Leading Catholics request Old Rite Masses on Sunday

[MariaGoretti88]

I really don’t have first-hand knowledge as to why not. I don’t ask such personal questions of my friends. If I were a betting man, which I’m not, I would guess several things.

1. It’s not a need in the sense that people will go without the Eucharist if you don’t have the EF.
2. The young priests coming out of the diocesan seminaries have not been through the silly period. Those days are almost gone. These guys are very solid and they can and do celebrate the OF very well. Just look at the young friars on EWTN. To some of them, the EF looks like an escape from something that can can be resolved by following the rubrics.
3. One certainly becomes a priest, brother, sister, monk, etc to save one’s soul. That’s your first priority. One has to nurture one’s spirituality. I would venture to guess that these young men feel they have what they need in the OF.
4. I have heard one or two say that they don’t like the “pageantry” of the EF. They prefer the austerity of the OF.

For the most part, the ones who decline to celebrate it do not make any negative comments about. They just don’t have an interest in it and don’t see it as a pressing need. That would apply to diocesan priests, since they are the only ones who have permission to celebrate the EF whenever they wish to do so.

Priests who are incardinated into religious communities are in a different boat. Those who decline to celebrate it often do so because they don’t want to stand out in the community. Liturgy is central to community life. It is important to the life of the religious community to be on the same liturgical page. It’s unhealthy to have two masses in one house or two breviaries being used. It’s equally unhealthy to force the other members of a religious community to participate in a form of the mass that they don’t want, when they have a choice. It’s very important to priests who are part of religious communities to be on board with what the majority wants to do. Finally, priests who are religious must remember that they are religious first. They have a greater obligation to their brothers and then to the rest of the world. It works like a marriage.

For this reason, superiors may limit the use of the EF. There are several ways to do that. One would be that the priest would only celebrate it with the laity, but never with the community or only sometimes with the community. The other would be as we have it. It’s celebrated with the community on special occasions, but never for the laity. The community adopts it for daily use or it’s never allowed. The good thing about being a priest in a religious community is that you don’t have to make these judgment calls. Your brothers make them for you. You just do what you’re told to do or don’t do what is prohibited. Superiors cannot command anyone to celebrate in a particular form or rite unless it’s in the law of the religious community. In that case, intent is not a question, because the constitutions tell you what your intent must be.

Diocesan priests do not have a rule of life nor constitutions, because they’re not consecrated men. They’re their own superiors when it comes to matters that pertain to their spiritual life. Hence the term, secular priest. These are priests that retain the rights that all men in the world have. In the Latin Church, they voluntarily promise not to marry and to obey the bishop’s policies. Policies cannot cross over into the spiritual life of the individual. Policies have to be pastoral and administrative.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

This was really informative and made me think of things that I’d never even considered before! It certainly calms my fears that most bishops and priests are just “being mean” to us EF lovers ^^ even when the Church tells us to always assume good intentions. Well, this post made it that much easier now (although I’ve just been loving Mass/Liturgy this past year in any Form/Rite as long as our Lord becomes truly present).

Blessings to you and the Brothers

 

[JReducation]

This was really informative and made me think of things that I’d never even considered before! It certainly calms my fears that most bishops and priests are just “being mean” to us EF lovers ^^ even when the Church tells us to always assume good intentions. Well, this post made it that much easier now (although I’ve just been loving Mass/Liturgy this past year in any Form/Rite as long as our Lord becomes truly present).

Blessings to you and the Brothers

I’m glad that you got something out of it. It’s good to know and understand the significance of the mass. However, it is also important to know and understand the life and spirituality of the man who celebrates the mass. Sometimes we focus so much on the form of the mass that we forget that the priest has rights. Or we forget that if he belongs to a religious community or a society and has duties to that community, which take priority over his service to the rest of us, just like a parent’s duties take priority over the CCD class or the soup kitchen. It’s wonderful to volunteer for these things, as long as your kids are not sitting in front of the electronic baby sitter (computer).

