LDS: Why no paid ministry?

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I know that it was only fairly recently that the leaders of the hierarchy in the LDS church began to receive a salary or stipend and that it was customary that others leaders, if they were not wealthy enough by their own means to support their families, were customarily appointed as directors of corporations owned by other, more affluent, LDS members: but I can’t find, in any of the standard works nor recall reading in The History of the Church when, or why, the practice of a ministry, free from sustenance from the church at any level, began or why it remains the practice.

I assume, from a number of readings, that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and perhaps a number of the early prophets were given sustenance in one form or the other and it seems that this was also the case with some of the early apostles. I may have run across some Biblical citations noted by LDS apologists that seem to sort of take things out of context in insisting that Christ instituted an “unpaid ministry” but none of these verses are inclusive of the verses of 1 Corinthians where Paul, in defending his reasoning NOT to receive sustenance for his preaching admits that “the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel”, yet he admits that this is one commandment that he is not following. And though his reasons may sound logical, he certainly doesn’t always abide by his own ‘rule’, as seen in Philippians 4 and certainly didn’t condemn those apostles and disciples who had come before him or would come after him for receiving sustenance - as long as they were preaching the true gospel which, I have to assume, LDS members expect of their leadership.

Although Paul’s letters are the only scriptural basis we have for looking at a paid/unpaid ministry, we also have the Didache - completely independent of Paul and yet so congruent with Paul in so many ways that we can be assured that Paul was preaching the “same gospel” as the Jerusalem church. And the Didache, now dated with it’s foundation in around 50 AD with some additions through 70 AD (and a minor addition no later than 150 AD, which has no bearing on this topic), does a good job of laying out the ground rules for members of the church, leaders of the church, sustenance to be received by those passing through, staying a while, joining the community, appointed to leadership roles, etc., and the ethical and economical rules set forth pretty plainly that some were, as Christ commanded, inclusive of “those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel”.

So what’s the story? Is there something in the exclusively LDS standard works that I’ve missed or is this merely a practice that developed - like callings on lasting for a specific time, for instance. And when practices change are they noted in a ‘manual’ of some sort? I am just assuming, of course, that there are manuals for the regional presidents, bishops, etc., on down to perhaps the ‘lowest’ calling (although I hate to call any calling which is believed to have been made directly by God ‘low’ - I simply mean that men with greater responsibilities in the hierarchy of the church must have some sort of reference to guide them as their responsibilities would incur more responsibility and time than, for example, the person called to Sunday childcare).

So what’s the scoop? What’s the story as to the practice of an unpaid ministry? How did it come about and what is the reasoning behind the practice?
 
Uh, if you look at the history of the LDS church they had a paid ministry for quite some time. It was only later that they moved to GAs only for pay. They received a “living allowance” and still do. They no longer put them on corporate boards but they also get royalties for writing books. Here is a good link for early lds finances:

signaturebooks.com/excerpts/hier2.htm#chap6

Currently no one has the slightest clue what LDS leaders are paid because they don’t publish financial reports. Looking at their lifestyles they all seem to do well but certainly don’t seem to live extravagantly. Of course you wonder…if nothing is amiss then why the secrecy on finances?
 
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majick275:
Uh, if you look at the history of the LDS church they had a paid ministry for quite some time. It was only later that they moved to GAs only for pay. They received a “living allowance” and still do. They no longer put them on corporate boards but they also get royalties for writing books. Here is a good link for early lds finances:

signaturebooks.com/excerpts/hier2.htm#chap6

Currently no one has the slightest clue what LDS leaders are paid because they don’t publish financial reports. Looking at their lifestyles they all seem to do well but certainly don’t seem to live extravagantly. Of course you wonder…if nothing is amiss then why the secrecy on finances?
Maj-

That’s one of the books on my ‘to be purchased in the future’ list and, had you not pointed me to the excerpt, I think I would have forgotten all about it - thanks for the link.

