Leading Catholics request Old Rite Masses on Sunday

[estesbob]

Leading Catholics including Lord Alton of Liverpool, Dom Antony Sutch and Bianca Jagger have signed a petition asking the bishops of England and Wales to provide more Sunday Masses in the extraordinary form (Tridentine rite).

The petition - which has been signed by Catholics from across the political spectrum - “humbly requests” that the bishops make traditional Masses widely available to the faithful, some of whom have to travel many miles in order to attend the older form of Mass, which Pope Benedict ultimately wants to see made available to Catholics in every parish.

catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000335.shtml

 

[GerardP]

Leading Catholics including Lord Alton of Liverpool, Dom Antony Sutch and Bianca Jagger have signed a petition asking the bishops of England and Wales to provide more Sunday Masses in the extraordinary form (Tridentine rite).

The petition - which has been signed by Catholics from across the political spectrum - “humbly requests” that the bishops make traditional Masses widely available to the faithful, some of whom have to travel many miles in order to attend the older form of Mass, which Pope Benedict ultimately wants to see made available to Catholics in every parish.

catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000335.shtml

I wonder if they’ll want the full doctrine of the Church along with beautiful liturgy.

Stephen Hough is a sincere but misguided by liberalism Catholic. He believes the Church can and should change it’s stance on homosexuality. He doesn’t seem to get the fact of immutability in the Church.

In one of his articles he claims he was living a chaste life until he read John Paul II’s “Love and Responsibility” and somehow JPII’s arguments justified homosexual relationships to him.

This is why the crisis is much much more than the liturgy.

 

[LilyM]

I’m more interested in the idea of Bianca Jagger being a traditionalist Catholic in her advancing age than anything else - in her heyday she was very much into the party-drugs-rock’n’roll scene and was a regular at the infamous Studio 54 nightclub.

I suppose that comes with the territory of being married to Mick Jagger, though I guess it’s kinda heartwarming that they married in a Catholic ceremony in France and she hasn’t married anyone else since.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Could you define exactly what you mean by “Leading Catholics”. I would think they would be paragons of virtue and examples for all.I am making no judgments about your list, but I don’t know if the phrase fits them.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[BennyBoy89]

I think we all ought to be getting the logs out of our own eyes before taking the specks out of others. We’re all sinners. I for one figured that “leading Catholics” meant high profile Catholics in society. I was right.

Are we all now going to complain because the EF Mass isn’t being supported by the “right” kind of people? I think it says something about the faith of these Catholic celebs, whether they’re perfect or not, that theyre concerned about the liturgy. I’m sure God will take care of their problems as He draws them closer to Himself.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I think we all ought to be getting the logs out of our own eyes before taking the specks out of others. We’re all sinners. I for one figured that “leading Catholics” meant high profile Catholics in society. I was right.

Your point is well taken. However, to me, “leading” implies one who leads others by examples of virtue, piety, etc. As I said, I am making no judgments, as that certainly is not for me to make. Madonna is also Catholic. I however would not call her a leading Catholic. I think notorious would be more fitting.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[BennyBoy89]

Your point is well taken. However, to me, “leading” implies one who leads others by examples of virtue, piety, etc. As I said, I am making no judgments, as that certainly is not for me to make. Madonna is also Catholic. I however would not call her a leading Catholic. I think notorious would be more fitting.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Upon rereading my post, I think that I may have been a little cat shriek. Sorry if I came across that way, Ed. It wasn’t just you I was talking about.

And I agree wholeheartedly about Madonna, the “notorious” Catholic.

 

[ProVobis]

You can be a “leader” but not necessarily Catholic to request the Old Rite Mass. Anyone remember Agatha Christie and the petition she and others presented to Pope Paul?

In fact you don’t even need to be a traditionalist to desire or appreciate the Old Rite Mass. People know a magnificent piece of art and ultimate genius when they see one.

 

[James0235]

Leading Catholics including Lord Alton of Liverpool, Dom Antony Sutch and Bianca Jagger have signed a petition asking the bishops of England and Wales to provide more Sunday Masses in the extraordinary form (Tridentine rite).

I don’t know that I would consider them leading Catholics as I have never heard of any of those people. But, I do tend to be ridiculously ignorant when it comes to celebrities.

James

 

[LSG]

I think we all ought to be getting the logs out of our own eyes before taking the specks out of others. We’re all sinners. I for one figured that “leading Catholics” meant high profile Catholics in society. I was right.

