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majick275
Guest
I’ll wait for the LDS to post here first but I do have some thoughts on this.
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amgid
Guest
Articles of Faith 1:
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
D&C 130:
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
JS-H 1:
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other–This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
amgid
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paul_barlow
Guest
catholic-rcia said:
you would like me to comment on an anti mormon site? no thanks maybe we should visit ian paisleys web site and use his views to examine your views. neither are worthwhile or productive. if you have a honest question please ask it. if you want to just bash us please expect a simular response.
yours paul
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majick275
Guest
I think the LDS view of the nature of God has changed over time.
Originally JS seems to have had a rather Orthodox view. The testimony of the three witnesses still published in the BoM today seems to be the same as the Catholic position. This is found throughout the BoM and even in parts of the D&C. (that being that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God)
When the lectures on faith were part of the D&C Mormonism taught that there were two Gods, The Father and the Son. (the holy ghost was said to be their “shared mind”)
Then came the current teaching that there are three Gods but one “godhead” and that they are one in PURPOSE. Not consubstantial, not co-equal. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ having a literal parent/child relationship and the Holy Ghost being relatively undefined. The Father and son both having bodies of flesh and bone, the Holy Ghost being a personage of Spirit. That would indicate (based on LDS tachings) that The Father and the Son are both resurected beings and the Holy Ghost is not. (This is not clearly defined in LDS doctrine but appears to be the general perception)
Where the biggest difference seems to lie is when eternal progression comes in. The LDS teaching is that God was once a man and that man may become a God. Without diverting off into EO style deification, etc. What I disagree with here is this version of the actual nature of both man and God. This would have us believe that man and God are the same “category” of being with God just being the “adult” and humans “embryonic”. That we are literal offspring of heavenly parents (including a heavenly mother) rather than creations of God.
The Catholic view is that God has always been God, more specifically The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always existed as consubstantial, co-equal persons. Further, while man may partake of Gods divine nature by being in his presence and sharing the beatific vision, man may never become God.
We do not believe that God literally fathered Jesus in the human sense and we believe that he did not exist before Jesus. They have always been the one God. We also believe that God is the only God anywhere ever. There cannot have been nor can there ever be other Gods anywhere. Not just talking about this world or for us but as an absolute.
I also disagree with the lack of worship of the Holy Spirit in the LDS church. We pray TO all three. The LDS pray only to father and then only in the name of Jesus. The Holy Ghost isn’t invoked except in baptism. They are all God and we should pray to all three. (I believe)
Originally JS seems to have had a rather Orthodox view. The testimony of the three witnesses still published in the BoM today seems to be the same as the Catholic position. This is found throughout the BoM and even in parts of the D&C. (that being that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God)
When the lectures on faith were part of the D&C Mormonism taught that there were two Gods, The Father and the Son. (the holy ghost was said to be their “shared mind”)
Then came the current teaching that there are three Gods but one “godhead” and that they are one in PURPOSE. Not consubstantial, not co-equal. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ having a literal parent/child relationship and the Holy Ghost being relatively undefined. The Father and son both having bodies of flesh and bone, the Holy Ghost being a personage of Spirit. That would indicate (based on LDS tachings) that The Father and the Son are both resurected beings and the Holy Ghost is not. (This is not clearly defined in LDS doctrine but appears to be the general perception)
Where the biggest difference seems to lie is when eternal progression comes in. The LDS teaching is that God was once a man and that man may become a God. Without diverting off into EO style deification, etc. What I disagree with here is this version of the actual nature of both man and God. This would have us believe that man and God are the same “category” of being with God just being the “adult” and humans “embryonic”. That we are literal offspring of heavenly parents (including a heavenly mother) rather than creations of God.
The Catholic view is that God has always been God, more specifically The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always existed as consubstantial, co-equal persons. Further, while man may partake of Gods divine nature by being in his presence and sharing the beatific vision, man may never become God.
We do not believe that God literally fathered Jesus in the human sense and we believe that he did not exist before Jesus. They have always been the one God. We also believe that God is the only God anywhere ever. There cannot have been nor can there ever be other Gods anywhere. Not just talking about this world or for us but as an absolute.
