LDS Revelations

[TexanKnight]

I put your sig file in the ‘quote’ section, because I want to talk about something I found in your blog; a book called 'Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest."

You can have no idea how sad I am to see it. I had no idea that it existed. I’m sorry that it does.

On one hand, it proves something I have said many, many times: never, EVER get information about any belief system from a non-member or an ex-member. I haven’t read the book, of course, and I won’t. Just the fact that an ex-Catholic is attempting to explain the Catholic faith and compare it to Mormonism makes me want to avoid it. Then, reading the reviews, I see that many Catholics are pointing out where the authors get Catholic beliefs wrong. The authors are inaccurate. They are called ‘Cafeteria Catholics’ and not ‘catechized well.’ I have no reason to doubt that. While I think that the authors made the right decision to switch religions (well, I am a Mormon, after all), I think they did themselves, AND their new belief system, a grave disservice by writing that book. I do appreciate that (again, according to the Catholic critics) they don’t seem to have been mean spirited, just wrong…but that’s bad enough.

That said, I can use this book as an example of why it’s a very bad idea to write stuff like this, or to READ stuff like this; if you want to know about Mormonism, ask a Mormon. If you want to know about Catholicism, ask a Catholic, Do not ask either one about what the other believes, because sure as you are reading this, they’ll get something wrong.

Perhaps this is one of those 'if you can’t be anything else, be a bad example?" (sigh)

But here’s the ‘on the other hand,’ and the real reason I’m not happy. I’ve been able to say, up until now, that Mormons simply don’t DO that sort of thing…and now I can’t. I can still say that the church doesn’t condone it, or publish anti-other belief system stuff. No ‘Maze of Catholicism’ out there.

But there shouldn’t be a “Catholic Roots, Mormon Harvest” out there, either.

I HAVE read a couple of books that compare Mormonism and Catholicism, but they were in the form of questions answered by a Mormon for the Mormon stuff, and by a Catholic for the Catholic perspective.

While I agree in principal, I do not totally agree with you. The reason I agree in principal is because most Catholics and most Mormons do not truly know their own faith, much less the faith of the other. However, there are former Mormons here, based on what I have read in the posts on this board, who know the LDS faith better than the actual Mormons. I have no problem asking them about the LDS faith. I tend to get more honest and accurate responses

 

[dianaiad]

The whole LDS missionary program is anti-other belief including published manuals for missionaries. The first thing a missionary has to do is destroy the “church” that the non -member believes in, if they can’t destroy that belief there is no reason for someone to convert.

And frankly after reading many current and former LDS members discussing the speakers in LDS sacrament meetings I will never ever believe that the LDS church does not preach against or poke fun at other religions. Why? Because many have described exactly such situations when they attended LDS services, men talking about their priesthood meetings stand out particularly. That and the general rule that everyone has to participate in giving talks in the LDS church. Given the variety of people you will find in any congregation/parish/ward you are bound to find someone who is not quite PC or even uncharitable in their view towards others, combine this with the everyone gives a talk protocol and you are going to get anti, what ever.

There is a very strong anti-Catholic thread that runs through the former Mormon folks, much stronger than the anti-Fundamentalist Evangelical one. I find this rather surprising since I don’t know of a single instance where a Catholic group has done the ugly protesting outside LDS events that the Fundamentalist/Evangelicals have done. They also have in common misrepresentations of Catholic teaching and beliefs, while some are the standard Protestant claims and accusations even more are specific misrepresentations used in order to bolster LDS beliefs. These people got their understanding of and attitude toward Catholicism somewhere, and the only thing that they have in common is participation in the LDS church.

I cannot, of course, deny your perceptions and your experiences. They are what they are. I can only say that, as a 'True Believing Mormon" of 65 years, I have never come across an example of this sort of anti-other religion bashing that was NOT immediately squashed.

Will new converts bash their old religion? Sure. That’s what their old religion taught them to do to Mormons and others. However, they don’t do it more than once in public, because as soon as they try it, they get told to cut that sort of thing out.

BTW, I was a missionary myself and my daughter was. I am very familiar with what missionaries are supposed to be doing, and what they DO actually do.

Your description of what LDS missionaries do is incorrect. True, that description (in my experience, anyway) applies to the Baptists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses that come to my door, and to pretty much every fundamentalist who has ever discovered that I’m a Mormon. The conversation instantly turns to 'what’s wrong with Mormonism." It took me years to find out what some of 'em actually believe when ‘they are at home,’ because when they talk to me, they define their beliefs by what they think mine are. You know “You believe this and that and we don’t.” Which, I suppose, would be fine if I actually DID believe ‘this and that,’ and in most cases, I don’t.