I do hope an LDS member will jump in and explain the unpaid bit… as well as why appointments to such important callings such as the bishopric, for instance, are for such a short duration, rather than being lifetime appointments - also a bit curious as to why there are no educational requirements for members of the hierarchy: in Apostolic times, there was the requirement that Bishops must be able to read and that, translated into the “modern” minimal requirements would seem to indicate that even priests, who may become Bishops, have similar contemporary education, such as a master’s degree, at least. The Catholic Church, of course, does place requirements on those who chose to enter the priesthood - it’s not as if the priesthood is an entrepreneurial business where self-taught business savvy and gumption opens the door of success. But those, I suppose, are topics for other threads: although both, the latter in particular, are troublesome to me - I like to think that the Pope, for instance, has more theological ‘book learning’ than myself and a fuller grasp of doctrine than I possess - but if I, as a good Mormon am so called, I could make my way up into the office of Prophet with no grasp of LDS theology or doctrine whatsoever.

Ah, as I said, topics for other threads…

You know, though, speaking of financial disclosures… I’ve never read through a Vatican budget closely enough to see what the Pope’s clothing allowance might be. I know that each Pope gets a lot of ‘freebies’ from both large and small manufacturers of vestments and he has a large selection of ‘hand me downs’ - but how many simars does he keep on hand - 3 or 4 that are frequently dry-cleaned, or a couple of dozen so that he does have to worry about laundry that often? And when zucchetti are exchanged - is the one that I have from Pope John Paul II of greater quality than the one I purchased to exchange, was mine looked upon as ‘cheap and an insult’ (even though it came from a highly respected Roman ecclesiastical tailor who knew the Pontiff’s zucchetto size), or does the Pope order cheap, watered silk zucchetti from sweat shops in China so that he can exchange them with every bum, such as myself, who are of such low class as to insist upon the exchange? Do we, as Catholics, really enjoy the FULL DISCLOSURE that we think we’re being given or are there some ‘hat tricks’ (pun!) of which we are kept unaware?

If the everyday dress for the LDS prophet is standard business attire, is it proper to ask for an exchange of a necktie? Would President Hinckley be sick to death of Angel Moroni neckties? Might he not prefer a nice Magdalen College red silk boat club necktie which, believe it are not, not many people have although they are extremely attractive, very affordable, and are a subtle way of promoting the crew of your alma mater?

Ah, I’m prattling on - should be asleep but am in some pain and cannot, at this time, find rest. So I am awake pondering both the imponderable and the troublingly silly…
 
I’ll share a little on this topic. I think the practice of unpaid appointments (callings) is one of the most powerful factors in the LDS church’s rapid growth and success. The three-fold mission of the church is to “Proclaim the Gospel, Redeem the Dead, and Perfect the Saints”. Focusing on the “Perfect the Saints” portion, it’s through church appointments that members increase their spiritually in large part, develop a relationship with their Savior and learn to overcome weaknesses. Would a Catholic Priest deny that his service and devotion to God in the exercise of his calling has helped him draw closer to God? So it is with LDS church members as they strife to fulfill their respective appointments.

All LDS members are supposed to have an appointment at any given time that can range from teaching Sunday-school to children to cleaning the building to leading a congregation as a Bishop or Stake President. Throughout an active members life one can expect to have a variety of callings which give a person a chance to focus on different things, give them an additional reason to show up at church every week, give them a variety of associations and friendships, etc. Research shows that a member that has a calling that is meaningful to them is more likely to be active and remain active in their church membership. So, it’s a win for the church and also a win for the individual.

On the topic of formal schooling as a prerequisite for certain church appointments, I don’t see this ever happening. The idea, from the LDS perspective, is that God issues church appointments through revelation. If you accept that callings come from God and He chooses to call a farmer with little formal education as a Bishop, Apostle or Prophet then who are you to argue? This seems consistent with Prophetic and Apostolic appointments in the New and Old Testaments.
 
I have to disagree. Many people have become inactive in LDS churches because untrained, unqualified people in leadershp positions bungled situations that were important to them. Bishops and stake presidents attempting to provide counseling for members with real problems is not a good thing. Others have felt overwhelmed and become depressed with thtir failure to achieve success in callings that they are not well suited to. The incessant drain on ones family in small wards/branches or ones with low activity rates for those who have to fill multiple callings with little or no help and absolutely no training. What was fine for Peter and Andrew is different than what is fine today. They apprenticed under Jesus himself. Most of us don’t get that these days. Nor do we get angelic tutors or the type of direct divine instruction that Moses received. The Lord has provided scripture, tradition, educational institutions, etc. and he expects us to use them. The theory that you can just take a shortcut with “the spirit” in ministry is (I think) lazy, self centered, arrogant and harmful.

