Learn from Pentecostals, Catholic leader says

[JustaServant]

German cardinal addresses concerns in speech at Duquesne University

Before criticizing Pentecostal churches that draw Catholics as members, Catholic leaders should ask why their own parishes aren’t meeting the needs of those who leave, the Vatican’s top ecumenical representative said yesterday at Duquesne University.

“Our response cannot be in the form of a polemical approach, leaving ourselves to condemn the activities of other groups,” said Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Such an approach “is not constructive and could even be counter-productive,” he said.

While Cardinal Kasper is known for outreach to traditional Protestant and Orthodox churches, he said it is crucial to be engaged with a diverse global Pentecostal movement that now claims 600 million adherents.

more…
post-gazette.com/pg/06283/728733-85.stm

My comment:
The Pentecostal movement was started in the 1920s by a man who later became a member of the KKK. One of his students (whom he insisted sit in the hall while he lectured) was an uneducated black man who was the pastor of the ‘Azuza Street revival’. It finds its roots in the ‘Holiness’ movement that actually started in England around the 18th century.
Charismatic/Pentecostal ‘worship’ is the exact opposite of liturgical worship and I seriously cannot see what Catholics can ‘learn’ from this movement, unless he is speaking of enthusiasm. But that tends to be an outward expression that is very superficial.
Across the Tiber I have been in a few of these services. They go from very mild (just a few hands raised while singing) to wild (watching a nerdy preacher do the ‘Benny Hinn bunny hop’ across the platform).
Keep in mind however that many of the people in the pews of these churches are searching for the supernatural, an encounter with God. It is very easy for them to mistake the counterfiet and demonic for that encounter.
Catholics have that quiet encounter in the Eucharist. But when you remove the Eucharist from worship, you forever are looking for something to replace it with.
So, with all due respect to the Cardinal, the opposite is true. Pentecostals have a lot to learn from Catholics.

 

[Kotton]

Keep in mind however that many of the people in the pews of these churches are searching for the supernatural, an encounter with God. It is very easy for them to mistake the counterfiet and demonic for that encounter.
Catholics have that quiet encounter in the Eucharist. But when you remove the Eucharist from worship, you forever are looking for something to replace it with.
So, with all due respect to the Cardinal, the opposite is true. Pentecostals have a lot to learn from Catholics.

Many of these Catholics are ignorant of their faith. They either had poor catechesis or were sleeping during class. They suddenly hear something from the pentecostals and think it is something they were not taught; but they had it available all the time right there in the Catholic Church. How can we reach them and instruct them in the the TRUTH? They are the ones who never come to special classes or discussion groups, and yet claim,“I went to Catholic school, I know what it teaches.” Engage them in conversation and you find they know little of the real facts and reasons. I see it every day on message boards.

Amen to the ‘quiet encounter in the Eucharist’, it is the fulfillment of our union with Christ.

Kotton

 

[Doc_Keele]

The Pentecostal movement didn’t start in the 1920s.

 

[JustaServant]

The Pentecostal movement didn’t start in the 1920s.

Whoops, sorry. 1906.
18th century was wrong too. I was referring to Edward Irving in the 1830s.

 

[Stjudeprayforus]

I dont think its demonic.

I had an Aunt who was pentecostal and a cousin and her husband who left the Catholic church for it.

They arent demonic. My Aunt when she was alive was the best Christian I have ever met.
She would have given the shirt off her back to anyone. She prayed and studied the bible more than anyone I have ever known. Her faith got her through a pretty rough life.

I dont get the yelling and pew jumping but… they love it.

 

[Bussi]

Many of these Catholics are ignorant of their faith. They either had poor catechesis or were sleeping during class. They suddenly hear something from the pentecostals and think it is something they were not taught; but they had it available all the time right there in the Catholic Church. How can we reach them and instruct them in the the TRUTH? They are the ones who never come to special classes or discussion groups, and yet claim,“I went to Catholic school, I know what it teaches.” Engage them in conversation and you find they know little of the real facts and reasons. I see it every day on message boards.
Amen to the ‘quiet encounter in the Eucharist’, it is the fulfillment of our union with Christ.