It’s wonderful for a priest to know both forms of the Latin Rite and if he’s a religious to know the form of his own community. But at the end of the day, it’s his spiritual journey, not mine. He has to decide what is best for him, because he cannot give what he does not have. Just like the parent or the spouse, he must be faithful to the interior life first, then to the needs and requests of the people around him. Interior life has components, his soul and if he’s a religious, the souls of his brothers. Then comes everyone else.

Knowing that the priest is on a spiritual journey and that he has to map it out according to his personality and his state in life, secular or religious, can help us be more patient with our own requests and expectations.

That’s all part of our joint journey toward the perfection of charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

That would apply to diocesan priests, since they are the only ones who have permission to celebrate the EF whenever they wish to do so.

Br. Jr, Is this always true? Is a priest who has already celebrated two (or three perhaps) OF’s in one day allowed by the 2007 SP to say another Mass? Wouldn’t his bishop have to approve that then?

Thanks.

 

[JReducation]

Br. Jr, Is this always true? Is a priest who has already celebrated two (or three perhaps) OF’s in one day allowed by the 2007 SP to say another Mass? Wouldn’t his bishop have to approve that then?

Thanks.

No, that’s a different situation. The priest can say two masses, let’s say an EF and an OF. If there is a good reason for a third, the bishop may grant permission. For a fourth, this may never be the norm. They may happen in rare circumstance. Let’s say that Fr. X is scheduled for the 6:00 mass and has a heart attack. Fr. Z who has already celebrated three masses, steps in. The chancery must be notified.

The number of masses that a priest may celebrate in one day, would include the EF. The difference between a diocesan priest and a religious is that the diocesan pastor has to inform the bishop that he’s altering the schedule to fit in an EF. The bishop remains the final authority in liturgy as per article 5 in Summorum Pontificum and the letter sent to them.

He’s not asking for permission to celebrate the EF, but his bishop can require notification before it happens. It’s the bishop’s job to make sure that all bases are covered. This thing about the number of masses is one of the areas that the bishop must monitor.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[keithwood57]

I found this whole discussion very interesting and informative - though I had to ask my wife who Bianca Jagger is.
I am a convert (three glorious, wonderful, joyous years this Easter, thank God!) who has enjoyed many EF Masses, but I confess that I do believe that the new rite - especially with the lovely new translation - is the Mass that the Holy Church has given us and that we should appreciate and support this version of the Mass.
I also believe that it is possible to celebrate the new Mass in a way that is less than inspiring. But that is also true of the old Latin Mass - I have heard of priests who were able to get through it in an unseemly haste. All depends on the outlook of the celebrant.
Perhaps I have been unusually fortunate in coming under the ministry of a number of godly men who celebrate the Mass with a deep appreciation for its meaning.
I sometimes think that my own love of the EF is due more to having missed out on the old Latin rite because of coming into the church in the autumn of my life.
However, although this is slightly different subject, I do feel that the Latin language should be used more than it is where that is possible and where it is fitting. After all Latin is attached to the DNA of the Catholic Church. In the last three years I have been in two different parishes and I greatly appreciated the one where the parish priest felt able to use the Latin frequently rather than the one where the priest NEVER does so.
But surely what matters is that we DO reverently partake in this Holy Sacrament?

 

[Jane_of_Arc]

The bishop can do that. Our local diocesan seminary teaches Latin and the EF.**** It’s the priests who do not want to celebrate it,**** not that they do not know how to celebrate it. No bishop can force them to do so, because it is extraordinary. Bishops can only enforce the ordinary. Bishops are not religious superiors. They don’t have as much power over their men as religious superiors have.

I realize that I’m asking you to be a mind-reader, but WHY do you think that the priests do not want to celebrate the TLM.??

In our community, we have one brother who celebrates it. But he’s only allowed to celebrate it for the brothers and on certain occasions. ** He’s not allowed to celebrate it for the laity. The laity has asked the superior and he has declined.**

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Again WHY?? I know that this will be just an educated guess, but why do you think that Your superior would turn down the laity & what gives him that authority Regarding public Masses, the Pope asked parish priests and rectors of churches to permit celebration of a Tridentine Mass on** Sundays** and feasts in parishes at the request of a “stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition.”

