor, when its a fact? So why the lies and deceit in Christs name?

Your link is a SORRY attempt to promote the Mormon Faith with you avoiding direct questions. Nice try.

 

[lax16]

Yes, they would–because by sharing something sacred with others who don’t hold it sacred, they would be showing a rebellious attitude toward that which is sacred, so that puts them under condemnation.

Hi Parker - Where in the Old or New Testament are rituals kept from someone for fear of a rebellious attitude? Jesus said “drink My blood and eat My flesh” and “love your enemy” and the people thought he was crazy. He didn’t hold back on giving the people the meat of Chrisitanity. He definitely wasn’t handing out milk before meat. Why should we?
How can a person make a decision about joining a religion if they are not made aware of the rituals?

I had misunderstood where your question was leading. There have been a lot of misunderstandings about archeological findings and trying to relate them to the Book of Mormon. Missionaries could bring misconceptions about that with them, but if they study their current lesson material, I don’t think archeology is mentioned, at all. Guesses about archeology can go in many directions for different people.

But Parker, Mormons only read/listen to pro-LDS material. The info about the BoM being proven by archaelogy would have to come from your church. Missionaries would only have misconceptions because they were led to believe it was true by the Mormon church and it was obviously encouraged as a belief.
It is not wise to “guess” about such things when a person is making a decision about converting.

I wasn’t referring to Catholics, at all. I was referring to the hypothetical situation that was implied in the question about why the missionaries don’t teach “temple covenants” to prospective converts.

No, I was talking about missionaries speaking with authority in the name of the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot be wrong. I was told this by the one hostile missionary that came to our house (the other young man was very nice). Your reply was ditto.

 

[rainman10]

Yes, they would–because by sharing something sacred with others who don’t hold it sacred, they would be showing a rebellious attitude toward that which is sacred, so that puts them under condemnation.

So, then, these sacred things would be shared with someone after they are baptized Mormons, correct? What if they still don’t hold those things as sacred, aren’t they still under condemnation as showing rebellious attitudes? Must be even more sinful, since they are now full fledged Mormons. So if this is the case, way does it matter if they are told these sacred things before or after having converted? If they don’t accept, they are still condemned, right?

 

[gmcbroom]

Rainman10,
Parker does have a point. People who hear the truth willingly and by choice are often open to the message. But, there are always those who even after hearing it reject it. The truth isn’t easy to hear for some. Jesus even had situations where this occured, case in point the message that one must eat his body and blood, many walked out when they heard it, for it sounded like cannabilism (some still do even after being baptized).
peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[campeador]

Rainman10,
Parker does have a point. People who hear the truth willingly and by choice are often open to the message. But, there are always those who even after hearing it reject it. The truth isn’t easy to hear for some. Jesus even had situations where this occured, case in point the message that one must eat his body and blood, many walked out when they heard it, for it sounded like cannabilism (some still do even after being baptized).
peace be with you
gmcbroom

So, Jesus made a mistake by introducing them to this doctrine too early.

 

[SteveVH]

Rainman10,
Parker does have a point. People who hear the truth willingly and by choice are often open to the message. But, there are always those who even after hearing it reject it. The truth isn’t easy to hear for some. Jesus even had situations where this occured, case in point the message that one must eat his body and blood, many walked out when they heard it, for it sounded like cannabilism (some still do even after being baptized).
peace be with you
gmcbroom

The point, however, is whether or not we withhold information concerning the gospel based upon our judgment of one’s character or ability to deal with it. The answer is no. Christ told a crowd that unless they eat his flesh and drink his blood they would have no life in them. These aren’t easy things to hear but He didn’t hold back even though the entire crowd apparently wasn’t ready for the message as evidenced by their leaving him.