LDS worship

[Pepband_Mom]

Re: Marriage in Heaven: Indeed was spoken by our Lord Matt 22:20. Thank’s for correcting my typo! I attempt to quote sources correctly. Mea Culpa:blush:

However, the point is NO MARRIAGE in heaven is it not. It is what it is - NO marriage is NO marriage - the Lord speaks very plainly - No confusion here on the Lord’s part, only on the part of human beings with their “other gospel” about 1800 years too late on the scene that contradicts the Bible too many times to be deemed as credible.

 

[Stephen168]

Do you have an example of this Greek Philosophy changing Christian belief before the last Apostle died?

!

I don’t blame you for not answering
Many a Mormon makes the claim but none have every proved it. More Mormon fiction.

 

[pmccombs]

…keep stanidng around talking about the unreal nature of truth. Maybe you’ll eventually stub your toe on a rock.

Maybe I will… maybe I will! I sometimes get little pebbles now and then.

But, don’t bother to notice that you’ve painted yourself into a corner. Even if you think it is colorful paint. (I always pictured nihilism as black.)

Yes, nihilism can be very black indeed. But when some gem or other interrupts it, the beauty of the thing is made all the more stunning.

 

[pmccombs]

Well, say what you will, but God made it clear what awaits false prophets. I am sorry if that offends you

Ahh! Have mercy on me! I Concede! I deny everything. Or admit everything, whichever helps most.

This is, after all, a Catholic website. Keep moving forward, but for heaven’s sake, have some pity on us poor Mormons–and always remember us in your prayers.

 

[pmccombs]

I don’t blame you for not answering
Many a Mormon makes the claim but none have every proved it. More Mormon fiction.

Sorry I didn’t get back to you. Only, now I have to get out my books in order make a citation… and all of my theology books are put away while the library is being remodeled!

But the passage I am thinking of comes from either John Milbank or Oliver Simon in the Routlege book called “A Radical Orthodoxy Reader.” The essay discusses, to my surprise, the development of Christian theology and how Greek philosophy played its part in that. I had always thought that orthodox Christianity would try to distance itself from such an admission, but the essay took a definite stand about it that made me think even Orthodox Christians believe God is guiding them and refining their understanding, even through external sources like the Greeks.

In view of that reading, I thought perhaps the Mormons had gotten their ideas wrong about orthodox Christians like Catholics, but as it seems to surprise you as much as it does me, perhaps I misread my book or else you have a different understanding than the theologians.

It seems that I’ve also read from one of your popes something to the effect that the Church owns the canon and not the other way around, which again, was surprising to me as a Mormon.

That would be an interesting thread for me to read, but probably the topic belongs in some other forum than this one.

 

[TexanKnight]

Ahh! Have mercy on me! I Concede! I deny everything. Or admit everything, whichever helps most.

This is, after all, a Catholic website. Keep moving forward, but for heaven’s sake, have some pity on us poor Mormons–and always remember us in your prayers.

It matters not whether you admit or deny. The truth is the truth. Can’t be changed. Can;t be faked…though Joseph tried.

And yes, I pray for all of you

Be blessed

 

[Jerusha]

The essay discusses, to my surprise, the development of Christian theology and how Greek philosophy played its part in that. I had always thought that orthodox Christianity would try to distance itself from such an admission, but the essay took a definite stand about it that made me think even Orthodox Christians believe God is guiding them and refining their understanding, even through external sources like the Greeks.

God spoke to the Greeks, but it was muddled with some of their traditions. The Early Christians were influenced by Greek thought. However they tossed anthropomorphic gods working in a council, among other ideas. Do you want me to add parallels to THAT from the writings of Joseph Smith?

The Early Christians fought against Gnostic heresies which took too much from Greek and Roman thought, particularly that which was incompatible with Jewish tradition. Mormons grabbed those heresies and ran with them, transforming Mormonism as stated in the best of the BoM into a mockery of Christianity. But, of course, what else can you expect from a religion that took some beautiful passages from Isaiah and transformed them into anti-Semitic drivel? That is the WORST of the BoM.

 

[Stephen168]

Sorry I didn’t get back to you. Only, now I have to get out my books in order make a citation… and all of my theology books are put away while the library is being remodeled!