Which makes the whole experience fairly useless.

My missionary experiences seem to be standard: we explain what we believe. We figure that the non-member already knows what his or her beliefs are much better than we ever could; they can compare what we say to what they believe and make up their own minds.

I have never been in, nor do I remember any conversations about, LDS missionaries going in and bashing other religions before teaching ours. That’s not only useless, it’s counter productive. There’s no time.

 

[JamesCollins]

I cannot, of course, deny your perceptions and your experiences. They are what they are. I can only say that, as a 'True Believing Mormon" of 65 years, I have never come across an example of this sort of anti-other religion bashing that was NOT immediately squashed.

Will new converts bash their old religion? Sure. That’s what their old religion taught them to do to Mormons and others. However, they don’t do it more than once in public, because as soon as they try it, they get told to cut that sort of thing out.

BTW, I was a missionary myself and my daughter was. I am very familiar with what missionaries are supposed to be doing, and what they DO actually do.

Your description of what LDS missionaries do is incorrect. True, that description (in my experience, anyway) applies to the Baptists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses that come to my door, and to pretty much every fundamentalist who has ever discovered that I’m a Mormon. The conversation instantly turns to 'what’s wrong with Mormonism." It took me years to find out what some of 'em actually believe when ‘they are at home,’ because when they talk to me, they define their beliefs by what they think mine are. You know “You believe this and that and we don’t.” Which, I suppose, would be fine if I actually DID believe ‘this and that,’ and in most cases, I don’t.

Which makes the whole experience fairly useless.

My missionary experiences seem to be standard: we explain what we believe. We figure that the non-member already knows what his or her beliefs are much better than we ever could; they can compare what we say to what they believe and make up their own minds.

I have never been in, nor do I remember any conversations about, LDS missionaries going in and bashing other religions before teaching ours. That’s not only useless, it’s counter productive. There’s no time.

The LDS missionaries have come to my house for dinner and bashed Catholicism before finding out that I was Catholic.

 

[LivingWaters7]

How do we know when the LDS prophets give talks “as prophets of God”? Are General Conference talks in that category?

 

[dianaiad]

The LDS missionaries have come to my house for dinner and bashed Catholicism before finding out that I was Catholic.

If I knew who they were, I’d get their mission president involved. They are NOT supposed to do this.

 

[TexanKnight]

I cannot, of course, deny your perceptions and your experiences. They are what they are. I can only say that, as a 'True Believing Mormon" of 65 years, I have never come across an example of this sort of anti-other religion bashing that was NOT immediately squashed.

Will new converts bash their old religion? Sure. That’s what their old religion taught them to do to Mormons and others. However, they don’t do it more than once in public, because as soon as they try it, they get told to cut that sort of thing out.

BTW, I was a missionary myself and my daughter was. I am very familiar with what missionaries are supposed to be doing, and what they DO actually do.

Your description of what LDS missionaries do is incorrect. True, that description (in my experience, anyway) applies to the Baptists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses that come to my door, and to pretty much every fundamentalist who has ever discovered that I’m a Mormon. The conversation instantly turns to 'what’s wrong with Mormonism." It took me years to find out what some of 'em actually believe when ‘they are at home,’ because when they talk to me, they define their beliefs by what they think mine are. You know “You believe this and that and we don’t.” Which, I suppose, would be fine if I actually DID believe ‘this and that,’ and in most cases, I don’t.

Which makes the whole experience fairly useless.

My missionary experiences seem to be standard: we explain what we believe. We figure that the non-member already knows what his or her beliefs are much better than we ever could; they can compare what we say to what they believe and make up their own minds.

I have never been in, nor do I remember any conversations about, LDS missionaries going in and bashing other religions before teaching ours. That’s not only useless, it’s counter productive. There’s no time.

It is hard to believe you have never experienced Mormons bashing anyone. The basic thrust of missionaries is to tell them they do not attend the true Church. And I can post the quotes of your leaders, incl Joseph and Brigham that say awful things about other churches, especially the Catholic Church.

Not that this has anything to do with Revelations.

I would rather you speak about how God would let his “Prophets” speak of God Himself and give bad and confusing teachings…

 

[dianaiad]

It is hard to believe you have never experienced Mormons bashing anyone. The basic thrust of missionaries is to tell them they do not attend the true Church. And I can post the quotes of your leaders, incl Joseph and Brigham that say awful things about other churches, especially the Catholic Church.

Not that this has anything to do with Revelations.

