Leap of Faith

[Geremia]

This is an excellent summary of faith and reason:

REASON AND FAITH

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

If we never choose to believe anything all beliefs are beyond our control.

Agreed, our experience determines our beliefs.

If **all **beliefs are beyond our control why should we value any beliefs?

Because they are still ours and they are all we have. My life is well out of my own control, most of the things that happen to me are due to external influence. Even my thought processes I suspect, as I do not think up my own thought processes, they are natural to me and most likely a result of my brains structure and formation. Should I stop valuing my life simply because I am not in control of it? I am not in direct control of any body else’s life, should I stop valuing theirs? Their beliefs? Their desires?

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

Many have chosen to believe this and their experience has taught them whether their belief is matches objective reality.

Who has chosen to belief this? How do you know it is a choice?

Many others have chosen to believe in the existence of God and thier experience has taught them if it is true or not.

So they made a choice to believe? They went from not believing it is true, then with no external intervention they just chose to believe it was true and they did? Could this not be done of any belief system? Does this not make beliefs absolutely meaningless as they can be superfluously changed at will? If I was in captivity and being tortured, could I choose to believe that I was on a tropical beach enjoying myself or would my experience stop me from doing that and effectively remove my choice? Can I choose to believe the sky is green despite my being able to see the sky as being the colour blue? Can I decide to believe my computer is not real and subsequently I won’t be able to see it or feel it?

Personally, I make the choice to believe in God and the Holy Catholic Church several times each week if I can make it to Mass. I don’t have to go to Mass but I make the choice to go. I don’t have to stand but I make the choice to do so. The priest invites me to profess my faith and I publically say the creed out loud of my own free will. Then I come forward and the priest says, “Body of Christ” and I choose to say “Amen”, even though I see what appears to be only a wafer of unleavened bread.

I find this doubtful, Your belief in God is likely the result of your life experiences, if God has somehow shown himself to you, even through scripture your belief is likely a result of that rather than a choice in spite of that. If it was a choice to believe in God, did you go from the atheistic position to the theistic position without external influence or did something occur that made you believe?

This is why the father of the boy posessed by evil spirits in Mark 9 is one of my heros.

Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, " ‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith." Then the boy’s father cried out, "I do believe, help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:21-24)
Jesus himself dealt with the question in the original post.

I would say ‘the Bible’ provided an answer to the issue. I say this because what the Bible claims Jesus spoke may be inaccurate due to the expanse of time between Jesus’ death and the writing of the Gospels, also the authors of the Gospels were not eye witnesses and likely had to rely on oral tradition 20+ years after the event.

Yes it is possible to still have doubt in the face of that unbelief, because our physical senses are limited and our spiritual senses are clouded.

Why are our spiritual senses clouded?

 

[tonyrey]

Agreed, our experience determines our beliefs.

 

[Geremia]

Why are our spiritual senses clouded?

Original sin
Plus, in this life we can only know God and other immaterial beings like angels through their sensible effects on creatures.[bibledrb]Romans 1:20[/bibledrb][bibledrb]1 Corinthians 13:12[/bibledrb][bibledrb]John 1:18[/bibledrb]Read also this:

1. 
   *] Can the human soul in the present state of life understand the immaterial substances called angels, in themselves?
   *] Can it arrive at the knowledge thereof by the knowledge of material things?

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

So you cannot choose what to believe - even if it is unreasonable?

I doubt it, generally our beliefs are bound by what we find reasonable and plausible, unfortunately what we find reasonable differs from person to person, then there are those that can be tricked.

I note that you leave a loophole with “most”!

Indeed I did.

According to your theory you have no choice!

Probably not, did I choose to think the way that I do? Did I choose to have the genetic makeup that I have? Did I make any choice that relates to how I make decisions throughout my life or are my decisions determined by my character?

Why value anything?

I suppose because it is natural to me and understandably to many others.

 

[tonyrey]

Filthy Tugboat;7828389:

So you cannot choose what to believe - even if it is unreasonable?

I doubt it, generally our beliefs are bound by what we find reasonable and plausible, unfortunately what we find reasonable differs from person to person, then there are those that can be tricked.

In that case your conclusions are far more likely to be false than true!

I note that you leave a loophole with “most”!

Indeed I did.

So you do have some control…

According to your theory you have no choice!

Probably not, did I choose to think the way that I do? Did I choose to have the genetic makeup that I have? Did I make any choice that relates to how I make decisions throughout my life or are my decisions determined by my character?

Then you are just a cog in a machine… although you have just implied the opposite…

Why value anything?

I suppose because it is natural to me and understandably to many others.

Our natural instincts lead us astray very often…

The upshot of your argument is that all arguments are very unreliable - including the one you are making!