But the passage I am thinking of comes from either John Milbank or Oliver Simon in the Routlege book called “A Radical Orthodoxy Reader.” The essay discusses, to my surprise, the development of Christian theology and how Greek philosophy played its part in that. I had always thought that orthodox Christianity would try to distance itself from such an admission, but the essay took a definite stand about it that made me think even Orthodox Christians believe God is guiding them and refining their understanding, even through external sources like the Greeks.

In view of that reading, I thought perhaps the Mormons had gotten their ideas wrong about orthodox Christians like Catholics, but as it seems to surprise you as much as it does me, perhaps I misread my book or else you have a different understanding than the theologians.

It seems that I’ve also read from one of your popes something to the effect that the Church owns the canon and not the other way around, which again, was surprising to me as a Mormon.

That would be an interesting thread for me to read, but probably the topic belongs in some other forum than this one.

Nice response, but you didn’t answer the question. I’m still left believing it is because there is no answer.

 

[Stephen168]

The Early Christians were influenced by Greek thought.

But did the “influence” change Apostolic teaching? And did the change, as a sign of the “Great Apostasy,” happen when the last Apostle died? These are the Mormon claims, which don’t seem to have any proof.

 

[Jerusha]

But did the “influence” change Apostolic teaching? And did the change, as a sign of the “Great Apostasy,” happen when the last Apostle died? These are the Mormon claims, which don’t seem to have any proof.

The influence did not change Jesus’ teachings, founded upon Jewish traditions, and freed from the excessive burdens of the law.

Mormons are fond of projectng their own shortcomings onto others. They are experts at mote and beam.

 

[pmccombs]

Nice response, but you didn’t answer the question. I’m still left believing it is because there is no answer.

Let me try again, a little more directly this time.

Q: Do you have an example of this Greek Philosophy changing Christian belief before the last Apostle died?

A: Greek philosophy influenced the early Christian belief regarding the ontology of God. A shift in this belief occurred during the scholastic period with John Duns Scotus (c. 1300 AD) and his idea of the univocity of being, in which it is taught that God exists in the same essential way that other things in the universe exist. In this regard, Duns Scotus leaves the Thomistic school and joins an Aristotlean one. This development–a changing Orthodox view of God originating in and influenced by Greek thought–is described by the orthodox theological movement known as Radical Orthodoxy to which numerous orthodox Christian theologians subscribe. Radical Orthodoxy seeks to reassert some Thomistic teachings in orthodox theology in order to counter the modern tendency toward atheism fueled in part by a flawed ontology of God adopted by orthodox Christianity.

At least, that is what I understand from my readings. I am an avid student of religious history and theology.

 

[pmccombs]

But did the “influence” change Apostolic teaching? And did the change, as a sign of the “Great Apostasy,” happen when the last Apostle died? These are the Mormon claims, which don’t seem to have any proof.

Mormons believe there was a great apostasy and that original Christianity was corrupted. Mormon doctrine doesn’t currently claim a specific time for the apostasy, but that the death of the apostles contributed to that through a removal of divine authority from the earth. I think in most Mormons’ minds, apostasy was a gradual thing.

Although I am a Mormon, I think it unlikely that there was ever an apostasy. I have reason to believe that it is quite improbable that Jesus founded any Church at all. I personally don’t think that “orthodoxy” is a very good idea. But that’s just my personal view in which I don’t encourage anybody, Mormon or Catholic, to believe.

When orthodox theologians discuss the influence of Greek thought and the developing understanding of God, they are making a claim similar to Mormons that God is guiding their Church, not that apostasy happened because ideas have changed. Don’t mistake me on this matter! Do you think your arguing with a Mormon apologist? I’m not trying to establish some apostasy doctrine to bolster a Mormonism in which I am myself skeptical; I’m pointing out that orthodoxy has developed over the years and that orthodox theologians are clearly aware of this and see the hand of God in it. In other words, God is still actively involved in the progression of the Church, which is a claim that Mormons think is unique only to them. Apparently you think so too.

 

[pmccombs]

The Early Christians fought against Gnostic heresies which took too much from Greek and Roman thought, particularly that which was incompatible with Jewish tradition. Mormons grabbed those heresies and ran with them, transforming Mormonism as stated in the best of the BoM into a mockery of Christianity. But, of course, what else can you expect from a religion that took some beautiful passages from Isaiah and transformed them into anti-Semitic drivel? That is the WORST of the BoM.

