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why_me
Guest
And here is another link from the lds point of view:
jefflindsay.com/BOMIntro.shtml#5b
But you guys can keep on speculating.
jefflindsay.com/BOMIntro.shtml#5b
But you guys can keep on speculating.
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why_me
Guest
Sandra and Jerald Tanner (he died) are and were born again christians dedicated to destroying the lds church. I would not call them unbiased. However, you can read this:
lightplanet.com/mormons/response/bom/Witnesses_Roper.htm
Whatever the Tanners may have written always can be responded to. They have proved nothing at all.
W
wmscott
Guest
Sorry for the cut and paste but this is mind blowing, this is most of the stuff that blows me away:Never mind, I did some research and found out what I needed to know. Boy am I amazed at the stuff they believe and how bizarre it is.
MORMONS WONâT TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.
That there is salvation only in their church - all others are wrong.
That those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from âevilâ. This âevilâ includes non- Mormons like you.
About their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non-Christians immediately.
That they think âfamiliar spiritsâ are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a âfamiliar spiritâ. Leviticus 19;31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs.
That women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity.
That they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.
That they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be âHeavenly Fatherâ over their own planet!
That you were once a spirit-child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth.
That the Virgin Mary really wasnât a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ.
That they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.
That the âheavenly fatherâ they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all.
That Jesus was really Luciferâs brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a âheavenly councilâ vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!
That there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently âforgetâ this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ.
That all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official âMormon Doctrineâ statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.
That the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!
That their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.
That that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the âspirit worldâ, a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10- 12.)
That there are many accounts of Joseph Smithâs first vision besides the one they present to you, and all are different.
That they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they havenât built the temple Heâs supposed to return to, because they donât own the property. (It is owned by the âTemple Lot Mormonsâ who have plans o of their own, and wonât let the Salt Lake City group buy it).
That they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.
That Jesusâ death on the cross only partially saves the believer.
That they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.
That they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.
That their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts a prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).
That their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third.
That Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well!
Is this stuff TRUE
A
AMDGtoo
Guest
UmâSince we are now bringing up the Tanners, werenât they LDS (Sandra being a descendant of Brigham Young and Jerald being a historical researcher into the beginnings of the LDS) before they were excommunicated by the LDS Church?
J
Jerusha
Guest
All but that one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Strait_of_belle_isle.pngThat the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!
Is this stuff TRUE
The BOM has appeared to many to be a heavily fictionalized account of the Viking invasion of North America.
As such, this makes the LDS church, developed from the fictional âNephiteâ church, a proto-Nazi organization. Take a look at the CONTENT of the book.
As for Whitmerâs account, I wonder how old and widespread the expression âtalking out of your hatâ for making up a fantastic lie is.
C
Carl_Nicholas
Guest
Hi why me,
Your response of David Whitmer ( joking or something ) seems to me, an insulting proposition due to the seriousness of the topic.
The " looking in a hat " would go to the CORE of the faith and belief system on wich it was built.
Among many things, If we can not even get past the original " translation" process, then in my very respectfull and humble opinion, how can we proceed with the next several levels of inquisition to determine the validity and soundness of where the Mormon belief in grounded.
The very foundation ( brick # 1 , the " translation " ) to me, does not hold water.
I hope I have not come across " bashing " It is not my intention,
I am just trying to understand where and why my brethran are coming from.
Sincerly,
Carl
God bless
J
Jerusha
Guest
I would call Whitmerâs statement a veiled sarcasm. I suspect he and his families had knowlege of death threats against them if they revealed too much. It is similar with the other witnesses.
J
Jerusha
Guest
blog.villagehatshop.com/2008/03/hat-metaphors-a.html
Whitmer died in 1878-- he may have originated the saying, then.
A
AMDGtoo
Guest
Was it that or more like they werenât asked and probably hoped that folks would simply âforgetâ and not accuse them of intentionally âfibbingâ. I know that I donât know many people who would impugn their own honorâtoo embarrassing and there may be legal problems. And then thereâs the LDS âblood atonementâ thing (that I understand has now fallen out of practice.)
J
Jerusha
Guest
Not necessarily out of practice. Just used rarely, and only by fringy nuts. Generally, just gotten more sophisticated-- like emotional abuse with the intent of driving people to suicide.
They like people to forget things, part of the emotional abuse. That is why they like the expression âForgive and forgetâ From both âDon Quixoteâ and âKing Learâ-- Cervantes and Shakespeare were contemporaries, so must have been quite popular in those times.
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why_me
Guest
Whitmerâs statement about the hat was made in 1875âŚlong after the event. Now of course it could be trueâŚbut I donât think that we have enough information. If you read my links you will see that the process was complicated and not so simple. Also, Whitmer left the church but did not deny his testimony. No death threats just a fact. If I am not mistaken, he affirmed what he saw on his deathbed.
64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:TqVjqFcf48AJ:www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses_4.pdf+david+whitmer&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=firefox
A few days before he died an article in the Chicago Tribune
read:
David Whitmer, the last one of the three witnesses
to the truth of the Book of Mormon, is now in a
dying condition at his home in Richmond. Last
evening he called the family and friends to his
bedside, and bore his testimony to the truth of the
Book of Mormon and the Bible.