I know that the head of a religious community has the right to allow or disallow the EF., I attend a parish run by a religious community, still I can’t understand why the superior feels that it would be a mistake to celebrate both Masses???

 

[ProVobis]

The number of masses that a priest may celebrate in one day, would include the EF. The difference between a diocesan priest and a religious is that the diocesan pastor has to inform the bishop that he’s altering the schedule to fit in an EF. The bishop remains the final authority in liturgy as per article 5 in Summorum Pontificum and the letter sent to them.

The reason I asked the question is that I happen to know of a priest (which I happened to serve with 50 years ago) who now is a pastor of a parish. (It’s actually a consolidation of several parishes, but that’s another story.) He currently celebrates one English Mass and one Spanish Mass every Sunday. He’s also told me he still remembers how to do the old Mass but no one has asked him to do it. So say a few do ask him, how would he be able to say an EF on a Sunday given his current full schedule? It would be unrealistic to just cut one of his other Masses.

BTW, I’ve offered to serve for him if he were to ever say the EF and I’m hoping.

 

[JReducation]

Again WHY??

A Franciscan superior never has to answer that question. Francis never did, nor did he allow anyone to ask him why. The superior is the successor of St.Francis and that is all that he needs, a canonical election.

I know that this will be just an educated guess, but why do you think that Your superior would turn down the laity

Because our brothers are not to serve in middle class parishes. This is a middle class parish.

& what gives him that authority Regarding public Masses,

Summorum Pontificum says that regular priests can only celebrate the EF for the public with the permission of the major superior. The major superior may only grant that permission of the law of his community allows it.

In the rule of St. Francis it says that only one priest in each house may celebrate mass. The other priests must attend the mass. The Holy See has granted friars permission to have more than one priest celebrate when there is more than one mass, such as in a parish.

Outside of that situation, the Franciscan superior has total control over the masses that his religious celebrate in public or in private.

the Pope asked parish priests and rectors of churches to permit celebration of a Tridentine Mass on** Sundays** and feasts in parishes at the request of a “stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition.”

The Holy Father asked the secular clergy to permit it. He did not command anyone to celebrate it. There is a difference here. No one has been commanded to celebrate it.

In addition, the Holy Father did not ask the religious to permit it. He told the priests who belong to religious orders, including those who are in parishes, to get permission from their major superior. Priests who are in religious orders may celebrate it privately without permission, but never publicly. For a public celebration, the Pope said that they need permission from the superior.

Canon law says places the line of authority in religious orders in this manner, from top to bottom:

• Pope
• Canon Law
• Founder
• Rule
• Constitutions
• Chapter
• Supeior

I know that the head of a religious community has the right to allow or disallow the EF., I attend a parish run by a religious community, still I can’t understand why the superior feels that it would be a mistake to celebrate both Masses???

I never used the word mistake.

In the community, it can be a mistake, if the entire house does not agree on it. It can be a cause of division in a house. The primary apostolate of every religious is to his community first. The primary duty of every superior is the unity of his community and fidelity to its founder. If the celebration of the EF causes tension in the house, it would be a mistake to allow it, because it’s not necessary. It’s not as if they were not getting mass.

For example, if part of your house said that they will not attend the EF, if it’s celebrated in the community chapel, the superior has a problem. The superior cannot order his subjects to attend the EF, because of the “E” in EF. When something is extraordinary, it cannot be mandated. You can only mandate what is ordinary. In such a case, the superior would be more prudent to table the idea and maybe in the future it can be taken up again. After all, people get transferred. You often have a house that does not mind having the EF.

My own house voted to have it on special days. But it made it clear to the superior that we would not have it daily, because it’s extraordinary, not ordinary. Once the votes are cast, the superior must obey his subjects. He must implement what was decided in the house chapter.