Kotton

This is something my wife and I observed during the few years we were involved in the “renewal.” However, we never made it into the “core group” because were “quiet charismatics” and also “too orthodox.” I haven’t heard the talk but I hope the “leader” who spoke recommended that we should only evaluate what we receive from the Pentacostals against our Catholic Faith as I and my wife did.

We both benefitted from the experience in that it brought us even closer to the Church as opposed to those unfortunate people who left the Church. I was once asked by a protestant “when are you going to leave the Church now that you are charismatic?”

I didn’t have to stop and think what to answer, I immediately said, “I would have to give up too much.” (First of all the Sacraments)

Keep the Faith…

God bless…

Bussi

 

[NHInsider]

Catholics have that quiet encounter in the Eucharist. But when you remove the Eucharist from worship, you forever are looking for something to replace it with.
So, with all due respect to the Cardinal, the opposite is true. Pentecostals have a lot to learn from Catholics.

Well, yes, they do. But the Cardinal’s point, I think, is not to say that their theology is superior or even that their more-enthusiastic worship is better, but that if we want to stop losing cradle-catholics to those congregations, we should learn from them what it is that they are doing that draws catholics in - and yes, I do think that means a more intimate knowledge of the Word - both the written Word and the Living Word. A deeper understanding of Scripture and a deeper prayer life. A living of the faith, not just a practice of the faith. If we can offer these things to our people ALONG WITH the fullness of the Sacramental liturgy, they will have no reason to be drawn astray.

 

[JustaServant]

I dont think its demonic.

I had an Aunt who was pentecostal and a cousin and her husband who left the Catholic church for it.

They arent demonic. My Aunt when she was alive was the best Christian I have ever met.
She would have given the shirt off her back to anyone. She prayed and studied the bible more than anyone I have ever known. Her faith got her through a pretty rough life.

I dont get the yelling and pew jumping but… they love it.

I saw some stuff in a few of the more wilder churches that made my skin crawl. But I know what you are saying, and I’m not saying it’s all demonic. Northway Christian Community in Pittsburgh, at least back in the early 90s was very mild and very friendly to Catholics.
However, the problem with basing a theology on subjective experience is that I will always be looking for a bigger ‘experience’. Tongues? Boring, let’s do the holy laughter. Healing? boring, let’s 'get drunk’ in the spirit. Neat new theologies? Oh sure, the popular TV evangelist will comply with that. What they don’t understand is that God is not moved by our subjective emotions. When matched with the Power of the Holy Spirit, liturgy, not caos, finds it’s most powerful expression.

 

[DaveBj]

Actually, the 1906 Azusa Street revival was preceded by 10 years in the Southeast within a group known at the time as the Christian Union. The C.U. eventually became the denomination known as the Church of God (Cleveland, TN).

OP is right, tho, that Pentecostals need to learn from Catholics. They could start by reading the materials in their own bookstores. My long journey to Rome started by reading the Church Fathers in a set contained on a CD-ROM set. Where did I buy the set? In the CoG’s flagship bookstore in Cleveland

DaveBj

 

[wisdomseeker]

With all due respect to the Cardinal, what made Catholics leave is not only the bad catecheses but also this so called ecumenism thrown on Catholics, and the changes on the Mass.

this desordely ecumenism without any true definition or explanation caused many Catholics to loose their Faith and identity. it seems that it is not enough, the Cardinal is continue his journey of throwing Catholics outthere to the wolves. he should be more concerned to what is going on inside the Church now and days.

to me he is just bringing more confusion into the Church. or maybe he just wants all Catholics to just become pentecostals. who knows. now and days, we need a lot of discernment. now and days, we dont know who is for the Church and who is not.

Lord, Have Mercy.

