LDS Temple Sealings

[iepuras]

But that just doesn’t make sense. How can someone be “sealed for all time & eternity” to two family groups. For instance a young woman is sealed to her parents, then marries and is sealed to her husband. Their children get sealed to them, grow up, marry, sealed to another family group. And on & on?

What if the father refuses his baptism after death? We’ve been told by LDS posters that in baptism for the dead the baptized gets the opportunity to reject the baptism right?

The bolded part is just sad.

Then the wife and children get assigned to another husband/father who is worthy. Welcome to Mormonism.

 

[iepuras]

Yeah but wouldn’t God, in his great mercy and compassion, override the desires of wicked Church leaders and do the right thing?

That is assuming God the Father and Heavenly Father are the same. They are not.

 

[Horton]

I’ll take a crack. I don’t have time to scrutinize all of the other responses so I apologize in advance for any duplication in my response.

In addition to a husband being sealed to a wife, a child is separately sealed to his/her parents. Children born to parents already sealed to each other are automatically born sealed to the parents. (This is known as being “born in the covenant”.) So in the Jed and Daisy scenario (assuming they were both born to LDS parents already sealed to their respective spouses) the only live sealing of which Jed and Daisy would be participants would be that of their being sealed to each other. (I’m using the term “live sealing” to distinguish between that and a vicarious sealing.)

However, if Jed and Daisy joined the LDS church after already having children, they would want three separate sealings - one to each other, one to their children, and each one being sealed as a child to his or her parents. (Living parents would need to be LDS and consent, or deceased for this to occur.)

Sue can request that her sealing to Burt be cancelled in order to be sealed to another man. Note that she could marry civilly to another man after being legally divorced and still be sealed to Burt and not be considered in an adulterous situation. A civil marriage could occur first and with the sealing occurring later.

The kids cannot be sealed to the mother alone, there would be no issue of the mother being sealed to the children without the knowledge of the father.

These sealing will only be valid in the next life if the individuals remain faithful in this life. I hope this helps.

I hope your mother is OK.

Thank you. My mother is fine, she has dementia and can’t go to doctor appointments by herself.

 

[lax16]

Not sure how the whole “Mormons get a planet” thing started, but there is no LDS ordinance/sacrament or canonized scripture that states that faithful Latter-day Saint will be given a planet as part of partaking of Eternal Life.

mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14

What does the LDS church teach about the blessings in the afterlife? Wasn’t it taught that as man progresses like God, he will have a similar kingdom as well?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Out of curiosity… how is the bolded that much different than a Catholic marriage. I mean lets take your example where Sue and Burt marry and there is no impediment to the marriage. 15 years later Burt has become abusive and Sue divorces him for what she sees as the safety of the children. Later Sue finds a nice Catholic man and wants to marry him, but her abusive ex-husband, Burt, opposes an annulment. So Sue with no other recourse absent the annulment can only civilly marry her new husband and live in sin or remain alone.

Just because Burt opposes the annulment it doesn’t follow that an annulment can’t be given. An annulment is about the validity of the marriage not what either party wants.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hands down I’ve always found the LDS teachings on “eternal families” to be the saddest, dreariest, and most hopeless view of the afterlife I’ve encountered. Three women I’ve known have married and lost a dear beloved husband with whom they had children. In all cases they were blessed to go on an marry again and have more children. In the LDS view these families are decimated in the afterlife. But only for women, in every case I mentioned, if it was a man he’d get to have ALL of his family together in the afterlife. From what I see women are nothing more than an accessory in the CK, their families are routinely obliterated in order to create a perfect little forever family for men. Though I suppose the second husbands don’t get to keep their kids since they would be sealed to the first husband, but they will be compensated for their loss by being given a brand spanking new wife at some point.

The whole “eternal family” teaching is a mess and the LDS know it.

 

[gazelam]

What does the LDS church teach about the blessings in the afterlife? Wasn’t it taught that as man progresses like God, he will have a similar kingdom as well?

As the link says, it’s speculation about what “many mansions” actually means. Do Catholics know all details regarding what it means to rule the nations? What does the magisterium say about how those who go to Heaven will receive the morning star?

Revelation 2:26-28 To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end,** I will give authority over the nations**. He will rule them with an iron rod. Like clay vessels will they be smashed, just as I received authority from my Father. And to him I will give the morning star.