The wise superior does not bring things to the house chapter that he wants to impose or prohibit. Once he brings it to the chapter, the chapter has authority over him. If he simply makes a decree on his own, no one has authority over that. The only limit is that he cannot impose what the Church considers extraordinary nor what is proper for every Catholic.

The reason I asked the question is that I happen to know of a priest (which I happened to serve with 50 years ago) who now is a pastor of a parish. (It’s actually a consolidation of several parishes, but that’s another story.) He currently celebrates one English Mass and one Spanish Mass every Sunday. He’s also told me he still remembers how to do the old Mass but no one has asked him to do it. So say a few do ask him, how would he be able to say an EF on a Sunday given his current full schedule? It would be unrealistic to just cut one of his other Masses.

BTW, I’ve offered to serve for him if he were to ever say the EF and I’m hoping.

If he has to travel, his day may be very long if he adds a third mass to his schedule. But he can add a third mass, with the permission of the diocesan bishop. Summorum Pontificum (article 5) makes it very clear that the bishop remains the highest liturgical authority in the diocese. The bishop can deny the request for an EF on the grounds that the priest already has 2 masses and he does not want to make it a habit of having 3. That would be considered a legitimate response.

The bishop cannot be forced to make exceptions to Canon Law, because people want something. He has the authority to make exceptions in some things, but as the word says, “exceptions”. In other words, he should not be making exceptions every day. Only Jesuits can do that, because they are an exceptional order. They are very different than any other religious order.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I’ve heard from a priest (note, he does not say the EF/TLM) that when he was in the seminary (diocesan), that particular seminary more or less drove out the more conservative-minded seminarians. I’ve also heard the same from two people who were in that seminary and chose to leave. Not to say that this is the case everywhere, but being selective in who can and who cannot be allowed in the seminary (or who they make short shrift of) can certainly make the number of priests willing to say the EF much more rare.

 

[Jane_of_Arc]

A Franciscan superior never has to answer that question. Francis never did, nor did he allow anyone to ask him why. The superior is the successor of St.Francis and that is all that he needs, a canonical election.
In the community, it can be a mistake, if the entire house does not agree on it. It can be a cause of division in a house. The primary apostolate of every religious is to his community first. The primary duty of every superior is the unity of his community and fidelity to its founder. If the celebration of the EF causes tension in the house, it would be a mistake to allow it, because it’s not necessary. It’s not as if they were not getting mass.
For example, if part of your house said that they will not attend the EF, if it’s celebrated in the community chapel, the superior has a problem. The superior cannot order his subjects to attend the EF, because of the “E” in EF. When something is extraordinary, it cannot be mandated. You can only mandate what is ordinary. In such a case, the superior would be more prudent to table the idea and maybe in the future it can be taken up again. After all, people get transferred. You often have a house that does not mind having the EF.

My own house voted to have it on special days. But it made it clear to the superior that we would not have it daily, because it’s extraordinary, not ordinary. Once the votes are cast, the superior must obey his subjects. He must implement what was decided in the house chapter.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

Thank you for answering my questions.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you for answering my questions.

You’re welcome. I knew that since you’re a Franciscan, I didn’t need to explain the Franciscan concept of absolute obedience. Since you already read St. Francis’ Testament.

“Brother Francis promises obedience to the Lord Pope and all the other brothers are bound to obey Brother Francis and his canonically elected successors.”

And the admonitions

“It it seems to a brother that what the superior has commanded can be done better, the brother is to obey without question, unless the command poses a danger to his soul. He should offer this sacrifice as a penance, for such obedience pleases both God and man.”

It’s very clear from his writings that superiors are not to be questioned. You’re allowed one question. “Is this a sin?”

In this case, the answer is, “No it is not.”

Therefore, you’re bound to obey and you do not ask the superior why he does not allow you to celebrate the EF. You shut your mouth, because your obedience is more pleasing to God and the superior than the EF. At the end of the day, it’s all about love of God, love of your superior and love of the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF