LDS view on abortion?

[BDawg]

ex-mormon:

How is the mother or childs life in danger in the case of rape or insest? Is it not true that LDS teachings allow abortions for those circumstances? Both of these acts of procreation are horrible and barbaric, but how does that justify terminating the innocent life created? I will saddle up on a moral high horse on this subject because there is no grey area. Use the old testament as an exception to the rule all you wan’t, but the fact remains that the israelites were commanded by god to do these things because that was his will at the time. Since then his Son has given the complete and everlasting gospel that does not allow for these homocides. Were do you get your statistics on the LDS having a much lower abortion rate?

Hi ex-mo,

See the review of Isaiah Bennett’s books I linked for the stats.

You bring up a good point about rape and incest, but I think you misunderstand something. Some of you are acting like the LDS abortion policy opens the door so that anyone who has conceived a child through rape or incest can automatically get an abortion. This is simply not the case. This “loophole” is in there so that women or girls who have undergone such things, AND who are in a severely freaked-out state, would not have to undergo 9 months of torture. All women who are raped and get pregnant are not in the sort of state that would get them committed to a mental hospital. Certainly Momof5’s mother was in a clear-headed state. However, ONCE IN A GREAT WHILE, you get a girl who has repeatedly been raped by her grandfather, and she is in a dissociative state. The doctors helping her might recommend that having the baby would push her further over the edge.

This is what I am talking about. There are rare cases where you have to weigh two lives in the balance and make a hard decision. To my mind, dismissing these rare cases is callous.

BDawg

 

[BDawg]

Hi Mom,

I understand why you are emotional about this, but we are not talking about a young girl “in trouble” going to her bishop to ask permission to get an abortion. We are talking about girls who are suffering severe emotional trauma.

Second, you misunderstand our 11th article of faith. We don’t claim that “all religions are ok,” as you seem to think. We just figure that one ought not to “convert” people at swordpoint, as the RCC has done on many occasions in the past. Religion is a matter of conscience, and certainly these missionaries did nothing to “force” you to join the LDS Church. They just put forward some arguments, and maybe some of them were not even good arguments.

BDawg

 

[Mom_of_5]

BDawg:

Hi Mom,

I understand why you are emotional about this, but we are not talking about a young girl “in trouble” going to her bishop to ask permission to get an abortion. We are talking about girls who are suffering severe emotional trauma.

Second, you misunderstand our 11th article of faith. We don’t claim that “all religions are ok,” as you seem to think. We just figure that one ought not to “convert” people at swordpoint, as the RCC has done on many occasions in the past. Religion is a matter of conscience, and certainly these missionaries did nothing to “force” you to join the LDS Church. They just put forward some arguments, and maybe some of them were not even good arguments.

BDawg

BDawg,

I am always emotional when it comes to life and death, as we all should be. If you were to tell my birth mother that she was not sufficiently traumatized by her rape to be given permission for abortion, she would tell you a thing or two about “trauma”.

In the day of her rape, and even sometimes now-a-days, girls that were (are) raped are blamed for being raped. That in itself causes horrific trauma. I guess I should have put it in stronger terms. Whether by rape, incest, or if the fetus is determined to be DD, etc., whether or not the mother is traumatized, murder is not an option. Who judges which girl is more traumatized than the next?
As it was explained to me, “She went through hell and back many times awaiting your birth and many times in the years since, but seeing you with what you have done with your life, makes it all worth while”. I do not believe that any of us can play God, we take what is handed to us and do the best we can with the help of our dear God. Those who opt to abort are traumatized not once, but over and over for life.

The 11th Article…No I didn’t mean that you think all religions are o.k., just the opposite. You only accept your own and try to convince everyone else that to enjoy eternal happiness they must be LDS. In doing so, you come to our homes, approach us on the street, even stand outside our churches and cathedrals with LDS information. You are , according to the Article, to allow us to do our own thing, not push your beliefs on us. I have been very patient with those who come to my door and have sat in my living room trying to convince me that I am worshipping wrong!!! When LDS come to MY house, it is an invasion. If I want to learn about LDS, I will call them or go to the meeting house to learn more.

I do think this “invasion” of religious privacy might be stopped if all (not just JW)other religions came to the door of the LDS, frowned when you tell us you are LDS, and ask to teach you the “truth” about your faith. We would come back every month until you caved in and converted, or locked the door and played “not home” when you see us coming. We would stand outside your meeting house, church, stake, temple and hand you material to read that “proves your religion is wrong.”