The LDS church does not claim to know the meaning of all aspects of all verses of scripture.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Not sure how the whole “Mormons get a planet” thing started, but there is no LDS ordinance/sacrament or canonized scripture that states that faithful Latter-day Saint will be given a planet as part of partaking of Eternal Life.

mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14

Perhaps it started because the LDS church was teaching it?

From the Gospel Fundamentals manual:

“To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted.*”

lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng

Not necessarily related to that idea, but also interesting in that chapter:

**"Becoming like our Father in Heaven is like climbing a ladder. We must start at the bottom and climb each step until we reach the top. The Prophet Joseph Smith said that if we want to become like our Father in Heaven we must learn how He feels, thinks, and acts. When we understand these things about Him, we can then learn all other things about Him, until we know how to become as He is.

It will help us to remember that our Father in Heaven was once a man who lived on an earth, the same as we do. He became our Father in Heaven by overcoming problems, just as we have to do on this earth. However, the Prophet Joseph Smith said we will not learn everything we need to learn while in this world. It will take us a long time after we complete this life to know all the things we need to know in order to become like our Father in Heaven."**

 

[Tarquin]

Not sure how the whole “Mormons get a planet” thing started, but there is no LDS ordinance/sacrament or canonized scripture that states that faithful Latter-day Saint will be given a planet as part of partaking of Eternal Life.

It came from various Mormon Prophets and Apostles. It’s Mormon doctrinal history. Leaders all play it down now and are moving this and other once distinctive Mormon doctrines into line with traditional Christianity. I think they should do it boldly, telling members directly what they are doing.

As people search Mormon history and doctrines, it becomes clearer to them.

Spencer Kimball taught, “Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people.” (University of Utah Institute of Religion, 22 Oct. 1976) This quote is in at least 3 official church manuals.

Joseph Fielding Smith taught the same: “… we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. … We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” ( Doctrines of Salvation vol. 2, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976)

“They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done.” (Gospel Fundamentals chapter 36

Lorenzo Snow said, “these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’ (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919)

An even older, more ignored prophet, Brigham Young taught, “When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” (Journal of Discourses 18)

Apostle Orson Pratt: ““Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, … he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. …The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited.” (The Seer, 37, March 1853)

“Gospel Fundamentals” also advances the idea of exaltation with wives, worlds, and children:
“To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. … They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done.” (Gospel Fundamentals 2001)

The 1984 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide (lesson 21) (mormonthink.com/files/Lesson%2021%20Man%20Can%20Become%20Like%20God%201984.pdf) taught this clearly and straightforwardly. There are many other instances of this teaching prior to . . . whatever date it was decided to renounce the doctrines but not denounce the doctrinaire who presented them. If today’s set of leaders were seen to repudiate prior leaders, they should fear their own repudiation because of future changes. In defending past Prophets and Apostles, they are in effect, setting a precedent for their own defense in the future.

A collection of quotations both pro and con are provided at mormonthink.com/essays-becoming-like-god.htm

 

[Tarquin]

Not sure how the whole “Mormons get a planet” thing started, but there is no LDS ordinance/sacrament or canonized scripture that states that faithful Latter-day Saint will be given a planet as part of partaking of Eternal Life.

A prophet need not say “Thus saith the Lord” to proclaim the truth, nor to convert an opinion into a doctrine.

A latter day Mormon Prophet has written:

The Prophet Does Not Have to Say “Thus Saith the Lord” to Give Us Scripture.
Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us *counsel *but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.” (D&C 21:4.)
. . .
Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (JD 13:95.)

Another Mormon Prophet has said,

Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the ‘prophets, seers, and revelators’ of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy…Lucifer…wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to 'do their own thinking’…

 

[lax16]

As the link says, it’s speculation about what “many mansions” actually means. Do Catholics know all details regarding what it means to rule the nations? What does the magisterium say about how those who go to Heaven will receive the morning star?

Revelation 2:26-28 To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end,** I will give authority over the nations**. He will rule them with an iron rod. Like clay vessels will they be smashed, just as I received authority from my Father. And to him I will give the morning star.

The LDS church does not claim to know the meaning of all aspects of all verses of scripture.

The Catholic Church does not teach that the book of Revelation should be taken literally and definitely doesn’t teach anything about us ruling nations upon our death.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches about heaven as stated in the CCC:

II. HEAVEN

*1023 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they “see him as he is,” face to face:598

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.599
1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called “heaven.” Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live "in Christ,"600 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.601

For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.602
1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has “opened” heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the Father’s house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him."603

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man’s immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this contemplation of God in his heavenly glory “the beatific vision”:

How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God, to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God’s friends.604
1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God’s will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."605*

 

[lax16]

Perhaps it started because the LDS church was teaching it?