I also disagree with the lack of worship of the Holy Spirit in the LDS church. We pray TO all three. The LDS pray only to father and then only in the name of Jesus. The Holy Ghost isn’t invoked except in baptism. They are all God and we should pray to all three. (I believe)
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DeeAnn
Guest
catholic-rcia said:
Ok, I listened to about 4 minutes of this and was really confused. What does Herbert Armstrong and the World Wide Church of God got to do with the topic?
DeeAnn
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catholic-rcia
Guest
paul barlow:
You can surf the site, or not. I am zeroing in on the video “Called to be Free”
This video is one the most compelling testimonies that I can attribute to the Holy Spirit moving in the souls of a Cult. This is not an anti Mormon site, this is a pro site only for Christ. They had everything to loose financially and yet they choose to listen to the Holy Spirit and act upon it. The whole leadership of this Church were afraid to say how they were feeling about the nature of God because they were afraid that they would loose status and friends. But the spirit brought them together and they began to really speak to each other. They found a very common bond between them. They were all coming to the same revelation about the Nature of God. This story is miraculous, and it needs to be told. The transformation that took place with this Worldwide Church of God is the same that has taken place within me. Christ set them free, those who would listen to their hearts and search. Christ has set me free. Seeing others, listening to others speak about the glory of God and how He has changed their lives through Christ is Beautiful. If you notice they all have placed Christ first in their lives, as new Christians they have given every ounce of their old pursuit, their old self to Christ, handed it up to Him knowing that only He has the strength to place these things where they truly belong and that He nailed these things all to the Cross. This Video shows true transformation, you cannot deny it. What they have discovered is what all Christians have come to discover, nothing new to Christ’s Church, just new to each soul such as mine who goes through it. The Mass itself has been the driving force over the last 2000 years that has brought these truths into the hear and now in order for all to have a chance at being with their Creator forever. God is our Creator, He is our desire, He is our Love, He is our everything. The Nature of God, what can I say about it that would ad to what this video says about it. “Nothing at all”
DeeAnn:
DeeAnn you need to watch the whole Video, It is free to watch in its entirety from the site I gave. Even if you just watch the small trailor you will understand why I was moved to place it on this posting. You would not be asking me the question you asked if you watched. This video shows one of the most honest and compelling of conversions that you will ever witness. They are not Catholics, but they have found Christ. They used Catholic Doctrine to find Him. They are now part of the One True Vine, brothers and sisters within the One Body of Christ. His Church on earth and in heaven.
yours paul
You can surf the site, or not. I am zeroing in on the video “Called to be Free”
This video is one the most compelling testimonies that I can attribute to the Holy Spirit moving in the souls of a Cult. This is not an anti Mormon site, this is a pro site only for Christ. They had everything to loose financially and yet they choose to listen to the Holy Spirit and act upon it. The whole leadership of this Church were afraid to say how they were feeling about the nature of God because they were afraid that they would loose status and friends. But the spirit brought them together and they began to really speak to each other. They found a very common bond between them. They were all coming to the same revelation about the Nature of God. This story is miraculous, and it needs to be told. The transformation that took place with this Worldwide Church of God is the same that has taken place within me. Christ set them free, those who would listen to their hearts and search. Christ has set me free. Seeing others, listening to others speak about the glory of God and how He has changed their lives through Christ is Beautiful. If you notice they all have placed Christ first in their lives, as new Christians they have given every ounce of their old pursuit, their old self to Christ, handed it up to Him knowing that only He has the strength to place these things where they truly belong and that He nailed these things all to the Cross. This Video shows true transformation, you cannot deny it. What they have discovered is what all Christians have come to discover, nothing new to Christ’s Church, just new to each soul such as mine who goes through it. The Mass itself has been the driving force over the last 2000 years that has brought these truths into the hear and now in order for all to have a chance at being with their Creator forever. God is our Creator, He is our desire, He is our Love, He is our everything. The Nature of God, what can I say about it that would ad to what this video says about it. “Nothing at all”
DeeAnn
DeeAnn you need to watch the whole Video, It is free to watch in its entirety from the site I gave. Even if you just watch the small trailor you will understand why I was moved to place it on this posting. You would not be asking me the question you asked if you watched. This video shows one of the most honest and compelling of conversions that you will ever witness. They are not Catholics, but they have found Christ. They used Catholic Doctrine to find Him. They are now part of the One True Vine, brothers and sisters within the One Body of Christ. His Church on earth and in heaven.
