LDS: There will be an opportunity for those with same sex attraction to marry opposite sex in Heaven?

[twopekinguys]

Yes, the former LDS historian flew up to San Francisco to show his support to the gay community after the Prop 8 situation and was photographed with a group of people who favored gay marriage.

It will be very interesting to see how they handle this in the future - you are so right.

Supposedly, some people blame Mormon bias against gays for the high suicide rate here in Utah. The suicides here are getting out of control and I am wondering if this is also forcing the issue.

The LDS will have a hard time backpeddling on this one due to the Proclamation of the Family that hangs on the walls of the devout - it clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. I am quite sure this proclamation was/is considered to be a great revelation from their prophet.

Excellent points.

I don’t think we will see any discernible shift in doctrine from them until Boyd Packer passes away. He has been super vocal/critical of anything regarding SSA.

After all, one of his speeches at general conference was so over the top, they edited the printed version. Of course, in this day and age, we still have the video.

Here is a link and here also.

I thought it wise to add a link from both sides. After all, KSL is owned by the mormon church.

 

[lax16]

Could I ask where you heard that statistic? My google-fu is failing me, and this is the only thing I can find:

Source - Deseret News Dec 6, 2012

I’ve watched Christians of all stripes struggle with this issue, and try to predict or cast judgement on people who have taken their own lives.

I force myself to be content that righteous and perfect judgement is in God’s hands, and I believe there is hope for such souls.

Yes, I pray for the souls of those who have died from suicide. I have to think that the young people are somehow misled or confused.

I can’t link the article but here is the info:

Was teen’s suicide fueled by bullying? Family left with unclear answers
Suicide » High rate among state’s youths; possible impact of bullying in recent case unknown.
By Ray Parker | The Salt Lake Tribune
First Published Dec 08 2012 06:43 pm • Updated 8 hours ago

In his last minutes of life, 14-year-old David Phan grabbed a gun and shot himself in front of friends.

To some of his Bennion Junior High School peers, the teen’s suicide on Nov. 29 in Taylorsville sounded like yet another young person succumbing to social rejection, if not outright bullying, according to some students and the Phan family.

The junior high student did not post on a Facebook page or leave a written note, according to police reports, so it’s hard to know why he took his own life.

**What is known is that Utah teens commit suicide more often than their peers in other **parts of the nation. Two youths are treated for suicide attempts every day in Utah, according to the latest report on the subject by the Utah Department of Health.

Health officials said all suicide attempts should be taken seriously. In 2011, Utah high school students reported that: 26 percent felt sad/hopeless; 14 percent had seriously considered attempting suicide; 12 percent made a suicide plan; 7 percent attempted suicide one or more times; and 3 percent had suffered an injury because of a suicide attempt that had been treated by seeking medical help.

“[Suicide] is a very big problem in our state,” said Jenny Johnson, a health department coordinator. “Utah has had a high suicide rate for over a decade.”

 

[lax16]

Excellent points.

I don’t think we will see any discernible shift in doctrine from them until Boyd Packer passes away. He has been super vocal/critical of anything regarding SSA.

After all, one of his speeches at general conference was so over the top, they edited the printed version. Of course, in this day and age, we still have the video.

Here is a link and here also.

I thought it wise to add a link from both sides. After all, KSL is owned by the mormon church.

How will they move away from these teachings?
We will have to wait and see how their PR machine can spin it to make more popular to the masses.

 

[twopekinguys]

How will they move away from these teachings?
We will have to wait and see how their PR machine can spin it to make more popular to the masses.

The PR machine is going to be very critical in it all, but I think we’re looking at 2 possibilities.

1. A “Revelation” similar to Blacks and the priesthood in 1978
2. A very quiet under the radar slide it in kind of way.

Either way, i see it happening sometime after Boyd Packer’s death.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So sorry to hear of your loss.

Thanks.

Yes. But the strange thing is I only knew of one adult who committed suicide (he was addicted to drugs as far as I know) and in the 6 years we have lived here have heard of maybe 10. And many of them are young people.
Honestly, I was never connected to a suicide until very recently. A man in California recently took his own life.

I’ve read different reports, some say it is the concentration of people from northern European descent in UT. Apparently, the suicide rate is high in northern European countries. (?) So the thinking is there is a genetic predisposition. I haven’t seen any scientific publications that would support this (doesn’t mean they don’t exist).

Okay. I wonder what they are saying these days because I can tell you, that just since school started this August, there have been several teen suicides in Utah county.
I guess the Trib did an article in yesterday’s paper on the problem but I have not yet read it.

It is the high profile suicide of the jr. high boy. So sad.

I’ve lived in Utah my whole life, and anecdotally, I never head of any suicides at all, until the mid 1980’s. Since then I have friends, family and co-workers, who have had someone close to them kill themselves.