There has been a lot gained through all the LDS invasion. I have become very strong in my own faith, I have LDS friends. I insist that we respect one another, no “converting”, either way. For this, I thank you. Amen!!

p.s. How about my question about the pope?

love and Peace

 

[BDawg]

Mom of 5:

I am always emotional when it comes to life and death, as we all should be. If you were to tell my birth mother that she was not sufficiently traumatized by her rape to be given permission for abortion, she would tell you a thing or two about “trauma”.

Perhaps so, but it is still a decision that has to be made. Compare the case of a woman who has been abused by her husband coming to the RCC authorities asking for an annulment so she can marry again in the Church and find some happiness in a healthy relationship. If a bunch of celibates turned her away, she might have a thing or two to say to them. But what are they supposed to do? They are responsible to make some kind of decision.
Mom of 5:

The 11th Article…No I didn’t mean that you think all religions are o.k., just the opposite. You only accept your own and try to convince everyone else that to enjoy eternal happiness they must be LDS. In doing so, you come to our homes, approach us on the street, even stand outside our churches and cathedrals with LDS information. You are , according to the Article, to allow us to do our own thing, not push your beliefs on us. I have been very patient with those who come to my door and have sat in my living room trying to convince me that I am worshipping wrong!!! When LDS come to MY house, it is an invasion. If I want to learn about LDS, I will call them or go to the meeting house to learn more.

I would consider it very rude for them to stand outside a cathedral with pamphlets. If they are actually doing that, and you aren’t just making it up for rhetorical effect, you should get their names off their tags and report them to the mission presidency. It won’t be tolerated. I know of a couple cases where JW’s actually bought LDS missionary tags and pretended to be us, but got caught.

However, you are still misreading the article. It says nothing about actively trying to convert people. It is all about the right to worship how you want to without people forcing you to worship some other way. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s a standard statement about religious freedom. And by the way, given RCC beliefs about the importance of being baptized into your church, I would consider any Catholic who takes your attitude about “not trying to convert anyone” as derelict in your duty. You shouldn’t FORCE people to convert, but you can certainly try to PERSUADE them. You can HOPE for them. Maybe the wisest course is not to PRESSURE them, but you can still pray for them and talk about religion with them in a friendly way.

“Invasion,” indeed. All you have to say to them is that you are not interested, and they will never end up “in your living room.” Why would you let religious missionaries in your home, if you have no interest in talking religion with them. And yes, the RCC does have missionaries, too. Are they “invading” the “religious privacy” of everyone they proselyte?

As for the Pope, I’m sure he is welcome to join the only true and living Church of Christ in the spirit world. He was a great man. Does that “offend” you? Well, I couldn’t care less. I’m probably saying this in a much more callous way than I should, but when I see people who get “offended” by others’ religious beliefs, when they have no practical effect on the person so “offended,” I think of a statement made by Brigham Young. “He who is offended when offense is not intended is a fool. He who is offended when offense is intended is usually a fool.”

BDawg

 

[Mom_of_5]

BDawg:

Perhaps so, but it is still a decision that has to be made. Compare the case of a woman who has been abused by her husband coming to the RCC authorities asking for an annulment so she can marry again in the Church and find some happiness in a healthy relationship. If a bunch of celibates turned her away, she might have a thing or two to say to them. But what are they supposed to do? They are responsible to make some kind of decision.

I would consider it very rude for them to stand outside a cathedral with pamphlets. If they are actually doing that, and you aren’t just making it up for rhetorical effect, you should get their names off their tags and report them to the mission presidency. It won’t be tolerated. I know of a couple cases where JW’s actually bought LDS missionary tags and pretended to be us, but got caught.

However, you are still misreading the article. It says nothing about actively trying to convert people. It is all about the right to worship how you want to without people forcing you to worship some other way. Why is that so hard to understand? It’s a standard statement about religious freedom. And by the way, given RCC beliefs about the importance of being baptized into your church, I would consider any Catholic who takes your attitude about “not trying to convert anyone” as derelict in your duty. You shouldn’t FORCE people to convert, but you can certainly try to PERSUADE them. You can HOPE for them. Maybe the wisest course is not to PRESSURE them, but you can still pray for them and talk about religion with them in a friendly way.

“Invasion,” indeed. All you have to say to them is that you are not interested, and they will never end up “in your living room.” Why would you let religious missionaries in your home, if you have no interest in talking religion with them. And yes, the RCC does have missionaries, too. Are they “invading” the “religious privacy” of everyone they proselyte?

