Learn from Pentecostals, Catholic leader says

[NHInsider]

That is quite different from today’s. plus, the Jews are so different in honoring God. today, all we want to do is play music so we can be entertained.

Wow, what a proclamation.

Music is a gift of God. The Scripture is filled with exhortations that we use music to praise God. The Church has a long history of using music, of various styles, in worship.

Many of us sincerely incorporate music into our worship with no thought of “entertainment” whatsoever. Even if you have not had this experience, please don’t be so quick to condemn.

 

[DavidB]

I attended a pentecostal church of about 3,000 in the 80’s and 90’s that was about 80% former Catholics, including myself.

If you are truly interesting in learning some of the lessons that Cardinal was asking for, read on and I’ll try to share from my perspective.

So what drew us to a pentecostal church?

1. Pentecostals are very well educated in the Word of God. Many like to mischaracterize them as being all emotional and simple-minded, but I found just the opposite to be true. They really wanted to know the meat of the Word of God. We got a 5 minute milk homily every Sunday morning from our priests in Catholic Church. If I heard one more sermon on the Good Samaritan, I was going to scream. When I arrived in the pentecostal church, we got 30-45 min in-depth sermons each week and everyone read their Bibles all the time. We brought them to church. We attended Bible studies outside of Church. We read lots of books explaining the Bible and listened to every program on TV or the radio that taught the Bible. The baptism in the Holy Spirit triggered an intense love for the Word and a desire to know it in-depth that was a need not being met in the Catholic Church. And here is a fact that’s tough for many to swallow, but the average pentecostal knows more about the Word, the Lord and their faith than the average Catholic by an order of magnitude. I’ve lived decades on both sides of this fence and find this to be universally true.
2. Pentecostals love the Lord and each other. Most Catholics I knew were very uncomfortable talking about the Lord or sharing their faith because they really weren’t sure about it - and I came from Catholic parishes numbering the thousands. When it came to worship songs, few Catholics sing or express their love to the Lord and had very little love for each other. As soon as the Eucharists was done, everyone hit the parking lot and nearly run over each other trying to get out of there. Whereas pentecostals were overflowing in their love of God which poured out to each other as well. Pentecostals are at church and in a community all the time. We talk about the Lord to each other non-stop all the time. We spend 2-3 hours there on a Sunday morning compared to 30-45 minutes in the Catholic Church. We often return for several hours on Sunday night and again on Wed night. We usually have at least one a week social activity at the church as well. Most of these things involve more than half the church. People who get baptized in the Spirit need to be free to express their love for God and each other and it’s difficult to do in the Catholic Church where everyone would look at you like you were an alien. When I first stepped into a pentecostal church and joined in with several thousand people all pouring their heart out to God, I thought I’d died and gone to Heaven. I could not believe the night and day difference and being around people of like love and faith.
3. When someone is baptized in the Spirit, they are given powerful gifts of the Spirit to operate in. How are they going to do that in the average Catholic Church? Is the parish open to a prophetic word or tongues and interpretation message from the Lord? Do they recognize the need for the gift of discerning of spirits and how that’s needed in a deliverance/exorcism ministry? Would they recognize and facilitate laying on of hands to heal? Not based on the parishes I knew in my 20 years. But they go to a pentecostal church and the gifts are taught, encouraged, recognized and empowered. Suddenly, if you have gifts of healing to share, the Spirit makes that known and you are praying for people to be healed as part of a team. The Catholic Church stifles the gifts of the Spirit. Pentecostal churches encourage them.

There is more, but that is a sampling of lessons that could be learned from those with hears to ear.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I attended a pentecostal church of about 3,000 in the 80’s and 90’s that was about 80% former Catholics, including myself.

If you are truly interesting in learning some of the lessons that Cardinal was asking for, read on and I’ll try to share from my perspective.

So what drew us to a pentecostal church?

