LDS Women's Conference - Eve's transgression: courageous and wise?

[LivingWaters7]

Perhaps “vilified” is too strong a word. But you would call her a sinner would you not? And that through her, original sin came into the world. Certainly Catholics do not believe she is an example for women to follow or there would be no need for this thread.

Yes, Adam and Eve were sinners. As we read in the Bible, they disobeyed a commandment of God (i.e. not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil). Disobeying a commandment is a sin. Hence, they sinned (indeed, they were the “original” sinners).

Catholics believe that Christians have great examples to follow in the New Adam and Eve, Jesus Christ and Mary. While Catholics believe that Adam and Eve are in Heaven (again, their Feast Day is on December 24th), and thus can be seen as examples of the forgiveness of sin by God through repentance, and that there is much to learn from the life of Adam and Eve, we have better examples to follow in the New Adam and New Eve of the New Covenant. That, to me, makes much more sense that looking to the Old Adam and the Old Eve (who aren’t completely disregarded anyway).

 

[LivingWaters7]

So the fall ended up being a good thing and not only good but something better then we would have had without the fall. By disobeying God Christ was sent into the world and through him we are lifted above our pre-fallen state. Do you see the contradiction you have created?

No, there is no contradiction. And please note that I am choosing my words very carefully. The Fall per se was not a good thing. As already mentioned, sin is never good. Doing wrong is never good, let alone doing something wrong against God. However, God while justly punishing for the wrongdoing, can, and did, choose to have good come from it. The Fall itself was not good, however it resulted in good things coming from it. This is a very simple concept to understand, as we see this all the time today. For example, 9/11 was a tragedy, a horrific event. However, many things came from it, such as various laws, how we secure planes, airport security, etc. Or the AMBER alert system, which resulted from the kidnapping of various children. Would we regard the kidnappings or the terrorist attacks to be “good”? Most certainly not. However, good things did result from them. That is why there is no contradiction in what I’m saying, since that is the Catholic understanding of the Fall. God didn’t want us to Fall; He didn’t want us to disobey Him. However, because we did (and He knew we would), He decided to let something good come from it. In contrast, the LDS view is that God wanted us to Fall, and actually set up a conundrum where we had to disobey Him to obey Him. That is the actual problem.

While LDS may view God as having given two contradictory commandments (where Adam and Eve couldn’t reproduce unless they disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit), Catholics do not hold that view. It is believed that they very well would have been able to fulfill God’s command to be fruitful and multiply without disobeying His command to not eat the fruit. It was not necessary.

 

[exiled]

Forgive my simplicity, but we don’t know what God would have done, what victory there may have been, if Adam and Eve had never sinned at all. If they had been victorious over Satan then Jesus would not have had to come into the world, suffer and die and be resurrected, but perhaps there would have been something else we can’t imagine.

IMO, the point is that it is not because of Adam and Eve’s actions that we receive all of the supernatural gifts, but God’s actions. The LDS seem to credit Eve, not God. Even Catholics are very careful to clarify that Mary’s “yes” was her cooperation with God’s Grace.

 

[iepuras]

Thanks for your posts, LW. Enlightening as always. Thanks for the info on the feast day of Adam and Eve. It gives me comfort that they are in heaven. December 24 is a fitting feast day for them.

 

[Janderich]

No, there is no contradiction. And please note that I am choosing my words very carefully. The Fall per se was not a good thing. As already mentioned, sin is never good. Doing wrong is never good, let alone doing something wrong against God. However, God while justly punishing for the wrongdoing, can, and did, choose to have good come from it. The Fall itself was not good, however it resulted in good things coming from it. This is a very simple concept to understand, as we see this all the time today. For example, 9/11 was a tragedy, a horrific event. However, many things came from it, such as various laws, how we secure planes, airport security, etc. Or the AMBER alert system, which resulted from the kidnapping of various children. Would we regard the kidnappings or the terrorist attacks to be “good”? Most certainly not. However, good things did result from them. That is why there is no contradiction in what I’m saying, since that is the Catholic understanding of the Fall. God didn’t want us to Fall; He didn’t want us to disobey Him. However, because we did (and He knew we would), He decided to let something good come from it. In contrast, the LDS view is that God wanted us to Fall, and actually set up a conundrum where we had to disobey Him to obey Him. That is the actual problem.

While LDS may view God as having given two contradictory commandments (where Adam and Eve couldn’t reproduce unless they disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit), Catholics do not hold that view. It is believed that they very well would have been able to fulfill God’s command to be fruitful and multiply without disobeying His command to not eat the fruit. It was not necessary.

But in this case we are not simply talking about good coming from an evil act. No, we are talking about greater blessings then we would have received if the fall had not occurred. Here is Paul again, “The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21) See it is a chain of events, one leading to the next, the fall leading to the atonement, the atonement leading to eternal life. As you said it was all known in advance.