Interesting. I know we had some issues with our Mormon friends years ago (who are now all divorced) because they didn’t understand how we had blessings in our family (success, nice kids etc) and were not Mormon. They always asked us why we would live such a “conservative lifestyle” if no one was forcing us to do so.
I never knew how to answer them. If only I had the right words to say back then…

Why do the LDS have this view of God and his distribution of blessings (or not)?

I have no idea why they take the view they do.

Thanks for your insight. Honestly, we are thinking of moving out of state due to the large number of suicides that we hear about every few weeks or so (and we are not reading about them, it is people we know sharing the info).

We had one of our friends from our parish move recently, back to California. They didn’t have children, but the cultural thing here around failure was too much for them to take. By failure, I mean it isn’t allowed in the Mormon culture, and when that is infused in a business environment, it makes for a very odd place to work.

One of the things I’ve read recently is that those who have suicidal thoughts have them around personal failure. A failed job, a failed marriage, or other failed relationships. The person being interviewed said that people aren’t being taught how to deal with failure in a healthy manner.

In Utah culture, failure is viewed as having a spiritual aspect to it. Mormons have the goal of being perfect. IMO, so concentrated a group all trying to be more perfect, more successful, more “blessed” than everyone around them, can become toxic. The pressure to not fail, to be “perfect”, can be intense.

 

[kimg901]

Rebecca - I hate to ask this, but can that be why Utah leads the nation in teen male suicides?
I can’t understand why these kids are resorting to this (and I am not saying that they are all Mormon) but something seems to be giving them the idea that they will maybe get another chance in the next life perhaps??? A do-over?

It is a terribly sensitive and upsetting subject and I am by no means pointing fingers - I would love some insight to this though.

Lets not forget that Utah has the one of the highest (or is #1) in the nation for anti-depressant use.

 

[kimg901]

About these suicides that have been occuring. We cannot know a persons thoughts. All we can do is pray for their souls. And also, IMHO, I think these deaths might have something to do with religion. It seems to me (from what I witnessed) that there is alot of pressure for returning missionaries and young people (and adults too) from the church that they are not sure if they are doing well in their lives or not.

 

[lax16]

About these suicides that have been occuring. We cannot know a persons thoughts. All we can do is pray for their souls. And also, IMHO, I think these deaths might have something to do with religion. It seems to me (from what I witnessed) that there is alot of pressure for returning missionaries and young people (and adults too) from the church that they are not sure if they are doing well in their lives or not.

You are absolutely right. I do pray - usually the Divine Mercy.

I wonder what is causing the young people to feel so hopeless.

Maybe they feel they must measure up right away - maybe faith is not a journey to some?

This discussion is somewhat off topic I know, and yet, maybe it ties in to the idea of the LDS concept of life in the spirit world?

 

[lax16]

Lets not forget that Utah has the one of the highest (or is #1) in the nation for anti-depressant use.

Yes and isn’t is also #1 in plastic surgery?

 

[lax16]

The PR machine is going to be very critical in it all, but I think we’re looking at 2 possibilities.

1. A “Revelation” similar to Blacks and the priesthood in 1978
2. A very quiet under the radar slide it in kind of way.

Either way, i see it happening sometime after Boyd Packer’s death.

twopekinguys -

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

It seems to me this new website is offering a back door option to those with SSA.

 

[lax16]

I’ve read different reports, some say it is the concentration of people from northern European descent in UT. Apparently, the suicide rate is high in northern European countries. (?) So the thinking is there is a genetic predisposition. I haven’t seen any scientific publications that would support this (doesn’t mean they don’t exist).

That’s a very interesting insight. I wonder if it would explain why teenage boys in particular are committing suicide though.

I’ve lived in Utah my whole life, and anecdotally, I never head of any suicides at all, until the mid 1980’s. Since then I have friends, family and co-workers, who have had someone close to them kill themselves.

It does seem to be very recent in our experience as well.

I have no idea why they take the view they do.

Okay.

We had one of our friends from our parish move recently, back to California. They didn’t have children, but the cultural thing here around failure was too much for them to take. By failure, I mean it isn’t allowed in the Mormon culture, and when that is infused in a business environment, it makes for a very odd place to work.

One of the things I’ve read recently is that those who have suicidal thoughts have them around personal failure. A failed job, a failed marriage, or other failed relationships. The person being interviewed said that people aren’t being taught how to deal with failure in a healthy manner.

In Utah culture, failure is viewed as having a spiritual aspect to it. Mormons have the goal of being perfect. IMO, so concentrated a group all trying to be more perfect, more successful, more “blessed” than everyone around them, can become toxic. The pressure to not fail, to be “perfect”, can be intense.

Very helpful insight. It is a very concentrated group and coming from the big city it feels like a very small town.
I wonder how the Mormons will work around the idea of being perfect because it is not working for many of their members.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - You are correct in saying that it is important to understand the LDS view of the spirit world in order to follow LDS thinking.