 

[Atemi]

Before criticizing Pentecostal churches that draw Catholics as members, Catholic leaders should ask why their own parishes aren’t meeting the needs of those who leave, the Vatican’s top ecumenical representative said yesterday at Duquesne University.

This man is wise.

Many will attack him for this for sure.

Unfortunate.

When anyone believes they already know it all, nothing else can be learned.

Our response cannot be in the form of a polemical approach, leaving ourselves to condemn the activities of other groups," said Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Such an approach “is not constructive and could even be counter-productive,” he said.

He is correct.

Charismatic/Pentecostal ‘worship’ is the exact opposite of liturgical worship and I seriously cannot see what Catholics can ‘learn’ from this movement, unless he is speaking of enthusiasm. But that tends to be an outward expression that is very superficial.

Maybe it is something else…or Someone else.

Across the Tiber I have been in a few of these services. They go from very mild (just a few hands raised while singing) to wild (watching a nerdy preacher do the ‘Benny Hinn bunny hop’ across the platform).

“Nerdy” preacher?

I surely don’t think name calling and poking fun is the wisest way to voice dissent on this important issue the cardinal seems to be touching on.

I am sure those mocking Catholic priests are quickly denounced as “anti-Catholics” by many, yet applying the same standard to oneself is a little harder, no?

Keep in mind however that many of the people in the pews of these churches are searching for the supernatural, an encounter with God. It is very easy for them to mistake the counterfiet and demonic for that encounter.

We must all always be aware.

The counterfeit and the demonic is a true problem for all Christians.

What you say above is also said of much in Roman Catholicism, for sure. I would take care to not throw stones in glass houses to keep things in perspective.

…

 

[JustaServant]

Maybe it is something else…or Someone else.

Impying what?

 

[JustaServant]

Well, yes, they do. But the Cardinal’s point, I think, is not to say that their theology is superior or even that their more-enthusiastic worship is better, but that if we want to stop losing cradle-catholics to those congregations, we should learn from them what it is that they are doing that draws catholics in - and yes, I do think that means a more intimate knowledge of the Word - both the written Word and the Living Word. A deeper understanding of Scripture and a deeper prayer life. A living of the faith, not just a practice of the faith. If we can offer these things to our people ALONG WITH the fullness of the Sacramental liturgy, they will have no reason to be drawn astray.

Very good point. I have never met a ‘former Catholic’ who truly understood the Church they were leaving.
I remember when I was younger, my sister invited a friend to the TLM Catholic Church my parents attended. Her only response was “it’s boring”. What many are looking for is ‘excitement’, entertainment, ect. The doctrine comes second or even third on the list. For me, it was the Bible. I wanted to be a student, so the ‘holy roller’ churches never appealed to me.
So, I have to wonder if these ‘former Catholics’ going to charismatic churches are simply there because it’s ‘not boring’.

 

[Mark77]

2 problems here;

#1: The Catholics who leave to become Pentecostals are uneducated on the Truths of the Faith, which is no excuse, but could be the case, or…

#2: The Catholics who leave are like me, unwilling to do as Jesus asked us; "And he said to all, “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.” (Lk 9:32)…WOW, THAT’S REALLY HARD TO DO! i would rather go to a Pentecostal service & say i love Jesus & then that’s it!!1

i agree with Papa Benedictus XVI when he said we would be better off with fewer total Catholics, and more genuine Catholics!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Pecatoribus!

mark

 

[Atemi]

**Maybe it is something else…or Someone else. **

Impying what?

Implying that the cardinal is maybe speaking of something way more than mere enthusiasm.

…

 

[Kotton]

I was once asked by a protestant “when are you going to leave the Church now that you are charismatic?”

I didn’t have to stop and think what to answer, I immediately said, “I would have to give up too much.” (First of all the Sacraments)

Very similar to my answer; “I can’t accept anything less than what I already have.”

JustaServant:

I have never met a ‘former Catholic’ who truly understood the Church they were leaving.

They know about things the Church teaches, but is their understanding still in it’s infantcy? It often has not progressed from early elementary years. I have even see posts by them quoting Sister who taught them in third grade. Their take at that time never developed into a mature reasoning.