1. Pentecostals are very well educated in the Word of God. Many like to mischaracterize them as being all emotional and simple-minded, but I found just the opposite to be true. They really wanted to know the meat of the Word of God. We got a 5 minute milk homily every Sunday morning from our priests in Catholic Church. If I heard one more sermon on the Good Samaritan, I was going to scream. When I arrived in the pentecostal church, we got 30-45 min in-depth sermons each week and everyone read their Bibles all the time. We brought them to church. We attended Bible studies outside of Church. We read lots of books explaining the Bible and listened to every program on TV or the radio that taught the Bible. The baptism in the Holy Spirit triggered an intense love for the Word and a desire to know it in-depth that was a need not being met in the Catholic Church. And here is a fact that’s tough for many to swallow, but the average pentecostal knows more about the Word, the Lord and their faith than the average Catholic by an order of magnitude. I’ve lived decades on both sides of this fence and find this to be universally true.
2. Pentecostals love the Lord and each other. Most Catholics I knew were very uncomfortable talking about the Lord or sharing their faith because they really weren’t sure about it - and I came from Catholic parishes numbering the thousands. When it came to worship songs, few Catholics sing or express their love to the Lord and had very little love for each other. As soon as the Eucharists was done, everyone hit the parking lot and nearly run over each other trying to get out of there. Whereas pentecostals were overflowing in their love of God which poured out to each other as well. Pentecostals are at church and in a community all the time. We talk about the Lord to each other non-stop all the time. We spend 2-3 hours there on a Sunday morning compared to 30-45 minutes in the Catholic Church. We often return for several hours on Sunday night and again on Wed night. We usually have at least one a week social activity at the church as well. Most of these things involve more than half the church. People who get baptized in the Spirit need to be free to express their love for God and each other and it’s difficult to do in the Catholic Church where everyone would look at you like you were an alien. When I first stepped into a pentecostal church and joined in with several thousand people all pouring their heart out to God, I thought I’d died and gone to Heaven. I could not believe the night and day difference and being around people of like love and faith.
3. When someone is baptized in the Spirit, they are given powerful gifts of the Spirit to operate in. How are they going to do that in the average Catholic Church? Is the parish open to a prophetic word or tongues and interpretation message from the Lord? Do they recognize the need for the gift of discerning of spirits and how that’s needed in a deliverance/exorcism ministry? Would they recognize and facilitate laying on of hands to heal? Not based on the parishes I knew in my 20 years. But they go to a pentecostal church and the gifts are taught, encouraged, recognized and empowered. Suddenly, if you have gifts of healing to share, the Spirit makes that known and you are praying for people to be healed as part of a team. The Catholic Church stifles the gifts of the Spirit. Pentecostal churches encourage them.

There is more, but that is a sampling of lessons that could be learned from those with hears to ear.

all this sounds easy and good. but no, thanks. i will take the hard road, the narrow gate.

besides i dont have the discernment to know who loves or doesnt love the Lord. that is called to the state of the mind. i couldnt really tell you who does or doesnt love the Lord. i cannot judge by seeing a bunch of people screaming and singing all the same time.

i will stick with the Church Jesus found and promised the Spirit of Truth to the ends of time. the suffering Church. i will stay and suffer with the Apostles and Saints who died for the Catholic Faith. you can go and join the screaming group if that is what you like.

God is bringing many holy people into His Church right now. that is the work of the Spirit into His Church. Amazing Grace from our Lord to His Church.

:knight2::knight1:

 

[DavidB]

I didn’t post that to try to convince anyone to leave the Catholic Church. I did it to respond to your Cardinal’s legitimate query so that the Catholic Church might have some insight into what it is about pentecostals that draw Catholics away. It may be tempting to chaulk all of that up to “feel good” insignificant things, but that would be unwise. Most pentecostals bear much fruit for the Lord showing forth their legitimate connection to the Vine (Jesus). And the Holy Spirit is very much at work in them. We are all in the Body of Christ and need to start treating each other in that light. Those whom the Spirit indwells are sealed for the Day of Redemption just as those who are baptized Catholic. We’ll all be gathered around the same banqueting table at the Wedding Feast where our arguments over doctrine and dogma will seem trivial in the light of eternity and His Glory.