As for the Pope, I’m sure he is welcome to join the only true and living Church of Christ in the spirit world. He was a great man. Does that “offend” you? Well, I couldn’t care less. I’m probably saying this in a much more callous way than I should, but when I see people who get “offended” by others’ religious beliefs, when they have no practical effect on the person so “offended,” I think of a statement made by Brigham Young. “He who is offended when offense is not intended is a fool. He who is offended when offense is intended is usually a fool.”

BDawg

I do no longer allow missionaries in my home. When my husband was still LDS, I allowed missionaries, home teachers, etc. in our home out of respect to my husband. When he made the decision to write his letter to be removed from the roles, I no longer felt it necessary to “invite them in”. Yes, we have missionaries. They don’t go to your door. I think you are very aware of the Catholic missionary work. It is not door to door!

I am not offended about what you said about the pope in the “spirit world”. I was curious as to what you believed, that is all.
The Lord has said “No man knows what I have prepared for you…”
He also said that we would be surprised at who is and is not going to heaven. I truly believe that we shall ALL be surprised!!!

You are right. #11 does not say anything about actively converting…It says that you ,LDS, should leave us alone to believe what we wish. I say you are going against your own Article.

Annulments and abortion are two differnt subjects!!!You don’t have to have had cancer to help a cancer patient through treatment.

Amen, Amen…

Love and Peace

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

Hi ex-mo,

See the review of Isaiah Bennett’s books I linked for the stats.

You bring up a good point about rape and incest, but I think you misunderstand something. Some of you are acting like the LDS abortion policy opens the door so that anyone who has conceived a child through rape or incest can automatically get an abortion. This is simply not the case. This “loophole” is in there so that women or girls who have undergone such things, AND who are in a severely freaked-out state, would not have to undergo 9 months of torture. All women who are raped and get pregnant are not in the sort of state that would get them committed to a mental hospital. Certainly Momof5’s mother was in a clear-headed state. However, ONCE IN A GREAT WHILE, you get a girl who has repeatedly been raped by her grandfather, and she is in a dissociative state. The doctors helping her might recommend that having the baby would push her further over the edge.

This is what I am talking about. There are rare cases where you have to weigh two lives in the balance and make a hard decision. To my mind, dismissing these rare cases is callous.

BDawg

BDawg,

How typical of FAIR and all mormon apologists to use unsceintific data to bolster their case. You can not compare Utah abortion rates to Rhode Island abortion rates and come up with the conclusion that Mormons have a lower abortion rate than Catholics. The population of Utah is 2.3 mil people and at 70% Mormon that would equal 1.6 mil Mormons. 1.6 mil mormons equals 14% of your church population. The population of Rhode Island is 1 mil people and at 67% being catholic that would equal 670 thousand Catholics. 670 thousand Catholics equals .067 % of the Catholic population. Rhode Island is a very liberal state and Utah is not. The only logical conclusion is there is not enough data for you or FAIR to make such a statement.

How can anyone use the excuse of a “Freaked out state” as the means to commit murder? Since when did a Doctor (Physciatrist) take the role of God and determine that the mothers mental condition will be pushed over the edge unless you kill the unborn child. No person who has been raped by force or through incestual means can be in their right mind after this has occured. No person in that dissociative state could possibly suffer more in their life. But that does not give anyone the right to kill or advocate the killing of that unborn person. We are a society of taking the easy way out if we don’t wan’t to suffer personal pain, this a sad means to an end if it excuses the murder of the innocent. You never have to weigh two lives in the balance when both of them can be saved.

God bless,

ex-mo

 

[BDawg]

Mom of 5:

Yes, we have missionaries. They don’t go to your door. I think you are very aware of the Catholic missionary work. It is not door to door!

“And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house” (Acts 20:20)
Mom of 5:

I am not offended about what you said about the pope in the “spirit world”. I was curious as to what you believed, that is all.

I’m glad. I thought you were trying to pick some sort of fight because you said you were so offended that some of your ancestors had Temple work done for them. I just don’t understand why anyone would care.
Mom of 5:

You are right. #11 does not say anything about actively converting…It says that you ,LDS, should leave us alone to believe what we wish. I say you are going against your own Article.

Please read it again. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” It says that we should allow others to worship how they wish. Where does it say “leave them alone,” and when did any LDS people ever try to take away your privelege to worship how you wish? They just went around asking people whether they wanted to hear their message.