Are we all now going to complain because the EF Mass isn’t being supported by the “right” kind of people? I think it says something about the faith of these Catholic celebs, whether they’re perfect or not, that theyre concerned about the liturgy. I’m sure God will take care of their problems as He draws them closer to Himself.

AMEN!

 

[Joannm]

I don’t know that I would consider them leading Catholics as I have never heard of any of those people. But, I do tend to be ridiculously ignorant when it comes to celebrities.

James

never heard of Bianca Jagger? YOu must be young…or else I’m just old.

 

[JReducation]

There are two problems here.

First, this post four-years old.

Second, you can ask the bishop for the EF, but the bishop can’t always find a priest who is willing to celebrate it or who is allowed to celebrate it.

In my own diocese, there is only one diocesan priest who celebrates it. We have one brother who celebrates it, but he’s not allowed to celebrate it for the laity, only for the brothers. As much as people may want it, the bishop can’t pool priests out of his mitre.

Of the newly ordained diocesan priests, all were trained in it, but none want to celebrate it. Those priests who were ordained for religious orders are not allowed to celebrate it in public unless they have written permission from the major superior. That’s not always easy to get. Sometimes, it requires that the community vote on it, because the major superior may not have the authority to grant such permission.

People have to be patient.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[corsair]

You are correct Bro. JR. But the Bishop can have them trained. It has happened here in the PNW. There are now several priest that can celebrate the Mass (EF).

 

[JReducation]

You are correct Bro. JR. But the Bishop can have them trained. It has happened here in the PNW. There are now several priest that can celebrate the Mass (EF).

The bishop can do that. Our local diocesan seminary teaches Latin and the EF. It’s the priests who do not want to celebrate it, not that they do not know how to celebrate it. No bishop can force them to do so, because it is extraordinary. Bishops can only enforce the ordinary. Bishops are not religious superiors. They don’t have as much power over their men as religious superiors have.

In our community, we have one brother who celebrates it. But he’s only allowed to celebrate it for the brothers and on certain occasions. He’s not allowed to celebrate it for the laity. The laity has asked the superior and he has declined. Among religious, the superior can prohibit any form or any rite. For example, Pope Benedict liberated the Carmelite Rite. The Priors General of the Carmelites have not given permission to use it. Each friar has to ask.

Given that some priests don’t want to use the Extraordinary Form and you can’t command them to do so, even if they know it and given that priests in religious communities may want to use it, but must have the permission of their major superior (the local superior) cannot grant such permission. It has to go to the mother house.) . . . this shrinks the pool of priests available to celebrate in the Extraordinary Form.

I foresee more and more celebrations in the Extraordinary Form. I don’t foresee it becoming the norm and certainly not the majority. The Holly Father himself does not want it to become the norm. He wants the two forms to co-exist without competition. The priests coming out of the seminaries who know and want to celebrate it are not the majority.

I believe it’s the Arlington Diocese in VA that ordains like 10 to 15 men a year and they only get one who volunteers to celebrate the EF. All of them know how to celebrate it.

This is Ecclesia Dei’s biggest headache, because the pope told the bishops to call on ED if they have problems. When they call on ED and say that their men don’t want to do it, ED says, “No one in the Church has the authority to command them to do it.” What makes me chuckle is that ED is now on the spot. You can’t pull a priest out of your hat.

I have never really understood what ED is supposed to do when a priest declines an invitation to celebrate the EF or when a religious superior denies permission. In matters of sacraments, even the pope does not command a priest to celebrate the sacraments, because it can taint the intent. That raises questions. “Did he do it with the intent to confect the sacrament or with the intent to placate the pope?” The latter case would invalidate the sacrament. The pope urges, requests, stimulates, encourages, etc.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[asd72]

The bishop can do that. Our local diocesan seminary teaches Latin and the EF. It’s the priests who do not want to celebrate it, not that they do not know how to celebrate it. No bishop can force them to do so, because it is extraordinary. Bishops can only enforce the ordinary. Bishops are not religious superiors. They don’t have as much power over their men as religious superiors have.

In our community, we have one brother who celebrates it. But he’s only allowed to celebrate it for the brothers and on certain occasions. He’s not allowed to celebrate it for the laity. The laity has asked the superior and he has declined. Among religious, the superior can prohibit any form or any rite. For example, Pope Benedict liberated the Carmelite Rite. The Priors General of the Carmelites have not given permission to use it. Each friar has to ask.