 

[DavidB]

One more thought . . . you said it all seems “easy”. Another lesson I learned was that pentecostals are far more serious about living holy and repenting from sin than most any other Christians I’ve encountered, Catholics included. There’s nothing easy about the walk they have. They tend to pray more, worship more and do more in conjunction with the church than most Catholics - does that sound easy?? Trust me, when I got filled with the Holy Spirit, He started dealing with sins and attitudes that never even occurred to me as a Catholic. To some degree, they go overboard in dealing with sin. So concerned are they with not sinning by getting drunk, they ban drinking. So concerned are they in not being involved in lustful thoughts, they ban dancing. Etc. While Catholics fast meat on Friday’s during lent, pentecostals fast from all food for entire days and even weeks throughout the year as led by the Spirit. Do you know what this pentecostal did at his bachelor party 23 years ago? I spent the entire night with a group of 15 friends in prayer and worship just basking in the Lord’s Presence. So you might want to understand what you’re talking about before accusing anyone else of taking an “easy” path. I’m not trying to be snide, the point is most Catholics don’t understand pentecostals at all which is why they are so easily dismissed. Your Cardinal is exercising wisdom, I’m respecting that.

 

[JustaServant]

I didn’t post that to try to convince anyone to leave the Catholic Church. I did it to respond to your Cardinal’s legitimate query so that the Catholic Church might have some insight into what it is about pentecostals that draw Catholics away. It may be tempting to chaulk all of that up to “feel good” insignificant things, but that would be unwise. Most pentecostals bear much fruit for the Lord showing forth their legitimate connection to the Vine (Jesus). And the Holy Spirit is very much at work in them. We are all in the Body of Christ and need to start treating each other in that light. Those whom the Spirit indwells are sealed for the Day of Redemption just as those who are baptized Catholic. We’ll all be gathered around the same banqueting table at the Wedding Feast where our arguments over doctrine and dogma will seem trivial in the light of eternity and His Glory.

David,
Don’t let the fact that I am hard on Pentecostals give you the impression I am anti-Pentecostal. Some of the harshest criticisms of Pentecostalism comes from other pentecostals, and would say things far harsher than I.
I noticed your religion says Charismatic Episcopal. I have a lot of respect for the CEC and conservative Episcopals in general for their stand for Christ.
Incidently, it was a Charismatic Episcopal priest who was a major force in leading me back to the Catholic Church.

 

[DaveBj]

I hear that was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord; it goes like this the fourth, the fifth, the minor fall, the major lift

sorry I couldn’t resist.

(Full disclosure: I was a southern/contemporary gospel piano player for years; I knew exactly what you were talking about. Never mind that it’s also a song lyric.)

DaveBj

 

[brb3]

Another lesson I learned was that pentecostals are far more serious about living holy and repenting from sin than most any other Christians I’ve encountered,

While Catholics fast meat on Friday’s during lent, pentecostals fast from all food for entire days and even weeks throughout the year as led by the Spirit. Do you know what this pentecostal did at his bachelor party 23 years ago? I spent the entire night with a group of 15 friends in prayer and worship just basking in the Lord’s Presence. So you might want to understand what you’re talking about before accusing anyone else of taking an “easy” path. I’m not trying to be snide, the point is most Catholics don’t understand pentecostals at all which is why they are so easily dismissed. Your Cardinal is exercising wisdom, I’m respecting that.

Well said.

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a lock on salvation and often doesn’t fully explain our teaching on ‘no salvation outside the Church’. Catholics need more Charismatic churches in our parishes. JP2 realized this … and he worked to emphasize the crucial role of H.S. to both priests & laity. Gaining Apologists like Tim Staples and Scott Hahn are big pluses for Catholicism. Franciscan U. in Ohio … is a big plus as well.

And, lets not forget the author of this thread … for allowing the topic to emerge Bless you JustaServant … & St. David and his :harp:

 

[tweetymom]

I attended a pentecostal church of about 3,000 in the 80’s and 90’s that was about 80% former Catholics, including myself.

If you are truly interesting in learning some of the lessons that Cardinal was asking for, read on and I’ll try to share from my perspective.

So what drew us to a pentecostal church?