Do you know what this language reminds me of? Something I might find on an atheist forum. Do you realize that there are many people who believe that the New Testament is anti-Semitic drivel and the Old Testament mere evidence of primitive, bloody and unjust religion from Yet Another Malicious Deity? It always amazes me that a people who have such serious claims leveled against their own scriptures and faith would propagate that same sort of thing against the faith of others.

 

[Stephen168]

Let me try again, a little more directly this time.

Q: Do you have an example of this Greek Philosophy changing Christian belief before the last Apostle died?

A: Greek philosophy influenced the early Christian belief regarding the ontology of God. A shift in this belief occurred during the scholastic period with John Duns Scotus (c. 1300 AD) and his idea of the univocity of being, in which it is taught that God exists in the same essential way that other things in the universe exist. In this regard, Duns Scotus leaves the Thomistic school and joins an Aristotlean one. This development–a changing Orthodox view of God originating in and influenced by Greek thought–is described by the orthodox theological movement known as Radical Orthodoxy to which numerous orthodox Christian theologians subscribe. Radical Orthodoxy seeks to reassert some Thomistic teachings in orthodox theology in order to counter the modern tendency toward atheism fueled in part by a flawed ontology of God adopted by orthodox Christianity.

At least, that is what I understand from my readings. I am an avid student of religious history and theology.

So your answer is no, you do not.

 

[pmccombs]

So your answer is no, you do not.

My original claim was, “orthodox theologians freely admit the influence of Greek philosophy on Christian belief.” You seemed to take exception to that, but I think I’ve established it well enough by citing orthodox theologians who make the claim that philosophy has changed the Christian concept of god over the years. They demonstrate a progression from early Thomistic and Platonic understandings through a Scholastic phase influenced by Aristotle. While Mormons might think that’s a good example of apostasy because it’s tied to “the philosophy of men”, the theologians who are talking about it say it’s evidence of God guiding the Church.

What were we arguing about again? Maybe you can clarify to me the crux of the issue. You said something about “Christian belief before the last apostle died,” which I’m not sure has any relation to my claims. Whatever the case may be, you don’t feel that I’m answering your question, or we don’t understand each other.

 

[Stephen168]

My original claim was,
pmccombs;9377159:

Mormons are convinced that Christianity entered apostasy, as foretold in prophecy (Amos 8:11), within the first century AD. Orthodox theologians freely admit the influence of Greek philosophy on Christian belief; Mormons have a problem with that (we have Satan himself describing it as, “the philosophy of men, mingled with scripture”).

You seemed to take exception to that, but I think I’ve established it well enough by citing orthodox theologians who make the claim that philosophy has changed the Christian concept of god over the years. They demonstrate a progression from early Thomistic and Platonic understandings through a Scholastic phase influenced by Aristotle.

Like other Mormons, you link the Apostasy with Greek Philosophy changing Christian belief within the first century. I asked for an example of a change: Christ and the Apostles taught _______ and because of the Greek idea of _________, Christians were teaching ________ by the year 101AD. You seem to make the same claim over and over without an example.

 

[epan]

The temple is also where people had to swear to allow themsewlves to be killed by having their throats cut or by having their bowels cut out. It is also where a Catholic Priest is the agent of Satan and we find out that Jesus and Michael made the earth and Michael became Adam

What?

 

[TheExorcist]

What?

It wasnt a Catholic priest, it was a Protestant minister…from what I’ve read and hear from people who have been endowed pre-1990. I was endowed in 1994 and that had been taken out by then.

 

[TexanKnight]

It wasnt a Catholic priest, it was a Protestant minister…from what I’ve read and hear from people who have been endowed pre-1990. I was endowed in 1994 and that had been taken out by then.

I attended many temple ceremonies in many temples. I saw live AND video endowment ceremonies. I stopped going to the temple in 1989.

It was a Catholic Priest. Clerical Collar and all.

 

[TheExorcist]

I attended many temple ceremonies in many temples. I saw live AND video endowment ceremonies. I stopped going to the temple in 1989.

It was a Catholic Priest. Clerical Collar and all.

Thanks for the clarification. If you listen to Mormon Expression one of the few podcasts which shines a light on the evils of Mormonism they always talk about it being a Protestant or evangelical minister. Of course, it makes sense that it was a Catholic priest though since the prevailing view in Mormonism (if not officially) was the Catholic church is the great and abominable whore.