LDS Question:Lying for the Lord

[SteveVH]

Rainman10,
Parker does have a point. People who hear the truth willingly and by choice are often open to the message. But, there are always those who even after hearing it reject it. The truth isn’t easy to hear for some. Jesus even had situations where this occured, case in point the message that one must eat his body and blood, many walked out when they heard it, for it sounded like cannabilism (some still do even after being baptized).
peace be with you
gmcbroom

This is a great example that we have received from Christ himself. Speak the truth, even if it is difficult, even if that person will turn around and run. It is not up to us to determine whether or not someone is worthy, or ready to hear the truth. The Mormon responses on this subject are nothing more than scrambling around in an effort to justify their practices of hiding what they truly believe until that person has been indoctrinated to the point where they won’t run out of the room screaming to the rest of the world. I am suspect of any religious organization that believes it must keep its true self hidden from those outside of its gates.

 

[lax16]

This is a great example that we have received from Christ himself. Speak the truth, even if it is difficult, even if that person will turn around and run. It is not up to us to determine whether or not someone is worthy, or ready to hear the truth. The Mormon responses on this subject are nothing more than scrambling around in an effort to justify their practices of hiding what they truly believe until that person has been indoctrinated to the point where they won’t run out of the room screaming to the rest of the world. I am suspect of any religious organization that believes it must keep its true self hidden from those outside of its gates.

Yes. Religion is definitely not a popularity contest and we should not withhold or change Christ’s teachings to make it more appealing.

 

[hosemonkey]

This is a great example that we have received from Christ himself. Speak the truth, even if it is difficult, even if that person will turn around and run. It is not up to us to determine whether or not someone is worthy, or ready to hear the truth. The Mormon responses on this subject are nothing more than scrambling around in an effort to justify their practices of hiding what they truly believe until that person has been indoctrinated to the point where they won’t run out of the room screaming to the rest of the world. I am suspect of any religious organization that believes it must keep its true self hidden from those outside of its gates.

Well said. My fundamental objection to the “Maze of mormonism” is not the loony theology or the laughable BOM, but is instead the fundamental dishonesty of it’s recruitment and the utter failure to practice full disclosure to it’s prospective converts. Why is mormonism afraid to tell the truth? If it had anything legitimate to promote, telling the truth would not be a problem. But, because you are peddling theological snake-oil, you need to set the hook deep before you can reveal what is behind the smoke and mirrors.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

Evidently, you didn’t read the talk I linked earlier, or if you did you didn’t understand it.

I would say as to your statement that the shoe is on the other foot in many ways that anyone who reads a newspaper these days can find out. (In the British Isles, for example, and elsewhere.) But how about we change subjects, to something helpful to people?

My dear friend Parker. I did read your post and understood it. I stick by my comments. Shalom Meshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Well said. My fundamental objection to the “Maze of mormonism” is not the loony theology or the laughable BOM, but is instead the fundamental dishonesty of it’s recruitment and the utter failure to practice full disclosure to it’s prospective converts. Why is mormonism afraid to tell the truth? If it had anything legitimate to promote, telling the truth would not be a problem. But, because you are peddling theological snake-oil, you need to set the hook deep before you can reveal what is behind the smoke and mirrors.

You hit the nail right on the head! At least the Jehovahs Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists are out right honest with their “theology”, as mixed up and off center as it is.
Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

So, then, these sacred things would be shared with someone after they are baptized Mormons, correct?

RM10,

Incorrect. A person who is baptized would go through a process of learning, figuring out if they really are committed to living their religion and showing that by what they do with it, and if they desire and prepare themselves and show a level of sincerity and commitment to keeping covenants, then they can ask for the opportunity to go to the temple (at least a year after baptism if an adult). It is up to them, and if they don’t ask about that then they are still considered a member in good standing.

What if they still don’t hold those things as sacred, aren’t they still under condemnation as showing rebellious attitudes?

Yes, they would be and that’s why there is a waiting period, to see if they really want to make sincere covenants that entail commitments to God beyond their baptismal covenant.

Must be even more sinful, since they are now full fledged Mormons. So if this is the case, way does it matter if they are told these sacred things before or after having converted?

It seems to me that you answered your own question. “Even more sinful” means “they are even more condemned” (meaning a greater punishment), and Christ didn’t come into the world to condemn the world.