And you never said whether you had actually had LDS missionaries passing out literature outside your cathedral, or whether you were just making it up. If it’s true, you ought to report it.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

ex-mormon:

BDawg,

How typical of FAIR and all mormon apologists to use unsceintific data to bolster their case. You can not compare Utah abortion rates to Rhode Island abortion rates and come up with the conclusion that Mormons have a lower abortion rate than Catholics. The population of Utah is 2.3 mil people and at 70% Mormon that would equal 1.6 mil Mormons. 1.6 mil mormons equals 14% of your church population. The population of Rhode Island is 1 mil people and at 67% being catholic that would equal 670 thousand Catholics. 670 thousand Catholics equals .067 % of the Catholic population. Rhode Island is a very liberal state and Utah is not. The only logical conclusion is there is not enough data for you or FAIR to make such a statement.

How can anyone use the excuse of a “Freaked out state” as the means to commit murder? Since when did a Doctor (Physciatrist) take the role of God and determine that the mothers mental condition will be pushed over the edge unless you kill the unborn child. No person who has been raped by force or through incestual means can be in their right mind after this has occured. No person in that dissociative state could possibly suffer more in their life. But that does not give anyone the right to kill or advocate the killing of that unborn person. We are a society of taking the easy way out if we don’t wan’t to suffer personal pain, this a sad means to an end if it excuses the murder of the innocent. You never have to weigh two lives in the balance when both of them can be saved.

God bless,

ex-mo

Unbelievable! This whole thread had gotten very nasty. Ex Mo I am glad that you are not sitting in the judgement seat. I think our Lord will be much more kind and understanding and will take all things into consideration when judging persons who have had abortions or committed any other sin for that matter. I think you are speculating about how God will judge.
Mom of 5, I also think that someone who allows the missionaries into their home and then complains about them being there has a problem. You need to say no, if you don’t want them there. When your husband was LDS maybe it was different, but even then you should have said no if you were so upset by it.
When my husband and I first married, he was a little worried by all the visitors I had from the church and he would leave for awhile and then he came back early one time and ended up enjoying the conversation so much he walked them to the car. Now he has no problem with missionaries or home teachers. They built his wheelchair ramp when he became paralyzed from brain surgery 2 years ago, our home teacher took him to his physical therapy when I couldn’t. The Catholics in his Parish never even called to ask how he was doing.
My husband does not feel that he needs to convert to be friends with Mormons, he feels their genuine love for him and they respect his strong belief in his own Catholic religion, several of them called to express their sadness over the death of his Pope.
I have never seen LDS missionaries in front of a Cathedral or Parish and I attend with my husband every Sunday. I would like to hear specifics about which Cathedral or Parish you saw the LDS missionaries handing out literature in front of.
It seems this thread is going around and around about how both religions do not believe in abortion, but the Catholics say the Mormons do and I know for a fact the Catholics forgive abortion, as I stated earlier they have a class for girls who have had abortions to work on forgiveness. What are you all talking about?
We believe the same as you do on abortion.
Charity Never Faileth,
BJ

 

[ex-mormon]

BJ Colbert:

Unbelievable! This whole thread had gotten very nasty. Ex Mo I am glad that you are not sitting in the judgement seat. I think our Lord will be much more kind and understanding and will take all things into consideration when judging persons who have had abortions or committed any other sin for that matter. I think you are speculating about how God will judge.

BJ,

I am not judging any person (please reread my post). We are speaking about the intent to commit sin. I have never speculated how God will judge any individual. I think you are defensive of your religion and it’s beliefs on the abortion issue. Every person can be forgiven of a sin if they are truley repentant of those sins, and the judgement is left to the Lord and not Men, there is no speculation on my part. If I have offended you it’s because I don’t think there is any grey area on this subject.

It seems this thread is going around and around about how both religions do not believe in abortion, but the Catholics say the Mormons do and I know for a fact the Catholics forgive abortion, as I stated earlier they have a class for girls who have had abortions to work on forgiveness. What are you all talking about?
We believe the same as you do on abortion.
Charity Never Faileth,
BJ

Catholics don’t forgive abortion, God does, the priest forgives on the churches part. No we don’t believe the same thing as you do on abortion. We don’t make concessions as far as the emotional state of the mother is concerned when rape or incest is involed. If the Catholic church has any grey areas on this subject than please enlighten me.