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Chris-WA
Guest
Just watched the 4 minute video. The one thing I completely agreed with was the statement that having a false understanding of the true nature of God affects everything else in a religion. For Latter-Day Saints, the belief that God was once a man who progressed to godhood has many far-reaching implications in creating doctrinal error. Though in modern times they will not admit to this particular teaching about God, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young definitely believed it and taught it from their position as “prophet, seer, and revelator” of the church.
Believing that God was once a man who progressed to godhood has many erroneous implications:
Believing that God was once a man who progressed to godhood has many erroneous implications:
- God had a beginning.
- God had parents.
- God had a god above Him.
- God has a wife who is a goddess, and together they create spirit children.
- God is only the creator of this universe.
- God is still increasing in intelligence and glory.
- Men can also progress like God did and become gods themselves.
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majick275
Guest
I think MOST mormons believe this and it IS still taught in LDS churches today. Adam-God doctrine that was taught by BY is what has been denounced by modern LDS prophets.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
If you can’t see the whole thing on your computer I would gladly send you one. Any one here. Free! well maybe 4 or 5.
“These serious differences cannot be glossed over when discussing religion with LDS”
Yes, and when a Mormon Missionary is attempting to convert another. This is always wrong.
You should have nothing to hide when speaking about God. Nothing.
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paul_barlow
Guest
- God had a beginning.
- God had parents.
- God had a god above Him.
- God has a wife who is a goddess, and together they create spirit children.
- God is only the creator of this universe.
- God is still increasing in intelligence and glory.
- Men can also progress like God did and become gods themselves.
please tell me were we have denied this doctrine.
sorry friends this is the nature of god.
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majick275
Guest
I am interested in seeing amgids take on your post. I disagree with you on that being the nature of God. I find that belief to be blasphemous. I also think it goes hand in hand with the pride induced temptation to “be as Gods” that Satan started up in the garden and still peddles today.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Lucifer failed to be loyal to the one and only God and became Satan, which means “adversary/destroyer.” Likewise, Adam and Eve also believed and obeyed Satan’s lie instead of God.
So it was left to Jesus Christ, the God of the Old Testament, who had lived forever as the Word (John 1 chapter1) to empty Himself of His divine power and become sin for the sins of mankind through His sufferings and death. (**Isaiah 53:5) **Since His death was worth more than the lives of all human beings combined, it was more than sufficient to pay for the sins of the world.
So it was left to Jesus Christ, the God of the Old Testament, who had lived forever as the Word (John 1 chapter1) to empty Himself of His divine power and become sin for the sins of mankind through His sufferings and death. (**Isaiah 53:5) **Since His death was worth more than the lives of all human beings combined, it was more than sufficient to pay for the sins of the world.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
He does still have power here on earth, over those who do not turn to Christ in all things. Mainly their gratitude and confessions in order to be free enough to tell others about our Savior in order for them to also be set free. But thank God Satan has already been defeated by way of the Cross. I see it like a game that has four quarters of playing time. We are in this game, this battle, but we as Christians already know the final score. Jesus has redeemed us.
Satan, the father of lies can try and divert as many as he can, a diversion from the mission of Christ out of envy and jealousy. But our Shepard is a pretty good Shepard, he can always spot a lost lamb tangled in a fence. Satans best tool is pride, our best hope is Christ, he being the opposite of pride because it has no power over God. None. If we are to imitate Christ we need to empty ourselves of pride, and when we can’t ask to be forgiven.
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LittleDeb
Guest
paul barlow said:
This is the list I ask devout LDS folks all the time. All but one denied it. Please, please give references so I can finally research LDS documents to finally know what is actual authentic doctrine. This has been such a sticking point since so many deny this teaching.
I would agree with a previous poster. To a Catholic this is the height of blasphemy. I truly want to understand how this belief could be possible as it goes against every single teaching in the Catholic Church. There is only one reason I want to understand. That one LDS who did not deny these teachings just happens to be my best friend.
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Chris-WA
Guest
paul barlow:
“He [God] is our Father–the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being. It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being;” (Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333)
“The Gods who dwell in the Heaven…have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state…they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.” (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)
“You and I–what helpless creatures are we! Such limited power we have, and how little can we control the wind and the waves and the storms! We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were stated by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: ‘As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.’” (President Spencer W. Kimball in “Our Great Potential” from the April 1977 Priesthood Session of General Conference)
Even President Hinkley himself taught it:On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62) and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1) Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this. Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father. He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe. He is the greatest of all and will always be so. But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom. (Conference Report, Oct. 1994).But here is what President Hinkley says now in an interview with a San Francisco newspaper:Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?