I agree that involved members are more likely to remain active but I prefer to see the ministerial duties match the person’s qualifications. The other members tend to do better that way.
 
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Casen:
On the topic of formal schooling as a prerequisite for certain church appointments, I don’t see this ever happening. The idea, from the LDS perspective, is that God issues church appointments through revelation. If you accept that callings come from God and He chooses to call a farmer with little formal education as a Bishop, Apostle or Prophet then who are you to argue? This seems consistent with Prophetic and Apostolic appointments in the New and Old Testaments.
Are there any GC’s without college degrees? I doubt it very seriously. Every LDS bishop I’ve known(and I’ve known many) have shown themselves to be successful in business or acadamia.
So, there is an unwritten, but clearly present, “success” criteria that is used to evaluate potential leaders in the LDS Church. Can you show me a bishop or GC that has been a school custodian all their life? No, you can’t. You can say that God calls who he wills in the LDS Church, but it’s interesting that he almost always only calls those with money, education, and status to the highest offices.

My point is this. For a LDS to criticize other faiths because they have an educational standard for their clergy, and to claim that LDS “clergy” are chosen by God without respect to education, success, or status, is simply untrue, and hence, makes the criticism inconsistent. I would argue that LDS criteria of worldly success for their clergy is totally inconsistent with the New Testament notion of abandoning all wealth and worldly power.
 
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majick275:
I have to disagree. Many people have become inactive in LDS churches because untrained, unqualified people in leadershp positions bungled situations that were important to them. Bishops and stake presidents attempting to provide counseling for members with real problems is not a good thing. Others have felt overwhelmed and become depressed with thtir failure to achieve success in callings that they are not well suited to. The incessant drain on ones family in small wards/branches or ones with low activity rates for those who have to fill multiple callings with little or no help and absolutely no training. What was fine for Peter and Andrew is different than what is fine today. They apprenticed under Jesus himself. Most of us don’t get that these days. Nor do we get angelic tutors or the type of direct divine instruction that Moses received. The Lord has provided scripture, tradition, educational institutions, etc. and he expects us to use them. The theory that you can just take a shortcut with “the spirit” in ministry is (I think) lazy, self centered, arrogant and harmful.

I agree that involved members are more likely to remain active but I prefer to see the ministerial duties match the person’s qualifications. The other members tend to do better that way.
All I can say is that this must be a very strange figment of your own imagination. It bears no resemblance to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that I am familiar with.

amgid
 
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Tmaque:
Are there any GC’s without college degrees? I doubt it very seriously. Every LDS bishop I’ve known(and I’ve known many) have shown themselves to be successful in business or acadamia.
So, there is an unwritten, but clearly present, “success” criteria that is used to evaluate potential leaders in the LDS Church. Can you show me a bishop or GC that has been a school custodian all their life? No, you can’t. You can say that God calls who he wills in the LDS Church, but it’s interesting that he almost always only calls those with money, education, and status to the highest offices.

My point is this. For a LDS to criticize other faiths because they have an educational standard for their clergy, and to claim that LDS “clergy” are chosen by God without respect to education, success, or status, is simply untrue, and hence, makes the criticism inconsistent. I would argue that LDS criteria of worldly success for their clergy is totally inconsistent with the New Testament notion of abandoning all wealth and worldly power.
Gosh, I don’t remember anyone criticizing other faiths over their educational standard for clergy in this thread. As I recall the topic of this thread was the rational for LDS clergy not being paid and not having an educational or theological training prerequisite and that was why I responded.

Anyway, our last bishop did not have a college degree and I once had a bishop that was indeed a janitor, so I guess you’re wrong on that issue too. Again, the LDS response is that callings are issued through revelation and God may choose to call a man with lots or formal education or very little. However, why should it surprise anyone that most GAs and Bishops in the U.S. would have college education?
 