If they don’t accept, they are still condemned, right?

Less than if they didn’t make covenants and break them. The pains from suffering torment for sins that aren’t repented of, are not equal across the board. The greater the level of understanding, the greater the torment for having broken commandments and sinned against that light and knowledge. An example in Acts is the case of Ananias and Sapphira, who had made covenants, appeared to others to have been sincere in their covenants, but were not sincere and had deceived.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - Where in the Old or New Testament are rituals kept from someone for fear of a rebellious attitude?

Lax16,

I don’t really understand why you are bothering to continue the conversation, but here are brief answers:

Read Exodus 32:26-27, then read the preceding chapters to understand the context.

Jesus said “drink My blood and eat My flesh” and “love your enemy” and the people thought he was crazy. He didn’t hold back on giving the people the meat of Christianity. He definitely wasn’t handing out milk before meat. Why should we?

I haven’t said you should. I think both John 6 and the Lord’s Supper contain the milk of Christianity, not the meat. Peter, James and John received some of the “meat” on the Mount of Transfiguration, and they were told not to share the information.

How can a person make a decision about joining a religion if they are not made aware of the rituals?

Baptism is a “ritual”. If a person wants to move on through increasing their faith and commitment and covenant making, then they have the opportunity if they have shown they can be trusted to make and keep covenants. Then the “rituals” are more than just “rituals” for the person, and your question becomes a moot point. If they “go away”, then they are going to be just fine, having made their own personal choice about what they want for themselves in life, but being under less condemnation as to “what they knew” than if they had made covenants and broken those covenants.

But Parker, Mormons only read/listen to pro-LDS material. The info about the BoM being proven by archaelogy would have to come from your church. Missionaries would only have misconceptions because they were led to believe it was true by the Mormon church and it was obviously encouraged as a belief.
It is not wise to “guess” about such things when a person is making a decision about converting.

It just doesn’t bother me that there are guesses about Book of Mormon archeology. That is a natural thing for people to do, and ultimately it just becomes another part of a winnowing process anyway if they are going to dismiss the Book of Mormon.

No, I was talking about missionaries speaking with authority in the name of the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot be wrong. I was told this by the one hostile missionary that came to our house (the other young man was very nice).

So I completely misunderstood the context of your comment. I would say that a missionary was evidently out of line if those are the words he used, but since I wasn’t there, I am making an assumption from your comment here. I never used that kind of language as a missionary, nor do I think it would be common, but I suppose an overly zealous one could do that.

 

[KathleenGee]

“Lord, I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. Just say the word and I shall be healed.”

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

I don’t really understand why you are bothering to continue the conversation, but here are brief answers:

Read Exodus 32:26-27, then read the preceding chapters to understand the context.

Why don’t you understand why I am bothering to continue the conversation?
Thank you for the scriptural reference. I am not sure of the reference to the OT here?

I haven’t said you should. I think both John 6 and the Lord’s Supper contain the milk of Christianity, not the meat. Peter, James and John received some of the “meat” on the Mount of Transfiguration, and they were told not to share the information.

The meat would definitely be Jesus’ explicit comments on the Eucharist, don’t you think?

Baptism is a “ritual”. If a person wants to move on through increasing their faith and commitment and covenant making, then they have the opportunity if they have shown they can be trusted to make and keep covenants. Then the “rituals” are more than just “rituals” for the person, and your question becomes a moot point. If they “go away”, then they are going to be just fine, having made their own personal choice about what they want for themselves in life, but being under less condemnation as to “what they knew” than if they had made covenants and broken those covenants.

Baptism is entrance into Mormonism, isn’t it?
Who makes these decisions about being trusted to make and keep covenants in Mormonism?

It just doesn’t bother me that there are guesses about Book of Mormon archeology. That is a natural thing for people to do, and ultimately it just becomes another part of a winnowing process anyway if they are going to dismiss the Book of Mormon.

There is no guessing in Mormonism, Parker. There are no outside influences so the information must come from within the religion.

So I completely misunderstood the context of your comment. I would say that a missionary was evidently out of line if those are the words he used, but since I wasn’t there, I am making an assumption from your comment here. I never used that kind of language as a missionary, nor do I think it would be common, but I suppose an overly zealous one could do that.