From the Gospel Fundamentals manual:

“To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on*, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted.”

lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng

Thanks LW. I thought it was LDS belief and teaching!

 

[Horton]

**But that just doesn’t make sense. How can someone be “sealed for all time & eternity” to two family groups. For instance a young woman is sealed to her parents, then marries and is sealed to her husband. Their children get sealed to them, grow up, marry, sealed to another family group. And on & on? **

What if the father refuses his baptism after death? We’ve been told by LDS posters that in baptism for the dead the baptized gets the opportunity to reject the baptism right?

snip.

Bolding mine. After reading the posters who explained the LDS afterlife theory, this makes even less sense. If a woman is sealed to her father & mother, and then sealed to her husband & kids, and the husband is sealed to his father & mother and so on then what or who determines what world/mansion/planet/kingdom they go to.

I get there may be much that is not understood just as the Catholic Church doesn’t definitively say what heaven is, but it sounds as though JS or other early LDS leaders wanted a “selling point” so to speak to get converts and this concept grew into an unsustainable mess.

Then the wife and children get assigned to another husband/father who is worthy. Welcome to Mormonism.

How does a couple in real life deal with this? The non LDS member of the couple probably doesn’t give it much thought, especially if he/she is a practicing Christian. If the children are not raised LDS and don’t seal their mother to them, then according to mom’s belief she will be without her earthly family for all eternity. I wonder if many women have left the LDS when they realize this fact.

Hands down I’ve always found the LDS teachings on “eternal families” to be the saddest, dreariest, and most hopeless view of the afterlife I’ve encountered. Three women I’ve known have married and lost a dear beloved husband with whom they had children. In all cases they were blessed to go on an marry again and have more children. In the LDS view these families are decimated in the afterlife. But only for women, in every case I mentioned, if it was a man he’d get to have ALL of his family together in the afterlife. From what I see women are nothing more than an accessory in the CK, their families are routinely obliterated in order to create a perfect little forever family for men. Though I suppose the second husbands don’t get to keep their kids since they would be sealed to the first husband, but they will be compensated for their loss by being given a brand spanking new wife at some point.

The whole “eternal family” teaching is a mess and the LDS know it.

This is so sad. I know this particular belief of the LDS is false but it hurts my heart that so many women and family suffer anguish over this concept of heaven.

 

[iepuras]

How does a couple in real life deal with this? The non LDS member of the couple probably doesn’t give it much thought, especially if he/she is a practicing Christian. If the children are not raised LDS and don’t seal their mother to them, then according to mom’s belief she will be without her earthly family for all eternity. I wonder if many women have left the LDS when they realize this fact.

They put it on their mental shelf. If they think about it too much, it causes doubt which can become problematic in the LDS mind. So it goes on the mental shelf to be dealt with later. They figure that whatever happens after death, they will be happy with it.

This is so sad. I know this particular belief of the LDS is false but it hurts my heart that so many women and family suffer anguish over this concept of heaven.

I did, and that is ultimately why I was able to figure it out and leave. It hurt too much to think I would be assigned to be the wife of some man. I can take care of myself and it never sat well with me that my own eternal salvation/exaltation was dependent on any man other than Jesus Christ.

 

[Horton]

:hug1::hug1::hug1:

They put it on their mental shelf. If they think about it too much, it causes doubt which can become problematic in the LDS mind. So it goes on the mental shelf to be dealt with later. They figure that whatever happens after death, they will be happy with it.

I did, and that is ultimately why I was able to figure it out and leave. It hurt too much to think I would be assigned to be the wife of some man. I can take care of myself and it never sat well with me that my own eternal salvation/exaltation was dependent on any man other than Jesus Christ.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Bolding mine. After reading the posters who explained the LDS afterlife theory, this makes even less sense. If a woman is sealed to her father & mother, and then sealed to her husband & kids, and the husband is sealed to his father & mother and so on then what or who determines what world/mansion/planet/kingdom they go to.

I get there may be much that is not understood just as the Catholic Church doesn’t definitively say what heaven is, but it sounds as though JS or other early LDS leaders wanted a “selling point” so to speak to get converts and this concept grew into an unsustainable mess.