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majick275:
I have to disagree. Many people have become inactive in LDS churches because untrained, unqualified people in leadershp positions bungled situations that were important to them.
Sure, mistakes are made by the clergy in all faiths. Couldn’t I make the same claim of the well trained clergy in the Catholic Church? Unfortunately, anytime you have humans running things you’re going to have some mistakes.
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majick275:
What was fine for Peter and Andrew is different than what is fine today. They apprenticed under Jesus himself. Most of us don’t get that these days. Nor do we get angelic tutors or the type of direct divine instruction that Moses received. The Lord has provided scripture, tradition, educational institutions, etc. and he expects us to use them.
This quote reveals a lot about your beliefs. So, the scriptures don’t apply to us now days because, “times have changed.” Yes, I hear this argument a lot but I don’t believe it for a second. I submit that what was fine for Peter, Andrew, and Moses is indeed fine for us also. I also submit that angles do indeed still visit the earth as in ancient times.
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majick275:
The theory that you can just take a shortcut with “the spirit” in ministry is (I think) lazy, self centered, arrogant and harmful.
Be careful what you say; this “theory” is found throughout the Holy Scriptures. Following the guidance of the Holy Spirit is not a “shortcut”.
 
I’ve known lots of people in higher callings, such as bishops and stake presidents, that were not formally educated. It is interesting that even Joseph Smith falls under that category - a farmer without even completing elementary school. His further education came during his call as prophet and president of the Church, which is something I have also noticed that happens with ‘lower’ callings. The pressure of it impels people to go and train themselves in what they need. In fact, this is the general idea: you get called being inadequate, you study and get stronger, and you end up serving effectively. Sometimes that doesn’t happen, and I have seen it, but it isn’t as common as you would make it seem. So, here in Boston it is rare to find a bishop or other important Church official with little education. However, in more rural areas it is very common.

Keep in mind that the primary duties of a bishop (and anyone else for that matter) are to elevate the spirituality of his stewardship, such as a ward, and this is done personally with each member. Catholic priests have to learn lots of book stuff, but Mormon bishops need what only experience and the Spirit can teach them. Bishop school wouldn’t be that different from the MTC (and most have already been missionaries). Sometimes the educated get proud and rely too heavily on their own abilities and fall, so professional training really wouldn’t help, but might do the opposite. On the other hand, I have known some uneducated (by the world’s standards) members that have fulfilled callings extremely effectively.

As far as salary and all that stuff, good question. Wish I had an answer.
 
I know that many a faithful mormon wife prays that her husband never gets called to be a bishop. Since bishops are not paid they still have to work their day job and see to the needs of the ward. So you end up with two full time job and a family. The family looses time with dad. It is very difficult to keep all of those balls in the air at the same time without neglecting family, church or your day job. I know the BLESSINGS your family is supposed to receive make it all better but it is a real struggle for many faithful families. I think 5 years is a long time for one family to support these additional pressures. In the case of a retired of bishop without a family it can be less challenging but running a ward is alot of work. You have sister x with some problem that you have no education to deal with. You learn all about couple b’s marital problems. Then you have brother f,w,y that are having financial or personal problems calling you at home at all hours of the day or night. Not my idea a fun. I admire the dedication of those participating if not the system that requires these sacrifices.
 
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Jodi:
I know that many a faithful mormon wife prays that her husband never gets called to be a bishop. Since bishops are not paid they still have to work their day job and see to the needs of the ward. So you end up with two full time job and a family. The family looses time with dad. It is very difficult to keep all of those balls in the air at the same time without neglecting family, church or your day job. I know the BLESSINGS your family is supposed to receive make it all better but it is a real struggle for many faithful families. I think 5 years is a long time for one family to support these additional pressures. In the case of a retired of bishop without a family it can be less challenging but running a ward is alot of work. You have sister x with some problem that you have no education to deal with. You learn all about couple b’s marital problems. Then you have brother f,w,y that are having financial or personal problems calling you at home at all hours of the day or night. Not my idea a fun. I admire the dedication of those participating if not the system that requires these sacrifices.
Things could be worse!! What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger!! If you have faith you will get through it and you will grow as a person and as a follower of Jesus Christ. What could be more important than that?
 