A: I wouldn’t say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’’ Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else.
And an an interview with Time magazine:Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet.
A: Yeah
Q: … about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.
So Paul, now you have to decide for yourself whether you are going to agree with what your church taught in the past or is teaching now. President Hinkley has taught both.
Paul, I agree with you that these things are what your church at least taught in the past: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!..It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God…yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible…” (from Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and History of the Church, 6:302-17)
“He [God] is our Father–the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being. It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being;” (Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333)
“The Gods who dwell in the Heaven…have been redeemed from the grave in a world which existed before the foundations of this earth were laid. They and the Heavenly body which they now inhabit were once in a fallen state…they were exalted also, from fallen men to Celestial Gods to inhabit their Heaven forever and ever.” (Apostle Orson Pratt in The Seer, page 23)
“You and I–what helpless creatures are we! Such limited power we have, and how little can we control the wind and the waves and the storms! We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were stated by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: ‘As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.’” (President Spencer W. Kimball in “Our Great Potential” from the April 1977 Priesthood Session of General Conference)
Even President Hinkley himself taught it:On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62) and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1) Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this. Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father. He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe. He is the greatest of all and will always be so. But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom. (Conference Report, Oct. 1994).But here is what President Hinkley says now in an interview with a San Francisco newspaper:Q: There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?
A: I wouldn’t say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’’ Now that’s more of a couplet than anything else.
And an an interview with Time magazine:Q: Just another related question that comes up is the statements in the King Follet discourse by the Prophet.
A: Yeah
Q: … about that, God the Father was once a man as we were. This is something that Christian writers are always addressing. Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?
A: I don’t know that we teach it. I don’t know that we emphasize it. I haven’t heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don’t know. I don’t know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don’t know a lot about it and I don’t know that others know a lot about it.
So Paul, now you have to decide for yourself whether you are going to agree with what your church taught in the past or is teaching now. President Hinkley has taught both.
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Socrates
Guest
In my experience, this hasn’t been denied so much as it has been dismissed as “speculation.” It seems very much that dismissing it as speculation is intended to diminish the importance of such beliefs, but it seems evident that it’s more than just speculation.
In my mind, “speculation” is something that one is at liberty to propose theoretically, but others in the faith are not bound to believe. Calling it just speculation seems to just be a dodge like the ones performed by President Hinkley in the above post.
If that’s what mormons believe about the nature of God then why isn’t Hinkley proudly standing up for it? If it’s not, why isn’t he dismissing it as false? It doesn’t seem like it should be so foggy for a group claiming access to honest to God prophets.
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Tmaque
Guest
paul barlow said:
Please reconcile #4 with the rest of your points. If your God created the universe then where was his beginning? Did he exist in a different universe before creating this one?
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LittleDeb
Guest
I can answer this as yes, they believe there are many universes. My best friend, a devout LDS, uses words common in astronomy and science fiction. Galaxy, planets and stars seem very important.
The part that has been confusing to me is based on this. While I think space travel is a wonderful development, I think I look at it very differently. I get the idea that since the LDS believe God exists within time and space that they believe He is within some sort of physical reach. Since the teaching is that He lives on a planet near the star of Kolob, that this could be a physically reachable place.
The part I question is based entirely on this problem. If their god has another god who has another god above him, how far back in their history do I have to go to reach the One, omnipotent, omniscent, omnipresent God that I worship? This has never been explained.
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LittleDeb
Guest
While I totally agree with you that President Hinkley should be standing up and proclaiming this belief proudly if that is what they believe, I would hesitate to use the secular media you quoted. I don’t trust the reliability of those two sources any further than I can throw them. I would not be surprised if he was misquoted.
I would, however, like to see the list previously posted appear in their Ensign magazine. Since this publication is entirely theirs it can be held up to scrutiny. But as you pointed out so well, it does appear as though it is still a denied doctrine since it is even danced around and dressed up their own conference report.
I am seeking a straight answer using LDS resources that states the information in this list. Thanks for the one from the '94 general conference. It does touch on it. I am looking forward to Paul’s response. This wasn’t addressed to me but it was very helpful. Thanks!
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