I would rather you speak about how God would let his “Prophets” speak of God Himself and give bad and confusing teachings…

Y’know, telling someone that they 'don’t attend the true church" is not ‘bashing’ the other church, not unless that statement is followed by 'you believe this or that and those beliefs are Satan inspired,"

Many Catholics here are proud…and in general, rightfully so…of the current Catholic position of acceptance for others. However, every time a Catholic teaches a belief, or a practice, that is different from the person to whom he is talking, he is saying 'you don’t attend the true church."

But when that idea is followed by ‘this is what you should believe and do,’ not by ‘this is what you believe and do and it is heretical/evil/wrong,’ then it is not ‘bashing’ the other guy. it’s just teaching an alternative belief.

 

[TexanKnight]

Y’know, telling someone that they 'don’t attend the true church" is not ‘bashing’ the other church, not unless that statement is followed by 'you believe this or that and those beliefs are Satan inspired,"

I disagree. Strongly. I know. I was an LDS Missionary. I know how a lot of people took it. Religion is something people take seriously. You have heard, “don’t talk about religion or politics”. It is because it leads to bad feelings. Telling me the Church I have grown up in a not a true Church and yours is is very insulting to a lot of people

Many Catholics here are proud…and in general, rightfully so…of the current Catholic position of acceptance for others. However, every time a Catholic teaches a belief, or a practice, that is different from the person to whom he is talking, he is saying 'you don’t attend the true church."

Me teaching you what I believe is NOT saying what you believe is wrong. another LDS bad analogy.

and, again, you dodge. Let me try yet again…

"Not that this has anything to do with Revelations.

I would rather you speak about how God would let his “Prophets” speak of God Himself and give bad and confusing teachings…"

 

[Stephen168]

So, I was talking to a good friend of mind who is LDS. We were talking about the different things LDS prophets have said and how they contradict with earlier prophets.

He claimed that not everything a prophet says is from God. I said, “how handy…the things you like are from God, but the things they say you do NOT like, you can claim are NOT from God.”

He said “They are always acting as men unless it is something that is approved unanimously by the first presidency and the quorum of the twelve.”

This bothers me. Since when id God a democracy? So, if God says something, and the 12 do not agree, then they overrule God? I asked him to show me anywhere in the Bible where God gave a commandment or teaching that was voted on. I asked him to show me anywhere in the Bible OR THE BOOK OF MORMON where Jesus gave a command and the 12 apostles voted on it.

I remember as a Mormon sorta voting to to approve callings by “bringing our arms to the square”, but voting to approve God’s revelations seems truly odd.

Also does the quorum actually have the freedom to approve revelation when Joseph Smith would excommunicate them if they did not support him.

Christ taught the Apostles, he didn’t require their approval. And Christ never had to excommunicate real apostles.

 

[dianaiad]

Dear Texas Knight:

If you did, as a missionary, say 'you don’t attend the true church," then you shouldn’t have done that. I never did. None of my companions did. We were instructed not to refer to the beliefs of those we taught; our job was to teach them ours, not bash theirs.

I cannot, of course, tell you that your experiences were not your experiences. I can say that they were not mine, nor those of anybody I served with, or work with now.

I have a real problem with those who do this sort of thing.

However, I also have a problem with those who feel that any differing opinion regarding religion or politics (or anything else) is automatically an insult.

If I say “I believe this”…it is not, repeat, NOT, an insult to you for believing ‘that.’ If one takes offense at each and every opinion that differs from one’s own, nothing gets learned.

 

[LivingWaters7]

?

How do we know when the LDS prophets give talks “as prophets of God”? Are General Conference talks in that category?

 

[Stephen168]

The LDS missionaries have come to my house for dinner and bashed Catholicism before finding out that I was Catholic.

I’m not sure why Mormons feel a need to bash the Catholic Church when it was the ChurchofJesusChrist of FormerDaySaints that went into apostasy.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Two articles I enjoy about LDS revelations/prophets (or lack thereof) are:

Thomas S. Monson: A Seer, a Revelator, a Translator, and a Prophet

and

Silent Revelations

 

[dianaiad]

I’m not sure why Mormons feel a need to bash the Catholic Church when it was the ChurchofJesusChrist of FormerDaySaints that went into apostasy.

I don’t think that there is any Mormon group that goes by the name of “ChurchofJesusChrist of FormerDaySaints.”

…unless, of course, you deliberately chose to try to be witty, over the chance to be charitable?

As Catholics do not, as a rule, bash others, Mormons do not, as a rule, bash the Catholic church. Those of us who do, and get ‘caught,’ get told to stop it. THAT I do know.