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majick275:
I have to disagree. Many people have become inactive in LDS churches because untrained, unqualified people in leadershp positions bungled situations that were important to them. Bishops and stake presidents attempting to provide counseling for members with real problems is not a good thing. Others have felt overwhelmed and become depressed with thtir failure to achieve success in callings that they are not well suited to. The incessant drain on ones family in small wards/branches or ones with low activity rates for those who have to fill multiple callings with little or no help and absolutely no training. What was fine for Peter and Andrew is different than what is fine today. They apprenticed under Jesus himself. Most of us don’t get that these days. Nor do we get angelic tutors or the type of direct divine instruction that Moses received. The Lord has provided scripture, tradition, educational institutions, etc. and he expects us to use them. The theory that you can just take a shortcut with “the spirit” in ministry is (I think) lazy, self centered, arrogant and harmful.

I agree that involved members are more likely to remain active but I prefer to see the ministerial duties match the person’s qualifications. The other members tend to do better that way.
How many catholic’s have gone inactive or quit donating because of lawsuits caused by, we’ll call it bungling, by catholic clergy?
 
I don’t think Catholics have quit because of bungling untrained clergy. I think some have quit because CRIMINALS molested children when they were supposed to be serving as priests. I have no problem seeing that. We have a problem that we are still fixing. The same thing has happened in LDS churches too. THat makes the individuals wrong…not the church(es).

What I meant was that pulling people out of the audience (so to speak) and providing them no training and then having them perform very sensitive functions has in many cases been a problem. This was in reponse to the assertion that this was a strength of the LDS church.

Casen, I beleive very strongly that scriptures apply to us today. You missed my point. We have the bible now… Peter and company did not. They DID have Jesus in the flesh to teach them personally…most of us today do not. NOW we should use scripture AND tradition AND all the other things that GOD has provided for us so that we can serve him without having him here in the flesh on a daily basis like the Apostles did. Of copurse following the spirit is a good thing… But EXPECTING the spirit to lead you by the hand every step of the way is not what God intended. (slothful servant…) I also believe in angels but please…you don’t reaaly intend to imply that angels come down and train LDS priesthood leaders for their callings do you?

Chris, i think your bishop might have a different opinion on what his role is. You might be surprised how similar the needs are compared to what a parish priest handles.

amgid…I don’t know what you mean.

I haven’t been a bishop BUT when I was LDS I was an exec. sec. in one ward and an EQP in another and a counselor in the bishopric in another. I may not be an expert but i have been exposed to a number of LDS leadership positions and have a pretty good idea how they function.

I also go back to my earlier post on this thread for the history of this in the LDS church. They used to pay these guys now they don’t. What do they do with the money instead? We don’t know cuz they won’t say.
 
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majick275:
Uh, if you look at the history of the LDS church they had a paid ministry for quite some time. It was only later that they moved to GAs only for pay. They received a “living allowance” and still do. They no longer put them on corporate boards but they also get royalties for writing books. Here is a good link for early lds finances:

signaturebooks.com/excerpts/hier2.htm#chap6

Currently no one has the slightest clue what LDS leaders are paid because they don’t publish financial reports. Looking at their lifestyles they all seem to do well but certainly don’t seem to live extravagantly. Of course you wonder…if nothing is amiss then why the secrecy on finances?
Even though that book is a bit out of date (1994, I think, is the date Amazon cites as originally publication) that excerpt did answer a few questions about the ‘why’ of the ‘no paid ministry’ - very little of the answer having theological reasons with a few ‘dissenting’ opinions being based somewhat on theological principles: there really isn’t any short answer except to say that when there was a paid ministry it worked extraordinarily well in some instances and allowed some men to grow wealthy and, that as it grew or contracted, left some men almost poor and wanting while they still had to put in the time required for their callings but, at some periods, received little income from the church. The author makes a good point in saying that the early church (including the early 20th century) was much more communal, by need, than the present church in which not all of Utah is LDS and that the SLC hierarchy and the church’s investments are not tied directly to the welfare of it’s members any longer.

The excerpt also reminded me of the Time magazine article of 1997 and there’s one point in that article which just makes you want to cringe and think that although LDS leaders, by LDS standards, need no knowledge of LDS doctrine, they should at least (maybe) carry around a copy of Gospel Principles should they be asked a relatively simple question! While it’s been argued that Joseph Smith had little formal education and while one might certainly fault his doctrines I still maintain that he was unusually brilliant and likely possessed a near ‘photographic’ memory. Yes, some could point to his ‘different versions’ of the First Vision to pooh-pooh my last comment but I don’t think the different versions had anything to do with his memory.