Given that some priests don’t want to use the Extraordinary Form and you can’t command them to do so, even if they know it and given that priests in religious communities may want to use it, but must have the permission of their major superior (the local superior) cannot grant such permission. It has to go to the mother house.) . . . this shrinks the pool of priests available to celebrate in the Extraordinary Form.

I foresee more and more celebrations in the Extraordinary Form. I don’t foresee it becoming the norm and certainly not the majority. The Holly Father himself does not want it to become the norm. He wants the two forms to co-exist without competition. The priests coming out of the seminaries who know and want to celebrate it are not the majority.

I believe it’s the Arlington Diocese in VA that ordains like 10 to 15 men a year and they only get one who volunteers to celebrate the EF. All of them know how to celebrate it.

This is Ecclesia Dei’s biggest headache, because the pope told the bishops to call on ED if they have problems. When they call on ED and say that their men don’t want to do it, ED says, “No one in the Church has the authority to command them to do it.” What makes me chuckle is that ED is now on the spot. You can’t pull a priest out of your hat.

I have never really understood what ED is supposed to do when a priest declines an invitation to celebrate the EF or when a religious superior denies permission. In matters of sacraments, even the pope does not command a priest to celebrate the sacraments, because it can taint the intent. That raises questions. “Did he do it with the intent to confect the sacrament or with the intent to placate the pope?” The latter case would invalidate the sacrament. The pope urges, requests, stimulates, encourages, etc.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Do you know why many Priests do not want to celebrate the EF? Especially when there is a need.

 

[Marie5890]

The bishop can do that. Our local diocesan seminary teaches Latin and the EF. It’s the priests who do not want to celebrate it, not that they do not know how to celebrate it. No bishop can force them to do so, because it is extraordinary. Bishops can only enforce the ordinary. Bishops are not religious superiors. They don’t have as much power over their men as religious superiors have.

In our community, we have one brother who celebrates it. But he’s only allowed to celebrate it for the brothers and on certain occasions. He’s not allowed to celebrate it for the laity. The laity has asked the superior and he has declined. Among religious, the superior can prohibit any form or any rite. For example, Pope Benedict liberated the Carmelite Rite. The Priors General of the Carmelites have not given permission to use it. Each friar has to ask.

Given that some priests don’t want to use the Extraordinary Form and you can’t command them to do so, even if they know it and given that priests in religious communities may want to use it, but must have the permission of their major superior (the local superior) cannot grant such permission. It has to go to the mother house.) . . . this shrinks the pool of priests available to celebrate in the Extraordinary Form.

I foresee more and more celebrations in the Extraordinary Form. I don’t foresee it becoming the norm and certainly not the majority. The Holly Father himself does not want it to become the norm. He wants the two forms to co-exist without competition. The priests coming out of the seminaries who know and want to celebrate it are not the majority.

I believe it’s the Arlington Diocese in VA that ordains like 10 to 15 men a year and they only get one who volunteers to celebrate the EF. All of them know how to celebrate it.

This is Ecclesia Dei’s biggest headache, because the pope told the bishops to call on ED if they have problems. When they call on ED and say that their men don’t want to do it, ED says, “No one in the Church has the authority to command them to do it.” What makes me chuckle is that ED is now on the spot. You can’t pull a priest out of your hat.

I have never really understood what ED is supposed to do when a priest declines an invitation to celebrate the EF or when a religious superior denies permission. In matters of sacraments, even the pope does not command a priest to celebrate the sacraments, because it can taint the intent. That raises questions. “Did he do it with the intent to confect the sacrament or with the intent to placate the pope?” The latter case would invalidate the sacrament. The pope urges, requests, stimulates, encourages, etc.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Mmm…Very interesting and very educational especially the part why the Pope wouldnt command and the whole idea of intent…

Of course that makes perfect sense, I just have never thought of it like that.

Thanks Bro. J.

 

[JReducation]

Do you know why many Priests do not want to celebrate the EF? Especially when there is a need.

I really don’t have first-hand knowledge as to why not. I don’t ask such personal questions of my friends. If I were a betting man, which I’m not, I would guess several things.