However, like Mormons (sorry about this) Catholics are also people, and people will do stupid and wrong things, even things that they aren’t supposed to do according to their own belief systems.

And your post is a mild example of what some Catholics will do: not because they are Catholic, but because they are human.

I don’t blame Catholicism for such discourtesy, I do not believe that you have been taught to refer to others in a demeaning way by your priests and leaders.

 

[dianaiad]

Two articles I enjoy about LDS revelations/prophets (or lack thereof) are:

Thomas S. Monson: A Seer, a Revelator, a Translator, and a Prophet

and

Silent Revelations

This is interesting. True, these two articles are from a “Mormon” source. Were you aware, though, that it is inimical to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, and is, in fact, a polygamous off-shoot? It might not make any difference to you, but then again, knowing the source might help you account for any bias involved. Indeed, using this source is like, oh, using a Lutheran source to examine Catholic thought.

If this is OK with you, no problem; I’m simply pointing it out.

 

[TexanKnight]

Dear Texas Knight:

If you did, as a missionary, say 'you don’t attend the true church," then you shouldn’t have done that. I never did. None of my companions did. We were instructed not to refer to the beliefs of those we taught; our job was to teach them ours, not bash theirs

That is how we were taught to teach. When you teach that the LDS Church is THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH, what do you think you are saying? lol

.
I cannot, of course, tell you that your experiences were not your experiences. I can say that they were not mine, nor those of anybody I served with, or work with now.

Yet they were with EVERYONE I worked with and knew. I am sorry you did not believe the LDS Church is the only true Church when you were a missionary.

However, I also have a problem with those who feel that any differing opinion regarding religion or politics (or anything else) is automatically an insult.

I don’t. a lot do. I am surprised that, given your presumed experience, that you were not aware how personal religion and politics are and how discussing them cause problems sometimes

If I say “I believe this”…it is not, repeat, NOT, an insult to you for believing ‘that.’ If one takes offense at each and every opinion that differs from one’s own, nothing gets learned.

Again, saying “I believe this” is not the insult…as I have stated. It is when you say definitively that what you believe is the only right way…which Mormons do

and, again, you dodge. Let me try yet again…

"Not that this has anything to do with Revelations.

I would rather you speak about how God would let his “Prophets” speak of God Himself and give bad and confusing teachings…"

 

[LivingWaters7]

This is interesting. True, these two articles are from a “Mormon” source. Were you aware, though, that it is inimical to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, and is, in fact, a polygamous off-shoot? It might not make any difference to you, but then again, knowing the source might help you account for any bias involved. Indeed, using this source is like, oh, using a Lutheran source to examine Catholic thought.

If this is OK with you, no problem; I’m simply pointing it out.

I enjoy the two articles because of their content, and agree with the issues brought up in both of them. I am not concerned with who wrote them (nor did I claim that they were from a “Mormon” source), nor is it relevant to my agreeing with the premises brought up in said articles.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Still waiting, despite the repeated derailing off-topic posts (and the moderator stating to get to the topic of this thread).

How do we know when the LDS prophets give talks “as prophets of God”? Are General Conference talks in that category?

 

[dianaiad]

I enjoy the two articles because of their content, and agree with the issues brought up in both of them. I am not concerned with who wrote them (nor did I claim that they were from a “Mormon” source), nor is it relevant to my agreeing with the premises brought up in said articles.

I know you did not, but the sites themselves, at first glance, certainly seem to be from an LDS supported site. I would have made the same comments if someone had posted something critical of Catholicism, and the source, at first glance, SEEMED to be a ‘good’ Catholic site, but in truth, was not.

It’s simply a matter of information and notification of bias. Whether one agrees with the content of a post or not, it’s always good to know what the bias of the author is.

 

[dianaiad]

How do we know when the LDS prophets give talks “as prophets of God”? Are General Conference talks in that category?

Historically, we are told that when a prophet speaks, and says 'thus saith the Lord" when he does, he is claiming revelation. When that revelation is confirmed (again, by revelation…the Holy Ghost) by the Quorum, then it becomes scripture, or the same thing as scripture.

General Conference talks MAY be ‘the word of God,’ They ARE usually pretty good advice. How we know is the way we know anything is true, religiously: we read it, we study it, and we pray about it, and get the confirmation ourselves through the Holy Ghost.

This method of discerning religious truth is available to everybody.

…but if you are asking about ‘scripture,’ and how something gets to that level, then it is revealed to the prophet, and confirmed by revelation to the Quorum or the Twelve.

Whether something is religiously ‘true’ or not? That we each have the right, and the responsibility, to ask God about, ourselves. At least, I believe that.