Two other things from the excerpt that I thought interesting:
  1. it seems a common myth (from both my LDS friends and my LDS missionaries) that all those who are called to the GA are successful businessmen before they are called so they can afford to donate time to the church without losing income. That, just from the number of examples given, is just plain myth. The other thing I thought interesting was the discussion of Hinkley, in particular, having no prior management experience yet, upon his called as a GA, accepting directorships in 10 corporations and in his desire to learn from business leaders hardly slowed down so that he might keep up with his responsibilities both as a corporate and a church leader.
  2. In 1875 Brigham Young estimated his net worth to be $600,000. That’s over $10 million by today’s calculations so it’s easy to understand why some who were barely making ends meet during that time might be a bit suspicious that it was Young’s position in the church that allowed him access to and knowledge of ‘ground floor’ investment opportunities.
Although the excerpt did not go into much detail about finances at the stake and ward levels I can well understand how a man might secretly pray that he is never called to be a bishop. If he lacks the financial means to carry the burden of two jobs with one paycheck, he may be likely to see the calling as more of a curse. Similarly, should he have no education (much less experience) in pastoral matters or, like Hinckley, simply ‘not know’ portions of basic LDS doctrine, I can see where that might prove embarrassing.

The excerpt implied that it was likely that the LDS church would address the question of a paid ministry as well as the manner in which tithes monies are used and invested and that - like doctrine and scripture - money management in the LDS church would be see continual change as what works well in one decade may not work in the next. The latter just makes common sense and the former - paid ministers - is dealt with differently now than it was 11 years ago or 8 years ago.

I don’t even recall (only that it was a topic of conversation within a thread s number of months ago) whether the LDS church has again begun publishing an annual financial disclosure statement - anyone know?

…continued…
 
…continued…

All in all, my original question hasn’t been answered, save from external reading (and particularly the excerpt cited by majick in which the answer seems to be: “we’re not quite sure about the idea of a paid ministry at certain levels, but we’re certainly taking the matter into consideration!”

As to my second original question - as to whether there was a ‘manual’ of any sort, I don’t think anyone has answered, only suggested that to be called for the office of Bishop, for example, one need not have any training of any sort: the answer to both questions, from the LDS perspective, seems to be that God will provide and that he would not have made these callings manifest if whom he called was not up for the job. I would say that we, too, in the Catholic Church, believe the same of men who are called to positions within the hierarchy of the Church but that we believe that God has even asked more of them than God requires, for instance, of the LDS bishopric: a lifetime commitment, a willingness to place Christ above family (more easily said than practiced!), a willingness to formally study that which God has revealed, a willingness to study pastoral situations with which one might not be familiar but is likely to encounter, etc. As I’ve often heard the comment that an LDS bishop may only be ‘caught’ at home on a Monday night and that he has hundreds (if not thousands) of wives - rather than just one - to deal with during his tenure as bishop I can see that the LDS bishopric might take more out of a man than he is able to give.

The paid (or not paid) ministry brings up so many questions, really, that I would like to ask but I’m realizing that the first question may have been answered and, if so, then I will go onto my other questions:

Can we conclude, then, that the philosophy - however it may be practiced - of having a ‘limited’ paid ministry is derived from historical observation of that which works best in the LDS church and is not based upon any theological constraint to be found in any LDS standard works? And that this conclusion in no way casts aspersions upon the LDS church nor churches who make it a practice to pay it’s ministry (even if so small an amount that it may as well be called a stipend, nor - however loathe I am to say it - those ‘mega-churches’ who may take in many millions per year and pay it’s senior minister millions in return)? Is this a fair statement that can be agreed upon by all - LDS and non-LDS?
 