1. Pentecostals are very well educated in the Word of God. Many like to mischaracterize them as being all emotional and simple-minded, but I found just the opposite to be true. They really wanted to know the meat of the Word of God. We got a 5 minute milk homily every Sunday morning from our priests in Catholic Church. If I heard one more sermon on the Good Samaritan, I was going to scream. When I arrived in the pentecostal church, we got 30-45 min in-depth sermons each week and everyone read their Bibles all the time. We brought them to church. We attended Bible studies outside of Church. We read lots of books explaining the Bible and listened to every program on TV or the radio that taught the Bible. The baptism in the Holy Spirit triggered an intense love for the Word and a desire to know it in-depth that was a need not being met in the Catholic Church. And here is a fact that’s tough for many to swallow, but the average pentecostal knows more about the Word, the Lord and their faith than the average Catholic by an order of magnitude. I’ve lived decades on both sides of this fence and find this to be universally true.
2. Pentecostals love the Lord and each other. Most Catholics I knew were very uncomfortable talking about the Lord or sharing their faith because they really weren’t sure about it - and I came from Catholic parishes numbering the thousands. When it came to worship songs, few Catholics sing or express their love to the Lord and had very little love for each other. As soon as the Eucharists was done, everyone hit the parking lot and nearly run over each other trying to get out of there. Whereas pentecostals were overflowing in their love of God which poured out to each other as well. Pentecostals are at church and in a community all the time. We talk about the Lord to each other non-stop all the time. We spend 2-3 hours there on a Sunday morning compared to 30-45 minutes in the Catholic Church. We often return for several hours on Sunday night and again on Wed night. We usually have at least one a week social activity at the church as well. Most of these things involve more than half the church. People who get baptized in the Spirit need to be free to express their love for God and each other and it’s difficult to do in the Catholic Church where everyone would look at you like you were an alien. When I first stepped into a pentecostal church and joined in with several thousand people all pouring their heart out to God, I thought I’d died and gone to Heaven. I could not believe the night and day difference and being around people of like love and faith.
3. When someone is baptized in the Spirit, they are given powerful gifts of the Spirit to operate in. How are they going to do that in the average Catholic Church? Is the parish open to a prophetic word or tongues and interpretation message from the Lord? Do they recognize the need for the gift of discerning of spirits and how that’s needed in a deliverance/exorcism ministry? Would they recognize and facilitate laying on of hands to heal? Not based on the parishes I knew in my 20 years. But they go to a pentecostal church and the gifts are taught, encouraged, recognized and empowered. Suddenly, if you have gifts of healing to share, the Spirit makes that known and you are praying for people to be healed as part of a team. The Catholic Church stifles the gifts of the Spirit. Pentecostal churches encourage them.

There is more, but that is a sampling of lessons that could be learned from those with hears to ear.

Everything you wrote is so true. Went to Assembly fo 16 years and loved every minute of it.

 

[tweetymom]

One more thought . . . you said it all seems “easy”. Another lesson I learned was that pentecostals are far more serious about living holy and repenting from sin than most any other Christians I’ve encountered, Catholics included. There’s nothing easy about the walk they have. They tend to pray more, worship more and do more in conjunction with the church than most Catholics - does that sound easy?? Trust me, when I got filled with the Holy Spirit, He started dealing with sins and attitudes that never even occurred to me as a Catholic. To some degree, they go overboard in dealing with sin. So concerned are they with not sinning by getting drunk, they ban drinking. So concerned are they in not being involved in lustful thoughts, they ban dancing. Etc. While Catholics fast meat on Friday’s during lent, pentecostals fast from all food for entire days and even weeks throughout the year as led by the Spirit. Do you know what this pentecostal did at his bachelor party 23 years ago? I spent the entire night with a group of 15 friends in prayer and worship just basking in the Lord’s Presence. So you might want to understand what you’re talking about before accusing anyone else of taking an “easy” path. I’m not trying to be snide, the point is most Catholics don’t understand pentecostals at all which is why they are so easily dismissed. Your Cardinal is exercising wisdom, I’m respecting that.

Once again you hit the nail on the head!!!

 

[DavidB]

David,
Don’t let the fact that I am hard on Pentecostals give you the impression I am anti-Pentecostal. Some of the harshest criticisms of Pentecostalism comes from other pentecostals, and would say things far harsher than I.
I noticed your religion says Charismatic Episcopal. I have a lot of respect for the CEC and conservative Episcopals in general for their stand for Christ.
Incidently, it was a Charismatic Episcopal priest who was a major force in leading me back to the Catholic Church.