I don’t think we will see eye to eye on the details of the fall. But let’s look at this “contradictory commandment” issue. God follows eternal law. It is not about God giving contradictory commandments. It is about cause and effect. God in essence presented the facts, “If you want to remain in your current state, don’t eat the fruit”. In such a state, “all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end” (2 Ne 2:22) While this was a happy state this was not a state of progression. In order to enter a state of progression Adam and Eve had to fall. In this fallen state they could experience greater contradictions of both good and evil. Moreover, since the state they were in was eternal and was a static state, there could obviously be no children. The entire idea of children involves growing, learning, and progressing.

They made the right choice. I join with Elder Eyring in thanking Eve for what she has done and commending her as an example along with Adam.

 

[LivingWaters7]

But in this case we are not simply talking about good coming from an evil act. No, we are talking about greater blessings then we would have received if the fall had not occurred. Here is Paul again, “The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 5:20-21) See it is a chain of events, one leading to the next, the fall leading to the atonement, the atonement leading to eternal life. As you said it was all known in advance.

None of this changes what I’ve already stated. Breaking a commandment is a sin, and God brought good out of a sinful act. Whether it’s greater blessings or not (and Catholic teaching is quite clear that it is greater blessings), the fact is that good came out of a sinful act. And yes, God, in His omniscience, knew and knows all that would and does happen. Very simple.

I don’t think we will see eye to eye on the details of the fall. But let’s look at this “contradictory commandment” issue. God follows eternal law. It is not about God giving contradictory commandments. It is about cause and effect. God in essence presented the facts, “If you want to remain in your current state, don’t eat the fruit”. In such a state, “all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end” (2 Ne 2:22) While this was a happy state this was not a state of progression. In order to enter a state of progression Adam and Eve had to fall. In this fallen state they could experience greater contradictions of both good and evil. Moreover, since the state they were in was eternal and was a static state, there could obviously be no children. The entire idea of children involves growing, learning, and progressing.

This is a Latter-day Saint view of the condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden. As mentioned before, Catholics do not share such a view. We don’t believe that they were static, nor do we believe that they were unable to fulfill God’s command to be fruitful and multiply prior to the Fall.

I don’t see how God following eternal law (what is that?) changes the fact that the LDS view results in contradicting/conflicting commandments. God commanded them to:

-be fruitful and multiply
-not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil

In the LDS view, they couldn’t be fruitful and multiply unless they ate the forbidden fruit. God therefore gave conflicting commandments.

They made the right choice. I join with Elder Eyring in thanking Eve for what she has done and commending her as an example along with Adam.

I join with Catholics in thanking God for bringing great blessings from tragedies (including today), am glad that Adam and Eve repented of their sins, proved to be examples in many things, and are now Heavenly saints (commemorated on December 24th on the Feast Day of Adam and Eve, as well as on Forgiveness Sunday in the East), and am even more thankful for the New Adam and the New Eve of the New and Everlasting Covenant.

 

[Tarquin]

They made the right choice. I join with Elder Eyring in thanking Eve for what she has done and commending her as an example along with Adam.

Janderich, you seem to be arguing that because of Catholic teachings, Mormonism teachings are correct. Some Catholics here have said things were in some way “better” for us today, as the result of the fall, then they would have been for us today, if there had been no fall. I’m passing over a lot of middle steps in the reasoning, please forgive me. I want to get to my main point. You are saying that Eve made the right choice. Mormons seem to think that Eve “fell” voluntarily. But you must know that that, according to Mormon teachings, is not true. Many Mormon leaders have expressed the opinion that Adam and Eve understood the commandment(s), and they have expressed their personal opinions that Adam and Eve voluntarily chose one over the other. They were teaching their own personal opinions, not presenting canonized doctrines. For neither Adam nor Eve, according to Mormon doctrine, fully understood the commandments, and neither Adam nor Eve, according to Mormon doctrine, voluntarily and with understanding chose whether or not to obey one commandment or the other.

They were tricked!

And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world. - Moses 4:6

For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.- Ether 8:25

And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness. - 2 Nephi 9:9

For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting themselves to the devil. - Mosiah 16:3

It was not God’s will that Adam and Eve fall.
It was Satan’s will that he make Adam and Eve “like unto himself”.
For that reason, Satan “sought to beguile Eve,” and succeeded:
Satan was “that being who beguiled our first parents,”
and that - his beguiling of our first parents - “was the cause of their fall”.

The reason that Adam and Eve wound up on one path rather than another was not the result of an intelligent, informed, wise decision. It was the result of having been fooled by Satan. Their foolish “choice” was the result of their own gullibility - according to the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price.

The standard works are the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. - J. Fielding Smith

 

[RebeccaJ]

So the fall ended up being a good thing and not only good but something better then we would have had without the fall. By disobeying God Christ was sent into the world and through him we are lifted above our pre-fallen state. Do you see the contradiction you have created?