I read a very interesting article in Liahona magazine (official LDS publication) on the topic of the spirit world and it was a jaw dropper. I cannot successfully link it but I suggest reading it. I googled Liahona article on the spirit world and it came up. (It is called The Spirit World: Our Next Home or something close to that).

It has absolutely changed my view on everything Mormon. They have such a totally different idea of how things will be in the next life that it really affects the way they live this one. This is why they think soooo differently than non-Mormons on most topics.

This thread should actually be about the LDS view of the spirit world and how it relates to “do overs” in the next life, such as marriage for those with SSA.

Sorry for the late response. I just missed your post somehow. I’ll try to find to find the article from Liahona magazine, sounds interesting. And yes I agree with you concerning the influence of Mormon doctrines on the way they live their lives. Of course, I would hope that Catholic doctrines would influence the way Catholic’s live their lives as well.

But I completley agree that these foundational doctrines (I would include “pre-mortal existence”) influence the way they think on all subsequent issues and are the invisible wall between Mormons and most other faith traditions when it comes to communicating the things of God. We simply are not speaking of the same thing even though we are using the same words. It can be very frustrating for both sides, I think.

 

[lax16]

Sorry for the late response. I just missed your post somehow. I’ll try to find to find the article from Liahona magazine, sounds interesting. And yes I agree with you concerning the influence of Mormon doctrines on the way they live their lives. Of course, I would hope that Catholic doctrines would influence the way Catholic’s live their lives as well.

No problem.
Yes, if Catholics understood more about their faith they would love it and therefore, live it.

But I completley agree that these foundational doctrines (I would include “pre-mortal existence”) influence the way they think on all subsequent issues and are the invisible wall between Mormons and most other faith traditions when it comes to communicating the things of God. We simply are not speaking of the same thing even though we are using the same words. It can be very frustrating for both sides, I think.

It is hard to describe the “fog” that exists living here in Utah. There is such a difference here (as opposed to other states we have lived in) in the way people respond to things - especially tragic events - that I knew there had to be a difference in the way Mormons view the after life.
When we first moved here, we were watching the local news and a young child had been killed while sledding. The mother was on the news a couple of hours after the accident with a full face of make-up acknowledging somehow that it was meant to be. I am sure she was in a state of shock but there was something so different about her reaction. I have seen it several times since.

This article in the Liahona has really helped me understand what it is we have been experiencing in light of the Mormon view of how “we just pick things up where we left off.”
How we will get a chance to raise that child that died prematurely in the next life. It is such a different idea of how we handle problems in this lifetime.

If you have SSA in this life, no problem, just hang in there and have a marriage/family in the next…

 

[SteveVH]

It is hard to describe the “fog” that exists living here in Utah. There is such a difference here (as opposed to other states we have lived in) in the way people respond to things - especially tragic events - that I knew there had to be a difference in the way Mormons view the after life.
When we first moved here, we were watching the local news and a young child had been killed while sledding. The mother was on the news a couple of hours after the accident with a full face of make-up acknowledging somehow that it was meant to be. I am sure she was in a state of shock but there was something so different about her reaction. I have seen it several times since.

It’s hard to imagine. I was on an LDS forum not long ago where abortion was being defended on the premise that the aborted baby had obviously chosen to be aborted in it’s pre-mortal life. I would imagine that the same logic applied in the case of the child in the sledding accident.

This article in the Liahona has really helped me understand what it is we have been experiencing in light of the Mormon view of how “we just pick things up where we left off.” How we will get a chance to raise that child that died prematurely in the next life. It is such a different idea of how we handle problems in this lifetime.

If you have SSA in this life, no problem, just hang in there and have a marriage/family in the next…

Looking forward to reading the article. Thanks.

 

[kimg901]

Yes and isn’t is also #1 in plastic surgery?

Im not sure about the surgery part but it seems like it could be.

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekinguys -

I think you have hit the nail on the head.

It seems to me this new website is offering a back door option to those with SSA.

Exactly.

They are testing the waters.

One PR nightmare they are going to have to deal with when that happens is, they will end up calling everyone homophobes, and it just adds a whole new suit of cards to the deck of persecution cards that are played all too often.

 

[lax16]

Exactly.

They are testing the waters.

One PR nightmare they are going to have to deal with when that happens is, they will end up calling everyone homophobes, and it just adds a whole new suit of cards to the deck of persecution cards that are played all too often.

How did you know about the persecution cards - do you live here in Utah?

 

[twopekinguys]

How did you know about the persecution cards - do you live here in Utah?

I actually lived in Sandy for a while. Also, I’ve been around the forums enough to know how things operate.

 

[lax16]

I actually lived in Sandy for a while. Also, I’ve been around the forums enough to know how things operate.

What a small world!

 

[twopekinguys]

I actually lived in Sandy for a while. Also, I’ve been around the forums enough to know how things operate.

We called it “Morg Central Adjacent”…LOL