1. It’s not a need in the sense that people will go without the Eucharist if you don’t have the EF.
2. The young priests coming out of the diocesan seminaries have not been through the silly period. Those days are almost gone. These guys are very solid and they can and do celebrate the OF very well. Just look at the young friars on EWTN. To some of them, the EF looks like an escape from something that can can be resolved by following the rubrics.
3. One certainly becomes a priest, brother, sister, monk, etc to save one’s soul. That’s your first priority. One has to nurture one’s spirituality. I would venture to guess that these young men feel they have what they need in the OF.
4. I have heard one or two say that they don’t like the “pageantry” of the EF. They prefer the austerity of the OF.

For the most part, the ones who decline to celebrate it do not make any negative comments about. They just don’t have an interest in it and don’t see it as a pressing need. That would apply to diocesan priests, since they are the only ones who have permission to celebrate the EF whenever they wish to do so.

Priests who are incardinated into religious communities are in a different boat. Those who decline to celebrate it often do so because they don’t want to stand out in the community. Liturgy is central to community life. It is important to the life of the religious community to be on the same liturgical page. It’s unhealthy to have two masses in one house or two breviaries being used. It’s equally unhealthy to force the other members of a religious community to participate in a form of the mass that they don’t want, when they have a choice. It’s very important to priests who are part of religious communities to be on board with what the majority wants to do. Finally, priests who are religious must remember that they are religious first. They have a greater obligation to their brothers and then to the rest of the world. It works like a marriage.

For this reason, superiors may limit the use of the EF. There are several ways to do that. One would be that the priest would only celebrate it with the laity, but never with the community or only sometimes with the community. The other would be as we have it. It’s celebrated with the community on special occasions, but never for the laity. The community adopts it for daily use or it’s never allowed. The good thing about being a priest in a religious community is that you don’t have to make these judgment calls. Your brothers make them for you. You just do what you’re told to do or don’t do what is prohibited. Superiors cannot command anyone to celebrate in a particular form or rite unless it’s in the law of the religious community. In that case, intent is not a question, because the constitutions tell you what your intent must be.

Diocesan priests do not have a rule of life nor constitutions, because they’re not consecrated men. They’re their own superiors when it comes to matters that pertain to their spiritual life. Hence the term, secular priest. These are priests that retain the rights that all men in the world have. In the Latin Church, they voluntarily promise not to marry and to obey the bishop’s policies. Policies cannot cross over into the spiritual life of the individual. Policies have to be pastoral and administrative.

Mmm…Very interesting and very educational especially the part why the Pope wouldnt command and the whole idea of intent…

Of course that makes perfect sense, I just have never thought of it like that.

Thanks Bro. J.

The issue of intent is really a touchy one. For that reason, those in authority avoid commanding the celebration of the sacraments beyond what’s in the books. The pope, bishop and superior can command that you do it by the book or you’ll be suspended. Since the book says that the Pauline Mass is the Ordinary Form, then you’re doing it by the book.

You also want to be careful not to suspend priests because of minor infractions or because they made someone angry. When you suspend, you have to find a replacement.

I often chuckle when I read comments on CAF where people are in an uproar and demand that the pope or bishops suspend all priests who have green hair (I made that part up). The truth is that if you suspend every priest with green hair and there are 20 of them. You now have a problem. You have to find 20 priests or close some parishes. It’s easy to tell a bishop or religious superior what he should do or not do, when you don’t have to deal with the consequences. Finding 20 men is not an easy task. In some places, it’s an impossible one.

As the old saying goes, “Be careful what you wish for.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TimothyH]

I think we all ought to be getting the logs out of our own eyes before taking the specks out of others. We’re all sinners. I for one figured that “leading Catholics” meant high profile Catholics in society. I was right.

Are we all now going to complain because the EF Mass isn’t being supported by the “right” kind of people? I think it says something about the faith of these Catholic celebs, whether they’re perfect or not, that theyre concerned about the liturgy. I’m sure God will take care of their problems as He draws them closer to Himself.

That’s one of the reasons why I havn’t gone to the parish near me which celebrates the EF form near me.

Based on what I am told here in the trad forum, I"m not the right kind of people.

-Tim-

 

[Ottoviani]

I’m more interested in the idea of Bianca Jagger being a traditionalist Catholic in her advancing age than anything else - in her heyday she was very much into the party-drugs-rock’n’roll scene and was a regular at the infamous Studio 54 nightclub.

I suppose that comes with the territory of being married to Mick Jagger, though I guess it’s kinda heartwarming that they married in a Catholic ceremony in France and she hasn’t married anyone else since.

Believe it or not I once read that Mick Jagger is good friends with an FSSP priest.

 

[melekali]

Why would you call them “leading” Catholics?