10
Following his death the Richmond Conservator wrote:
On Sunday evening before his death he called the
family and his attending physician, Dr. George W.
Buchanan, to his bedside and said, âDoctor do you
consider that I am in my right mind?â to which
the Doctor replied, âYes, you are in your right
mind, I have just had a conversation with you.â He
then addressed himself to all present and said: âI
want to give my dying testimony. You must be
faithful in Christ. I want to say to you all that the
Bible and the record of the Nephites, (The Book
of Mormon) are true, so you can say that you have
heard me bear my testimony on my death bedâŚ
On Monday morning he again called those present
to his bedside, and told them that he had seen
another vision which reconfirmed the divinity of
the âBook of Mormon,â and said that he had seen
Christ in the fullness of his glory and majesty,
sitting upon his great white throne in heaven
waiting to receive his children.
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why_me
Guest
Read the link that I have provided about David Whitmer. It doesnât seem likely it is as you say. The strength of the lds faith just does not depend on Joseph Smith but also on the witnesses. The witnesses give the critics a huge headache. Most left the church during the time of JS. They would have good reasons to deny what they saw. But they didnât. Why? who knows, except what they saw is what they saw. In the end, it all comes down to faith.
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why_me
Guest
I gave a couple of links. The translation process was not that simple. David referred to a hat but that was many years later. However, he never denied his testimony as can be seen from the link I provided previously. The hat doesnât bother me. I think that it is interesting and intrigueing. Why would JS write a book and then stick his head in a hat and automatic write a book when he had a manuscript, if he were a fraud. Now of course, his wife testified that he had no manuscript or paper. And so, how to explain it?
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
funny that the link you provided has a raw IP address (64.233.183.104) with no doman name assocated nor does it resolve to any published owner of record. Why is it that Mormonâs always seem to rely on dubious pedigree, accountability, tracability and credibility in its witnesses? Or perhaps this IP address is attended to by heavenly angels?
James
J
J_C
Guest
sorry i have not read thru this thread so if my post is out of context forgive me.
whyme you seem to be taking Whitmer as boht reliably truthful and as possible liar.
If he lied about the hat story, and if you assume that it was a lie, or at laeast a fun fabrication, then why would you not also take his testimony as to the nephitic stories with a similar grain of salt?
now if he was telling the truth about the hat, then many things come into question, including the official versions of how the trasnlation came to be.
And if he was having visions on his death bed, then it must also be questioned whether he was in his âright mind.â
whyme you seem to be taking Whitmer as boht reliably truthful and as possible liar.
If he lied about the hat story, and if you assume that it was a lie, or at laeast a fun fabrication, then why would you not also take his testimony as to the nephitic stories with a similar grain of salt?
now if he was telling the truth about the hat, then many things come into question, including the official versions of how the trasnlation came to be.
And if he was having visions on his death bed, then it must also be questioned whether he was in his âright mind.â
J
J_C
Guest
the most plausible explaination is that he was empire building. The little boy revelater also became the living prophet, and profiteer. It would be more plausible if he never came into leadership, but rather another became the leader and polygamizer, while the boy prophet remained a thinker and seer only, living in poverty.
The witnesses are not aproblem for me at all. They are all from a small group, several of them related to one another, of insiders to this new empire. Moreoever there is little continuity because most of them either left the sect or were excommunicated, unlke the Apostles of Jesus, only one of whom disgraced himself, the rest of whom spread out across the world to convert the pagans. Those were true witnesses to Christ. The mormon witnesses are not credible inany sense.
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why_me
Guest
www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Book_of_Mormon_Witnesses_4.pdffunny that the link you provided has a raw IP address (64.233.183.104) with no doman name assocated nor does it resolve to any published owner of record. Why is it that Mormonâs always seem to rely on dubious pedigree, accountability, tracability and credibility in its witnesses? Or perhaps this IP address is attended to by heavenly angels?
James
Here it is in Pdf.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Maybe they felt threatened or at personal risk for breaking oaths of silence or were given some financial incentive to remain silent about it all? How large was the Mormon âChurchâ at the time they left and what were its financial assets? There is also the possibility of demonic influence and illusion. This would be similar to what many of us believe Mohammad got into with the Jinn (a demon he admits was always after him) rather than the angel Gabriel as he attests in the cave called Hira, in the Mount An-Nur. Mohammad often also had revelations during the time he went into epileptic convulsions.
What do we know about Joseph Smith the man? Well he certainly shared Mohammedâs fondness for young girls and many wives. According to historian Todd Compton, in the group of Smithâs 33 well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smithâs own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group aged fifty-one to sixty.
I guess you can tell I donât buy a single word of Mormonism and consider them to be an utterly false religion with little in common with Christianity other than a shared common moral code.
James
J
J_C
Guest
And i suggest that if it is plausible that he was joking about the hat, he was also joking on his deathbed.
do you see the connection?
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