Kotton

 

[rwoehmke]

I have been a faithful, well educated Catholic all my life. Our parish had a Catholic Charismatic Prayer Group for at least 20 years in the 70’s-80’s time period. Some of our parish priests were active members, some were not. We had among other by-laws that we would always be subject to our pastors authority and that our teachings would never contradict orthodox Catholic doctrine or canon law. We had a few so-called Charismatic Masses which included praise and worship songs before and after and some praying in tongues at certain appropriate parts in the Mass. Of course hands were raised by most at various times. Those parish members who belonged to that prayer group were and still are some of the most devoted and orthodox members of our parish. Over that twenty years, there were other parish members who blamed our group for problems that we had nothing to do with. It was almost like they resented anyone who was “on fire” for the Catholic Faith. It is that fire that, in my opinion, is missing from the majority of Catholics who sit in our pews every Sunday of the year and who you only see around the Church during that one hour each week.

In my opinion there are some things we could learn from Pentecostals, and I don’t mean praying in tongues and waving our hands in the air during prayer, although I have no problem with either one. One of them is to learn to recognize and follow the legitimate urgings and gifts of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Another is to be accountable in accepting and following legitimate authority in our lives as Catholics. It is no surprise that accountability is not present in more then a few of our fellow parishioners, who easily miss Mass, are pro-choice, have little interest in their Faith, and so forth.

I once read a book, written in 1935 about how the Holy spirit acts in our lives when we let Him. Sounded a lot like the Catholics I know and knew who were active in the Charismatic Renewal. Yes, I think the Cardinal knows of what he speaks.

 

[crazzeto]

German cardinal addresses concerns in speech at Duquesne University

more…
post-gazette.com/pg/06283/728733-85.stm

My comment:
The Pentecostal movement was started in the 1920s by a man who later became a member of the KKK. One of his students (whom he insisted sit in the hall while he lectured) was an uneducated black man who was the pastor of the ‘Azuza Street revival’. It finds its roots in the ‘Holiness’ movement that actually started in England around the 18th century.
Charismatic/Pentecostal ‘worship’ is the exact opposite of liturgical worship and I seriously cannot see what Catholics can ‘learn’ from this movement, unless he is speaking of enthusiasm. But that tends to be an outward expression that is very superficial.
Across the Tiber I have been in a few of these services. They go from very mild (just a few hands raised while singing) to wild (watching a nerdy preacher do the ‘Benny Hinn bunny hop’ across the platform).
Keep in mind however that many of the people in the pews of these churches are searching for the supernatural, an encounter with God. It is very easy for them to mistake the counterfiet and demonic for that encounter.
Catholics have that quiet encounter in the Eucharist. But when you remove the Eucharist from worship, you forever are looking for something to replace it with.
So, with all due respect to the Cardinal, the opposite is true. Pentecostals have a lot to learn from Catholics.

I took that more interms of what ministries and oppertunities for involvment parishes offer. The parish I grew up at didn’t have a lot of such oppertunities. More over the pastor’s generally tended to be quite old, and boring (of course maybe that’s just my perspective as a kid). There is some oppertunity to retain authentic worship, but at the same time get the community more involved. I’m happy to say my home parish is offering a lot of great programs like Catholics come home, free apologetics CDs as well as other general faith commentary on CD, and seminars and stuff.

The parish I’m at here in NC is great too.

 

[neophyte]

Impying what?

Atemi believes that the Catholic Church is not Christian, that it preaches a different Gospel than that given by Christ through the Apostles, and that the Eucharist is most certainly not the Body and precious Blood of the Lord.

 

[Drawmack]

Atemi believes that the Catholic Church is not Christian, that it preaches a different Gospel than that given by Christ through the Apostles, and that the Eucharist is most certainly not the Body and precious Blood of the Lord.

It is against forum rules to talk about one another; we are supposed to talk about the issue at hand.