The same thing has happened in LDS churches too.
Theoretically, it can happen in any church, but realistically speaking, it has only been widespread in the Catholic Church. Relatively, there is no comparison. I’m not saying that this is proof against your church, but I am saying that training priests for years doesn’t do much good if they aren’t righteous examples to their Catholic community (and to the world around them).
What I meant was that pulling people out of the audience (so to speak) and providing them no training and then having them perform very sensitive functions has in many cases been a problem.
Majick, what kind of training would you think is appropriate for a bishop so that he not bungle things up sometimes?
Of copurse following the spirit is a good thing… But EXPECTING the spirit to lead you by the hand every step of the way is not what God intended. (slothful servant…) I also believe in angels but please…you don’t reaaly intend to imply that angels come down and train LDS priesthood leaders for their callings do you?
Sure, it’s called the ministering of angels, and it happens. I would agree with you that we shouldn’t expect to be led along the whole way, because God does give us tools, and He wants to let us grow, which can’t happen if every decision is made and executed for us. But, to be humble enough to be able to be led is what counts. That’s where aspects like righteousness come into play. A wicked man simply cannot fulfill the position of bishop or Catholic priest well, no matter how much training he has. Those who ernestly seek the counsel of the Lord are those who succeed.
Chris, i think your bishop might have a different opinion on what his role is. You might be surprised how similar the needs are compared to what a parish priest handles.
I’m sure that essentially the jobs aren’t that different, but is not the role of a bishop to be the shepherd of the flock, to lead and guide and help along? I’m sure my bishop would agree with me. Of course, there are other skills that need to be developed in order to do the first properly: public speaking, organization, knowledge of the scriptures and understanding of Church regulation, etc, but if he fails in what I have said is most important then all the rest is meaningless.
I haven’t been a bishop BUT when I was LDS I was an exec. sec. in one ward and an EQP in another and a counselor in the bishopric in another. I may not be an expert but i have been exposed to a number of LDS leadership positions and have a pretty good idea how they function.
I learned something very important from being a missionary. You can go through all the steps, do the do, but be really bad at it and not have much success. Or, you can do all that and do it with the Spirit, being humble and righteous, and success is guarenteed, even if you’re not the best teacher or the most studied. For example, once we were teaching a woman who I was expounding to, really reasoning with her and stumping her at every turn. But, she only got more defiant and unwilling to listen. Then, my companion (we were on splits) gave his testimony and she started to open up. She progressed quite far because of that one testimony. So, there is just doing, and then there is being, really understanding your responibility and having the desire to do it.
 
Primarily I don’t think LDS bishops should be counseling people. They should send them straight to LDS social services and not try to “triage” themselves. I thik Bishops should get training in doctrine…of course that would require firmly established doctrine…(but that’s for another thread) They should get some type of basic pastoral training so that they understand the role, basic church administration, fundamentals of dealing with people, how to conduct effective meetings (planning and coordination more than services)

I think you greatly underestimate teh problems of abuse that the LDs church has encountered recently. I am of course biased since I had it in my old ward where it was more “in my face”. I think it speaks volumes that teh Utah State Supreme Court (all of whom are mormon) found it necessary to rule that victims of LDS abuse may NOT sue the CoJCoLDS for damages…only the individuals. That kind of changes the public view of what is happening don’t you think? Abuse by persons in authority has risen dramatically for all types of authority figures, priests, teachers, coaches, ministers, doctors, police…you name it… morals are getting worse AND in the information age we hear about it more.
It’s a problem for all of us.

I am well versed in the ministering of angels and that is not the same as Moroni allegedly coming to JS room and instructing him over a period of years. Too often people use “led by the spirit” as an excuse to not bother with any other available means.

Ben,
There is a manual (actually two) for LDS bishops, stake presidents, their counselors and other priesthood leaders. The handbook of instructions for priesthood leaders and the handbook for auxiliaries. They are each the size of a your average lesson manual. (think about half a third of the catechism) and briefly cover roles, responsibilities, policies and procedures. Thety are NOT scripture and flexibility is given to Bishops and Stake pres. in applying them. They are kept heavily resricted. You can’t buy them, they don’t loan them out and they sued utlm for displaying them online. I don’t know why the secrecy because in my reading of them I never saw anything that I would consider outrageous or damaging to the LDS church.
 
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Jodi:
I know that many a faithful mormon wife prays that her husband never gets called to be a bishop.
That is unheard of in the LDS Church. Every faithful Mormon wife would consider it a great honor, privilege, and blessing, to support a righteous husband in the sacred calling of a bishop; and thousands upon thousands do, year in and year out.

1Timothy 3:

1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
The same reply applies in essence to the rest of your post. None of it is true.

amgid
 
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