I wasn’t there either when the missionary converted the young man. I was just listening to a person who was in distress (due to his recent move) speak freely about his move to Utah following his conversion to Mormonism.

 

[flyonthewall]

It has been brought up that Jesus stated:

Matthew 7
6¶Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

This is a specific example to Jesus Christ Himself keeping sacred things from those who would mock and belittle them…Of course, by the definition set forth in this thread, that makes Jesus a liar.

It is also in the scriptures:

Matthew 13
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Jesus is witholding information again. Why would he keep the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven from anyone?
Only those ready to hear were to hear what He was saying…fancy that.
I thought everything was avaialbe to everyone at anytime!..

Or maybe, like Isaiah stated:

9¶Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Teaching line upon line and precept upon precept is not “lying” but the way set forth by the Lord.

 

[flyonthewall]

Not at all. If our goal is to be Christ-like, there cannot be double standards.
Jesus was not about do as I say, not as I do. He was all about do as I do.

 

[ParkerD]

Why don’t you understand why I am bothering to continue the conversation?

It appears to me that you have learned what you have wanted to learn about Mormonism, already.

The meat would definitely be Jesus’ explicit comments on the Bread of Life, don’t you think?

No, I think that is basic and fundamental–the milk.

Baptism is entrance into Mormonism, isn’t it?

Yes–easy question.

Who makes these decisions about being trusted to make and keep covenants in Mormonism?

A person shows whether they have made the covenant of baptism truly, with all their heart, by what they do after they’re baptized. Do they keep the commandments? Do they act in loving ways toward their fellow men? Are they happy–joyful, or are they fretful? Have they learned how to study the gospel and find personal answers to their questions through scripture study and prayer, thus showing they can recognize the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost in their life? Does their countenance show light, love, faith, hope, radiance?

If they desire, they make an appointment with their bishop, they attend a preparation class at his invitation where more about the sacredness of the temple is discussed with questions and answers freely and openly part of that, and then when they desire they make another appointment and are asked questions about keeping the commandments, and about how they feel about covenant making and covenant keeping.

There is no guessing in Mormonism, Parker. There are no outside influences so the information must come from within the religion.

Mormon members are not prohibited from “guessing” about archeology. There are no definitive statements about where the details of the Book of Mormon took place.

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholics and all Christians in general, especially in these achieving oriented times…have to realize we find our worth not in what we do, but in who we are…

Our self-esteem is not found in our works or achievements or our great prayers…it is found in the reality that Christ loves each one of us, worthy or not.

 

[hosemonkey]

Well said.
All that you will get from mormons when you try to pin them down is furious tap dancing, obfuscation and changing of the subject. Carrying steam in a bucket is much easier.

 

[SteveVH]

Not at all. If our goal is to be Christ-like, there cannot be double standards.
Jesus was not about do as I say, not as I do. He was all about do as I do.

And what did He do? He humbled himself. The Creator of the Universe humbled himself and gave His life for those guilty of the worst crime imaginable; deicide. The created killed the Creator and we are all responsible. What did He do? Out of unfathomable love, rather than condemn us, the giving of His life saved us. He rose from the dead and now, so will we. We deserve nothing, or worse. He instead offers us eternal life; He desires us to be

This is not about increasing.

 

[SteveVH]

RM10,
Less than if they didn’t make covenants and break them. The pains from suffering torment for sins that aren’t repented of, are not equal across the board. The greater the level of understanding, the greater the torment for having broken commandments and sinned against that light and knowledge. An example in Acts is the case of Ananias and Sapphira, who had made covenants, appeared to others to have been sincere in their covenants, but were not sincere and had deceived.

Ananias and Sapphira were not under any obligation to give anything. They were perfectly in their right to give only as much as they wished to give. Problem was they lied about how much they gave and they lied to God. They were guily of sinning against God, not sinning against some higher knowledge they had acquired. What I find amazing is that it is members of the Mormon church that seem to be judge and jury as to whether or not one is worthy of progression to the next level of “hidden” knowledge. Knowledge didn’t suffer and die for your sins. Jesus did. It is complete surrender to Christ that matters, not the pursuit of greater levels of hidden knowledge.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Robert,

I take it that you were writing this post before I wrote my response to your other questions. It’s not about “initiated”.