God bless

ex-mo

 

[BDawg]

ex-mormon:

How typical of FAIR and all mormon apologists to use unsceintific data to bolster their case. You can not compare Utah abortion rates to Rhode Island abortion rates and come up with the conclusion that Mormons have a lower abortion rate than Catholics. The population of Utah is 2.3 mil people and at 70% Mormon that would equal 1.6 mil Mormons. 1.6 mil mormons equals 14% of your church population. The population of Rhode Island is 1 mil people and at 67% being catholic that would equal 670 thousand Catholics. 670 thousand Catholics equals .067 % of the Catholic population. Rhode Island is a very liberal state and Utah is not. The only logical conclusion is there is not enough data for you or FAIR to make such a statement.

Hi ex,

Who said anything about FAIR? The review was published by FARMS. And you obviously didn’t read it. The author was responding to Isaiah Bennett, who had used a 50 states almanac to bring all sorts of charges against the LDS. Bennett, in fact, compared divorce rates in Utah and Rhode Island. So perhaps this tactic is “typical of Catholic Answers”? You should read the whole section of the review on Bennett’s statistics. Bennett was EXTREMELY irresponsible. Anyone (like me) who has taken a college statistics course could see this in an instant.

The author of the review was merely showing how Bennett had abused such statistics, and how the same kinds of statistics could be turned against Catholics. With respect to abortion, there was specific data about Catholics NATIONWIDE in the article (not just the population of Rhode Island) that said they get abortions at the same rate as the general population. “Catholics are as likely as women in the general population to have an abortion, while Protestants are only 69% as likely and Evangelical or born-again Christians are only 39% as likely.” The source is “Stanley K. Henshaw and Kathryn Kost, “Abortion Patients in 1994–1995: Characteristics and Contraceptive Use,” Family Planning Perspectives 28/4 (1996): 140.”

There was no specific data about LDS abortion rate nationwide, but in cases where Utah deviates considerably from the norm, it is responsible to use Utah data as a proxy for the LDS. In this case, Utah has about 70% LDS, and about a quarter of the LDS in the USA live there. Utah’s abortion rate is about 1/3 of the national average. Now, how could that be possible if the LDS abortion rate was anywhere near the national average? It HAS TO be much lower, whereas there is specific data for Catholics nationwide, showing that they get abortions at the same rate as the general population. Do the math, ex. Let’s see, if the national average is 23 abortions per 1000 childbearing-age women, and the Utah average is 8 per 1000, then even if we assume that the Mormons are the ONLY ones getting abortions in Utah, that means they are only getting abortions at a rate of about 12 per 1000 women.

In other cases, it may not be responsible to use the Utah data as a proxy, especially if the stats aren’t that far off the national average. For instance, Bennett cited state-by-state crime rankings to show that Utah had a higher-than-average rate for certain types of crimes. But then, the author of the review I linked dug up statistics on religious affiliation of inmates in the prison population in Utah. It turns out that “Although Latter-day Saints comprise approximately 70% of the Utah population, only 34.6% of the male inmates and 24.4% of the female inmates are listed as Latter-day Saints. And although Catholics comprise only about 6% of Utah’s population, 17.6% of the male inmates and 15.1% of the female inmates are listed as Catholic.” Now, the author of the review did not do a Bennett and accuse Catholicism of promoting crime, and neither would I. I would simply assume that the high proportion of Catholic inmates is simply due to the fairly large population of Latin American immigrants, who tend to be very poor. Certainly socioeconomic status has to be taken into account when trying to determine the meaning of crime statistics.

As for the murder charge, as I noted to Chris, we do not equate abortion with murder. I guess we are just speaking a different language on that one.

BDawg

 

[tkdnick]

BDawg:

I would consider it very rude for them to stand outside a cathedral with pamphlets. If they are actually doing that, and you aren’t just making it up for rhetorical effect, you should get their names off their tags and report them to the mission presidency. It won’t be tolerated.

Hey BDawg, there is another thread around here somewhere (can’t remember which one) that has a link (I think) to an article about some LDS missionaries in Italy being told to do this by their Mission President.

 

[BDawg]

tkdnick:

Hey BDawg, there is another thread around here somewhere (can’t remember which one) that has a link (I think) to an article about some LDS missionaries in Italy being told to do this by their Mission President.

If this is true (and I seriously doubt it), the mission pres. ought to be reported to Church headquarters. I remember such a discussion on another forum, and I believe someone who was a missionary in that mission in Italy at the time in question showed up and said it was absolute bunk. And like I said, we do get people dressing up as LDS missionaries from time to time, who are not LDS at all.