Please read all of Romans chapter 5, and then continue onto the first verse of chapter 6.

“What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not!”

The doctrines of sin and grace are central to Christianity. We are in NEED of Jesus, who is Salvation, precisely because we are sinners.

There is no contradiction. God does not desire that we sin, God desires that we walk in the light. God has created us with free will, so we can love Him freely. Sin is an abuse of free will, but God does not abandon us in our sins. Christ died for us while we were still sinners. He is God’s grace, fully revealed.

 

[Janderich]

Janderich, you seem to be arguing that because of Catholic teachings, Mormonism teachings are correct. Some Catholics here have said things were in some way “better” for us today, as the result of the fall, then they would have been for us today, if there had been no fall. I’m passing over a lot of middle steps in the reasoning, please forgive me. I want to get to my main point. You are saying that Eve made the right choice. Mormons seem to think that Eve “fell” voluntarily. But you must know that that, according to Mormon teachings, is not true. Many Mormon leaders have expressed the opinion that Adam and Eve understood the commandment(s), and they have expressed their personal opinions that Adam and Eve voluntarily chose one over the other. They were teaching their own personal opinions, not presenting canonized doctrines. For neither Adam nor Eve, according to Mormon doctrine, fully understood the commandments, and neither Adam nor Eve, according to Mormon doctrine, voluntarily and with understanding chose whether or not to obey one commandment or the other.

They were tricked!

It was not God’s will that Adam and Eve fall.
It was Satan’s will that he make Adam and Eve “like unto himself”.
For that reason, Satan “sought to beguile Eve,” and succeeded:
Satan was “that being who beguiled our first parents,”
and that - his beguiling of our first parents - “was the cause of their fall”.

The reason that Adam and Eve wound up on one path rather than another was not the result of an intelligent, informed, wise decision. It was the result of having been fooled by Satan. Their foolish “choice” was the result of their own gullibility - according to the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price.

Hi Tarquin, I suggest you investigate the word “beguile” in more depth. It means much more then tricked. It implies a very internal process wherein Eve considered her choice and finally determined to eat the fruit. A non-LDS scholar has described it in these words:

Furthermore, the woman’s vocabulary of seduction is also remarkable in that she has chosen a verb that has retained an extraordinary flavor in Hebrew and is only used on rare and unusual occasions. Translations that opt for “deceived” or “trick” (instead of “beguile”) lose the wealth and innovation of the woman’s lexicon. By using “beguile” she says not only that the act of eating was triggered by an inner state, but also that this inner state was so puzzling, that only a rare and suggestive verb could fully capture its significance. (Woman at the Window: Biblical Tales of Oppression and Escape, Nehama Aschkenasy, p 128)

LDS scriptures give more details to the account, pointing to the fact that the Lord wanted them to chose, “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other” (2 Ne 2:16). The Bible also has subtle clues. The tree is not described in negative terms, rather Genesis says, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto here husband with here; and he did eat” (Gen 3:6). See, Eve is not simply following Satan because she knows nothing. She understands it is good for her to eat, she realizes it will make her wise.

 

[RebeccaJ]

LDS scriptures give more details to the account, pointing to the fact that the Lord wanted them to chose, “Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other” (2 Ne 2:16). The Bible also has subtle clues. The tree is not described in negative terms, rather Genesis says, “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto here husband with here; and he did eat” (Gen 3:6). See, Eve is not simply following Satan because she knows nothing. She understands it is good for her to eat, she realizes it will make her wise.

The Bible teaches more on the temptations of Satan, and Jesus provides for us the example to follow (not Eve).

The three-fold temptation as described in 1 John

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1 - lust of the flesh (lust, physical desires)
2 - lust of the eyes (avarice)
3 - pride of life (pride)

**The temptation of Eve
**
Gen. 3

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

1 - good for food (physical desire)
2 - pleasant to the eyes (avarice)
3 - desired to make one wise (pride)

The temptation of Christ:

Luke 4

1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.
3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

1 - hunger for food (physical desire)
2 - see the world as a kingdom of riches for the taking (avarice)
3 - prideful show of power (pride)

Disobedience to God is not what Eve’s response should have been. Jesus response to the temptations of Satan provides for us the example to follow:

**1 - That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

2 - Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

3 - Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.**

Of course the tree was desirable, no one believes otherwise. Christians see in the Tree of Life a type of Christ. The One Who was raised up on a tree, and from whom eternal life flows.

Shall we discuss more? In Deuteronomy 17:16-17, Moses commanded the king of Israel to restrain from the threefold temptations. To not multiply his horses (pride in military might), to not have a great number of wives (lust), and to not accumulate gold and silver (avarice).

Stop following the temptations of Satan, and turn to Him.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Brilliant, Rebecca! Thanks for posting this.

Paul