If you want an analogy, would you put a first grader in a Calculus class and expect them to “get it” and be happy in that class? I don’t think they would be happy in such a class, and I think it would be unfair to expect them to “get it.”

You’re proving my point… What you’re saying is that it’s only those who are “educated” that can “handle” the truth. But with theology, it’s not about the difference between calculus and simple addition and subtraction. It’s about revealed truth. What you’re saying is that someone has to be conditioned to hear the “truth” and such a statement belies common sense. What you’re saying sounds like excuses for an esoteric theology.

I’m hearing what you’re saying. But it just doesn’t make sense if you examine it closely.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JeanMichel]

So, then, these sacred things would be shared with someone after they are baptized Mormons, correct? What if they still don’t hold those things as sacred, aren’t they still under condemnation as showing rebellious attitudes? Must be even more sinful, since they are now full fledged Mormons. So if this is the case, way does it matter if they are told these sacred things before or after having converted? If they don’t accept, they are still condemned, right?

You are all speaking past one another. Parker is talking about keeping sacred things sacred. He shares these special, personal experiences rarely with others. They are spiritual events that he has had with God. All the critics are talking about withholding information in an attempt to deceive converts.

For the life of me I don’t know why Parker continues to respond to most of your sneering, judgmental, pharisaical comments. The truly Christian responses/questions are so rare it speaks volumes about our forum.

A question for our group, why did Jesus take the apostles apart to teach other things instead of teach the multitudes all he taught the apostles? Was he concealing the real gospel from the multitudes. Also, why did he not take each apostle and all the multitude to the mount of transfiguration? Was Jesus being deceitful as you have all said of Parker here? Every time you accuse others using falsehoods it comes back to bite you in the end. It is far better to just lead with truth, patience, charity, and love; all of which are absent in every one of your comments.

 

[ParkerD]

You’re proving my point… What you’re saying is that it’s only those who are “educated” that can “handle” the truth. But with theology, it’s not about the difference between calculus and simple addition and subtraction. It’s about revealed truth. What you’re saying is that someone has to be conditioned to hear the “truth” and such a statement belies common sense. What you’re saying sounds like excuses for an esoteric theology.

I’m hearing what you’re saying. But it just doesn’t make sense if you examine it closely.

Peace,
Robert

Robert,

I can understand why it doesn’t make sense to you. A person whose only view of the next life is a “pass/fail” situation, would assume that God has laid everything out on the table and basically said, “Do such and such and you will pass–otherwise you fail.”

The LDS don’t view this life or the next life in that way, so we are coming from a totally different frame of reference. If you don’t look at this kind of subject from our frame of reference, then it is simply not going to make sense since you are “examining it closely” from your perspective which has the built-in expectation that is totally different.

The LDS view this life as a true learning experience, and God is ultimately the perfect Teacher. They are One God, so Each is a perfect Teacher, and the Savior is both the perfect Teacher and the perfect Example. We don’t view this life as “pass/fail”, and we don’t view the next life as “you passed/you failed”. Knowledge comes with effort expended, as well as with faith exercised, in our view of how this life and the next are set up for our progress as spirits and as souls.

Nor is punishment viewed as “you failed–therefore here is your everlasting punishment” and that punishment is the same for each and every person. Punishment is viewed as “you didn’t repent of specific sins which have specific consequences of punishment”, and the ultimate goal is still that spirits come unto Christ and repent of their sins and have the greatest possible glory through Christ that they are willing to receive through their repentance. Repentance means change, and change means growth and gaining knowledge, and “salvation” means the opportunity to gain more knowledge, still. And it is not “esoteric” knowledge–it is knowledge of such things as “how and why does God extend the opportunity to choose with absolutely no forced will placed upon spirits, so that they can choose for themselves and grow through making choices?”

So, again, I can understand why you think our view “doesn’t make sense”, because it doesn’t fit in with what you’ve been taught about this life or the next life. We have profoundly different views of God’s purposes in His having created this world for us.

P.S. to JeanMichel–thanks for your very insightful comments and for your thoughtfulness and kindness here expressed.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

It’s hard to trust the LDS when they withhold information and lie for their own self interest.

Its hypocritical as well because they state you should read the BOM with the holy spirit guiding you. I guess the can’t withhold the BOM. So, they don’t ask us to to pray to the holy spirit while they tell you information, they just withhold it.