Indeed. This is what we all come to realize is the reality of the eternal families idea of Mormonism. The eternal family is commonly envisioned as an eternal nuclear family unit, with a mother, father, and child(ren). However, the mother and family are presumably also sealed to their own nuclear families, and their children will presumably go off and start their own eternal nuclear family. So…what exactly is this heaven that is being envisioned with eternal families?

The fact is, in Catholicism, all in Heaven are sealed to Christ as one Family. We don’t suddenly forget our earthly relationships or any of the other caricatures some Mormons may claim about our beliefs. Indeed, our relationships with our families, as well as all in Heaven, are perfected, as we learn to love as God loves, as we are in His eternal presence.

 

[veilofveronica]

Not sure how the whole “Mormons get a planet” thing started, but there is no LDS ordinance/sacrament or canonized scripture that states that faithful Latter-day Saint will be given a planet as part of partaking of Eternal Life.

mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14

Not literally a planet is taught, perhaps, but the LDS Church does teach that there is an infinite number of “Worlds”, each with their own Heavenly Father and Mother and population, and that faithful, sealed LDS can become as God is one day and have spirit children into the eternities…so having their own planet or domain is implied.

 

[veilofveronica]

** Hi there, I was Mormon for almost a year and just returned home to the Catholic Church this past February…I hope I can help as I asked many of these questions**

This is a concept that never made a lot of sense to me. I get the warm fuzzy feelings it give families but as a logistical matter, how does this work. I’m going to lay out some scenarios of how I think it may go.

1. You have Jed Parker marry Daisy Sweet. Both were born to practicing LDS families and were each sealed to their parents for all time & eternity. Jed & Daisy get married and sealed in the temple for all time and eternity. Q - 1 What happens to the seal of al time & eternity done with their family of origin?

-*** I asked about that. What I was told is that part of the purpose of sealings is to permanently seal together the entire family of God in one lineage. That’s why Mormons place so much importance on genealogy…to do temple ordinances for the dead so that they can be “raised up” with us.***

Fifteen years down the line it comes to light that the man one of the daughters married turns out to be not such a good guy, abusive to her and to the children. The safest course of action is to separate/divorce. After the divorce the daughter, we’ll call her Sue, finds a good LDS man, falls in love with him and they want to marry. But alas ex-husband (call him Burt) is against the marriage and refuses to seek a temple divorce. While Sue can marry the good guy and have a good life on earth with him, once she dies she has to go back to Burt. Q-2 What is the solution to this situation?

*** From what I know…Sue can pursue a cancellation of sealing (aka temple divorce) on her own. If it’s not granted for whatever reason, she can remarry but not be sealed again. Supposedly, in the afterlife she will have a choice what man to be sealed to if her original sealed husband doesn’t live up to his covenants, which he wouldn’t do if he was abusive.***

Sue has a cousin also born LDS to goes of to a non LDS college a long way from Utah. She meets the man of her dream but he isn’t LDS. He is a practicing Christian (denomination is irrelevant) and has no desire to convert to the LDS faith. They go on to have three kids. As dad isn’t LDS the family can’t be sealed for all time & eternity. Q-3 Can the kids be sealed to the mother alone? What if dad opposes the kids taking part in any of the LDS rituals and feels strongly they should be raised in his faith?

***Nope, they can’t be sealed to just Mom…and that was one of the things that broke my heart when I was Mormon, as my spouse had no desire whatsoever to convert. I was told it would “Take care of itself” in the millenium and in heaven, but hearing about eternal families and knowing mine was not viewed as one was very tough, indeed.

The LDS Church strongly encourages people to marry within the faith. If they don’t, and one parent opposes it, the Mormon party will be under pressure to make sure their child is raised LDS. I went through that, too. My daughter is baptized Catholic, my husband very devout, but he was ok with her going to church with me. The LDS church very nicely says it is the child’s “choice” when they turn eight whether or not to be baptized, but at least one parent has to consent and they prefer both to, they don’t want “family disharmony” yet will cause guilt to creep in if you don’t raise your child LDS which can drive a huge wedge in the family. There will be pressure to convert the spouse.

Also…if a husband or wife wants to convert and is married to a non Mormon, you need their permission before you can be baptized or get your Endowments. They say it is so not to cause family disharmony, but it really can erupt anyway. I’m just lucky my husband is so patient and understanding…he knew I’d find my way back.

I***