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I doubt it, generally our beliefs are bound by what we find reasonable and plausible, unfortunately what we find reasonable differs from person to person, then there are those that can be tricked.

God the creator of the universe either exists fully and totally, or there is no God at all, sadly there is no absolute proof to confirm this either way. The only God that cannot exist is the probably God, or maybe God.

When I started to search for God, I was about 90 % sure that God existed, the leap of faith was to overcome that 10 % of doubt, and to trust that God the creator of the Universe exists fully and totally.

In order to have faith in God you have to do something to prove that faith, to yourself and also to God.

Blessings

Eric

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

In that case your conclusions are far more likely to be false than true!

I don’t know if likelihood can really be attributed either way but it is certainly a strong possibility.

So you do have some control…

Not necessarily because the ‘control’ I have appears to come from sources other than myself, be it my genetic structure or what some people seem to believe as a soul. Whether the soul is actually something supernatural or whether it is just a philosophical term to describe ones character as produced by their genetic makeup is unclear to me but with lack of evidence for the former I would probably suggest it is the latter.

Then you are just a cog in a machine…

It seems that way to me.

although you have just implied the opposite…

How exactly did I do that?

Our natural instincts lead us astray very often…

Yes, but they also lead us on a path we tend to value. As far as I’m aware there is no other motive to by other than our natural instincts.

The upshot of your argument is that all arguments are very unreliable - including the one you are making!

Pretty much, the volume of things we do not know is unimaginable, seeking to explain these thing with unevidenced claims does not appear to be a good option for seeking truth.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

God the creator of the universe either exists fully and totally, or there is no God at all, sadly there is no absolute proof to confirm this either way. The only God that cannot exist is the probably God, or maybe God.

 

[tonyrey]

In that case your conclusions are far more likely to be false than true!

It is a very high probability! If we cannot choose what to believe our conclusions may depend on what we had for breakfast or how well we slept!

So you do have some control…

Not necessarily because the ‘control’ I have appears to come from sources other than myself, be it my genetic structure or what some people seem to believe as a soul. Whether the soul is actually something supernatural or whether it is just a philosophical term to describe ones character as produced by their genetic makeup is unclear to me but with lack of evidence for the former I would probably suggest it is the latter.

Then you’re faced with the insurmountable problem of being an impotent spectator of events.

Then you are just a cog in a machine…

It seems that way to me.

Appearances are often very deceptive.

although you have just implied the opposite…

.
How exactly did I do that?

You asked “Should I stop valuing my life simply because I am not in control of it?”
As Kant pointed, ought implies can. Either you stop or you don’t stop if you are not in control. Choice is no longer a factor.

Our natural instincts lead us astray very often…

Yes, but they also lead us on a path we tend to value. As far as I’m aware there is no other motive to by other than our natural instincts.

Every instinct from survival to sex can lead us to our doom very quickly - as many statesmen have discovered - unless it is subjected to the light of cold reason.

The upshot of your argument is that all arguments are very unreliable - including the one you are making!

Pretty much, the volume of things we do not know is unimaginable, seeking to explain these things with unevidenced claims does not appear to be a good option for seeking truth.

What are your criteria of “evidence”? Do your thoughts and perceptions count?

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

It is a very high probability! If we cannot choose what to believe our conclusions may depend on what we had for breakfast or how well we slept!

Those factors may play a part in how we reach our conclusions. They certainly can effect our mood and our behavior.

Then you’re faced with the insurmountable problem of being an impotent spectator of events.

Not just me, this is true of all people whether they accept it or not.

Appearances are often very deceptive.

I find this to be most true of the concept of “free will”.

You asked “Should I stop valuing my life simply because I am not in control of it?”
As Kant pointed, ought implies can. Either you stop or you don’t stop if you are not in control. Choice is no longer a factor.

Poor phrasing on my part, I apologize.

Every instinct from survival to sex can lead us to our doom very quickly - as many statesmen have discovered - unless it is subjected to the light of cold reason.

That cold light of reason is natural to many. Many seem to neglect our intellect as instinctive and instead propose only the survival instincts which include sexual instincts.

What are your criteria of “evidence”? Do your thoughts and perceptions count?

To me they do but I can’t see why they should for others.

 

[tonyrey]

Those factors may play a part in how we reach our conclusions. They certainly can effect our mood and our behavior.

Not just me, this is true of all people whether they accept it or not.

I find this to be most true of the concept of “free will”.

Poor phrasing on my part, I apologize.

That cold light of reason is natural to many. Many seem to neglect our intellect as instinctive and instead propose only the survival instincts which include sexual instincts.

To me they do but I can’t see why they should for others.

I think we can agree to differ. Thank you for your contributions.

 

[Filthy_Tugboat]

I think we can agree to differ. Thank you for your contributions.

I suppose we have to, it has been enthralling and I shall look forward to our next ‘bout’.