Anyway, once in a while you do get LDS people who start going militant. I think it is because we get attacked quite a bit, and some people snap and want to “fight fire with fire.” However, in our General Conferences, our apostles and prophets are CONSTANTLY telling us to be friendly and sensitive to people of other faiths, especially in areas where we are in the majority. That’s why I doubt that a mission president would be behind such a thing.

I also would be suspicious if this article purports to be by some ex-LDS person. I’m not saying that all ex-LDS are a pack of liars, but people who leave a religion often have an axe to grind. Karl Keating makes the same point about lurid stories by ex-Catholics in “Catholicism and Fundamentalism.” At one point in my life, I read a bunch of anti-Catholic literature written by protestants, but I also read Catholic apologetic responses. I came to the conclusion that 95% of the anti-Catholic arguments were absolute garbage. After that, I decided to stick to reputable histories and the like.

BDawg

BDawg

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

Hi ex,

Who said anything about FAIR? The review was published by FARMS. And you obviously didn’t read it. The author was responding to Isaiah Bennett, who had used a 50 states almanac to bring all sorts of charges against the LDS. Bennett, in fact, compared divorce rates in Utah and Rhode Island. So perhaps this tactic is “typical of Catholic Answers”? You should read the whole section of the review on Bennett’s statistics. Bennett was EXTREMELY irresponsible. Anyone (like me) who has taken a college statistics course could see this in an instant.

BDawg,

Did you read the article by Barry R. Bickmore? I did. My only correction to my post is that it was FARMS not FAIR. I did not say that I agree with the statistical data that Bennett used in his book because I have not researched it. The only conclusion I came up with is;

by ex-mormon
The only logical conclusion is there is not enough data for you or FAIR to make such a statement.

This is a direct response to the statement that you made in a previous post;

Originally Posted by BDawg

*Then maybe you will get me to listen to Catholic teachings on this issue, when LDS have a much lower abortion rate than Catholics. *

BDawg

and a direct response to Barry R. Bickmore article on Bennett’s book;

Is that so? Let us examine a few relevant facts. First, Utah does not just have a low abortion rate-it has the lowest abortion rate among all the states, and this despite having the highest birth rate. Of course, the fact that Utah has the lowest out-of-wedlock birth rate might be a contributing factor as well.[41] On the other hand, Roman Catholicism has the strictest stance against abortion I know of, but a recent study showed that “Catholics are as likely as women in the general population to have an abortion, while Protestants are only 69% as likely and Evangelical or born-again Christians are only 39% as likely.”[42] In a 1992 Gallup Poll, only 12.9% of Catholics surveyed responded that abortion is never a morally acceptable choice.[43] Bennett only once attempts to compare Catholic and Mormon statistics by citing the divorce rates in Utah and Rhode Island, where the population is 63% Catholic (IM,p. 149 n. 16). But when it comes to the abortion issue, he neglects to inform us that while Utah had an abortion rate of 8 per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44 in 1998, Rhode Island’s abortion rate was 24 per 1,000, and the national average was 23.**

Is this not an irresponsible statisticaI statement by Bickmore? I still stand by my original post that Bickmore was irresponsible and slipery when he used the Utah to Rhode Island comparrison. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Show me were I am wrong in my statements about this review of Bennett’s work. The question still stands as to why you would use this article as statistical data for the above referenced statement that you made, when you yourself said that Bennett’s data is irresponsible. You can’t have it both ways.

by BDawg

As for the murder charge, as I noted to Chris, we do not equate abortion with murder. I guess we are just speaking a different language on that one.

If murder is defined as taking an innocent life, then what do you consider it? What could be more innocent than an unborn child no matter how it was conceived.

God bless,

ex-mo

 

[BDawg]

ex-mormon:

Is this not an irresponsible statisticaI statement by Bickmore? I still stand by my original post that Bickmore was irresponsible and slipery when he used the Utah to Rhode Island comparrison. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Show me were I am wrong in my statements about this review of Bennett’s work. The question still stands as to why you would use this article as statistical data for the above referenced statement that you made, when you yourself said that Bennett’s data is irresponsible. You can’t have it both ways.

Ex-mo, I already did answer it. You are right that using RI as a statistical proxy for Catholics in the USA is probably not a good idea, because RI Catholics are a small percentage of Catholics in the USA, and all from one area. Bickmore did that because Bennett had done such a comparison regarding divorce rates, and he was showing that such comparisons don’t always look that good for Catholics. However, he also gave specific data for Catholics nationwide, which I highlighted in my last post, so the use of the RI statistic is irrelevant. The only question left is whether using the Utah abortion rate as a proxy for Mormons in the USA is credible. And yes, it is. Utah Mormons are about 20-25% of the Mormons in the USA, which makes them a very big chunk of the total. Also, they are 70% of the Utah population, so where Utah deviates substantially from the national average (like when they have 1/3 the abortion rate), the rate for Mormons in Utah must deviate substantially, as well.

I stand by this. In my profession I have to use statistics all the time, and this is a completely responsible use of them. I have seen a number of social scientists who study Mormons use the Utah abortion rate as a proxy for Mormons in the USA, so I am certain this is not a big issue. Did you do the little math problem I assigned? Do you actually still want to deny that Mormons have a much lower abortion rate than the national average?

ex-mormon:

If murder is defined as taking an innocent life, then what do you consider it? What could be more innocent than an unborn child no matter how it was conceived.

This might be an area where we have been talking past each other. The Mormon belief in a premortal existence of spirits makes it ambiguous when a fetus becomes a “person.” Thus, abortion is defined as something “like murder,” but not necessarily murder. I think Catholics are obliged to view the moment of conception as the point when the person is created, though. Am I correct? Anyway, I don’t think we can argue this one out, if we have different definitions of when someone becomes a person, so I’ll just let you have the last word, if you want it.

BDawg

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

Ex-mo, I already did answer it. You are right that using RI as a statistical proxy for Catholics in the USA is probably not a good idea, because RI Catholics are a small percentage of Catholics in the USA, and all from one area. Bickmore did that because Bennett had done such a comparison regarding divorce rates, and he was showing that such comparisons don’t always look that good for Catholics. However, he also gave specific data for Catholics nationwide, which I highlighted in my last post, so the use of the RI statistic is irrelevant. The only question left is whether using the Utah abortion rate as a proxy for Mormons in the USA is credible. And yes, it is. Utah Mormons are about 20-25% of the Mormons in the USA, which makes them a very big chunk of the total. Also, they are 70% of the Utah population, so where Utah deviates substantially from the national average (like when they have 1/3 the abortion rate), the rate for Mormons in Utah must deviate substantially, as well.

I stand by this. In my profession I have to use statistics all the time, and this is a completely responsible use of them. I have seen a number of social scientists who study Mormons use the Utah abortion rate as a proxy for Mormons in the USA, so I am certain this is not a big issue. Did you do the little math problem I assigned? Do you actually still want to deny that Mormons have a much lower abortion rate than the national average?

BDawg,

Thanks for the clarification on the national statistics, however your statement was a broad statement about Mormon abortion rates versus Catholic abortion rates. Yes I did do the math problem and that does not change the fact that my numbers included 12 mil Mormons world wide and 1 bil Catholics world wide. I am saying that their is not enough data to make sweeping statements like;

Originally Posted by BDawg

*Then maybe you will get me to listen to Catholic teachings on this issue, when LDS have a much lower abortion rate than Catholics. *

BDawg

I never claimed that mormons don’t have a lower abortion rate than the U.S. national average. I would like to have seen Brickmore and you not make these statisticaly unfounded statements about all Catholics.

This might be an area where we have been talking past each other. The Mormon belief in a premortal existence of spirits makes it ambiguous when a fetus becomes a “person.” Thus, abortion is defined as something “like murder,” but not necessarily murder. I think Catholics are obliged to view the moment of conception as the point when the person is created, though. Am I correct? Anyway, I don’t think we can argue this one out, if we have different definitions of when someone becomes a person, so I’ll just let you have the last word, if you want it.

No I don’t think we can argue this one out. I know were the LDS church stands on the definition and I know were the Catholic church stands on this definition. My next question is when does a person get a soul with relation to your stance on late term abortion?

God bless

ex-mo

 

[BDawg]

ex-mormon:

Thanks for the clarification on the national statistics, however your statement was a broad statement about Mormon abortion rates versus Catholic abortion rates. Yes I did do the math problem and that does not change the fact that my numbers included 12 mil Mormons world wide and 1 bil Catholics world wide. I am saying that their is not enough data to make sweeping statements like;

All those statistics cited can only be applied to Catholics and LDS in the USA. I don’t have a clue what the rates are outside of this country, so I apologize if I gave the impression that I was including all Catholics in the world. I doubt they even keep track of such things in many areas where Catholicism is prevalent

ex-mormon:

I never claimed that mormons don’t have a lower abortion rate than the U.S. national average. I would like to have seen Brickmore and you not make these statisticaly unfounded statements about all Catholics.

Remember that Bickmore cited a study that said Catholics in the USA get abortions at the same rate as the national average. If you accept that Mormons get abortions at a rate much less than the national average, it follows that Mormons in the USA get abortions at a much lower rate than Catholics in the USA. Again, if you understand that only the USA is being talked about, I suggest that the statement was not unfounded.

ex-mormon:

No I don’t think we can argue this one out. I know were the LDS church stands on the definition and I know were the Catholic church stands on this definition. My next question is when does a person get a soul with relation to your stance on late term abortion?

There are different opinions about that, and it’s considered “not yet revealed”. Sorry I can’t be more specific.

BDawg

 

[ex-mormon]

BDawg:

All those statistics cited can only be applied to Catholics and LDS in the USA. I don’t have a clue what the rates are outside of this country, so I apologize if I gave the impression that I was including all Catholics in the world. I doubt they even keep track of such things in many areas where Catholicism is prevalent

Remember that Bickmore cited a study that said Catholics in the USA get abortions at the same rate as the national average. If you accept that Mormons get abortions at a rate much less than the national average, it follows that Mormons in the USA get abortions at a much lower rate than Catholics in the USA. Again, if you understand that only the USA is being talked about, I suggest that the statement was not unfounded.

Yes I agree that if we talk only about Catholics in the USA and define it that way, then you are right that Mormons have a lower abortion rate. I think it’s a great compliment to the LDS people that they have kept their moral fiber in this day and age. It saddens me that so many Catholics in the USA look past the Churches teaching on this topic. (For reference please see gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=15550) I hope in my heart that these people will come to realize that these issues effect them and their fellow man moraly and spiritualy. I have always said that Catholics can learn a lesson of family and community closeness from the Mormon community. I don’t agree with a lot of the doctorine and beliefs of the LDS faith, but I will say that their sense of right and wrong, and their moral fiber should be applauded and looked up too. With that said, we should pray for all the people who have lost their faith and hope that they will embrace God and not fall prey to the degradation and ilkes of our ever “progressive” society.

God bless

ex-mo

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Just a little point on differences in timing on whether it is an abortion or not. My husband was given a book by his priest that states a Catholic woman will be judged for all the times she could have gotten pregnant and did not. That gave me the impression that Catholics are not allowed to have marital relations without getting pregnant, if they use any kind of prevention(any kind) the woman will be damned. Never the man, only the woman.
I will try to find the book, we may have thrown it away as my husband was just a shocked as I was to find that chapter.
Can any Catholic in this forum please explain that to me? Also, how do Catholics keep track of the membership? I know many Catholics that have only been to church up to the point of 1st communion or when they left the home of their parents. Are they still counted in the official Catholic population? I personally know one of these kinds of Catholics that has had 9 abortions. I know many who are married in a mass and practice birth control after they are married to avoid having children until they are financially ready, or when it seems convenient to them.
I am sure there are Mormons like this too, but I don’t personally know any. So I am just basing this question on personal knowledge. It is just a question, so I would like an answer. Do you as Catholics understand that you are not to engage in any sexual relations, without doing so with the purpose of conceiving a child?
Just wondering
BJ

 

[BDawg]

Hi BJ,

Here is an article by a Catholic priest posted on the EWTN site. You might find it helpful for answering your questions.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRACTNFP.HTM

BDawg

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Thank You Bdawg,
I read that article and couldn’t help thinking about my experience, when I read the part that says nursing mothers can’t get pregnant.
I have 6 children and two of them were planned the 4th one and the 6th. The others except the first one were conceived while nursing the child born before. The first 3 children were all born within 2 1/2 years and the 4th and 5th were 13 months apart. I was nursing my 3 month old when I became pregnant with the 5th child, so apparently that natural method may not work for some women. I had 5 children by the time I was 27 and had my planned 6th child when I was 31 years old.
After that I only practiced abstinance, as that is the only sure method. Divorce followed abstinance. Men are not as understanding about natural birth control as the church seems to think they should be. In real life most men are not real thoughtful when it comes to using abstinance as birth control. That goes for Mormons as well as Catholics. There are exceptional men who do take into consideration their wives feelings and her emotional and physical health, before their own physical desires. But, I think they are the rarity in life.
My husband is a man like the latter and he is Catholic, but we are beyond child bearing age so it does not matter now. Except he was told by the Catholic church that we should live together as brother and sister, because he is divorced from his first wife who was Catholic. That is another story and I think I will start a thread on the subject of divorce. Again, thanks for the article, it somewhat clarifies the Catholic position on birth control methods.
BJ