I hear you! I’m in that category of being harder on myself and those in my communion than on others. I’ve been pretty disappointed in several trends impacting charismatic/pentecostals these days myself - which is one of the reasons I moved from the AoG to the CEC 7 years ago. Glad to hear you’re connection to the CEC. We’re a pretty small communion in the States, but where we exist, it seems charismatic Catholics (in particular) seek us out and we find much in common.

God bless!

 

[DavidB]

Well said.

The Catholic Church doesn’t have a lock on salvation and often doesn’t fully explain our teaching on ‘no salvation outside the Church’. Catholics need more Charismatic churches in our parishes. JP2 realized this … and he worked to emphasize the crucial role of H.S. to both priests & laity. Gaining Apologists like Tim Staples and Scott Hahn are big pluses for Catholicism. Franciscan U. in Ohio … is a big plus as well.

And, lets not forget the author of this thread … for allowing the topic to emerge Bless you JustaServant … & St. David and his :harp:

I think you hit on something there! Establishing openly charismatic Catholic congregations in every region would have been a fantastic thing about 30 years ago when the charismatic renewal was thriving so much in the Catholic Church. Just imagine regional powerhouses that drew all of the Spirit-Filled Catholics and a number of non-Catholic charismatics who’d have loved the atmosphere and may have even joined the church. Instead, the leadership didn’t understand them and believed that if they encouraged the renewal it would lead to more people leaving the church so they marginalized them and eventually shut down many of the avenues of charismatic expression. I have no idea what the state of charismatics are in the Catholic Church today. I know they are still very much out there because we have some who join us in worship many Sunday’s. I just don’t know if they feel welcome to operate in the Spirit in the Catholic Church as much as they used to.

 

[wisdomseeker]

you all might want to read this.

here is what the holy father says to the Franciscans.

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=101004

 

[tweetymom]

you all might want to read this.

here is what the holy father says to the Franciscans.

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=101004

And?

 

[Bussi]

Anote for the thread moderator: I have tried to cast this post in a “non-debating” manner, so would you please let me know if I have crossed the line?

My wife and I have been on both sides of the charismatic vs. non-charismatic experience and have benefitted spiritually from both. In the renewal (circa 1977-1985), the bible came alive for me and at times it seemed like my brain was filled with a bright light as I understood what I had read (I really can’t put it into words). I didn’t receive the gift of tongues until five years after I was prayed over for B. O. T. H. S. (There’s a longer story about that.) Although the next morning, as I was walking to a nearby church for daily Mass, the world around me seemed to have a special, brilliant and unusual sparkle to it.

Ultimately, the renewal experience brought even closer to the Church and more traditional worship and our individual approach to the faith. My wife is now a (lay) professed Third order Discalced Carmelite. This is a contemplative order follows a rule established by by St. Theresa of Avila and the teachings of St. John of the Cross and St, Therese of Lisieux. Even so, there are times when she is praying with her long time Carmelite sister and prayer partner, I hear my wife break into and sing in tongues.

As for myself, my problem with the use it or lose it nature of tongues, is that I tend to be so introspective, that it got in the way of retaining them. It’s not that I didn’t want them it’s just that my approach to ends to be more on the cerebral side. I guess it is because my first intense in-depth exposure to the teachings of the Church were based on St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica. Also, in my renewal days, I did learn to worship from the heart something we all have to do as we first learn about the faith on an intellectual level and then must necessarily learn and practice it from the heart.

My academic and career background is in math, physical sciences, electrical/computer engineering which had their effects on my thinking w. r. t. the faith and worship.

Most of all, looking back over my last 70+ years as a cradle Catholic, I can see and am positive that I was led by the H. S. all through my life to where I am in the practice of my faith today. There have been too many events in my life to be able to say that I was and am responsible for making them happen and the subsequent results.

The latest of many was about two years ago when another parish gave our parish a gift of a Christ Renews His Parish Outreach Retreat Weekend. I can’t say that I had made a conscious decision to attend but by Sunday morning I just knew that I had to be involved with CRHP. I had to say yes to the H. S. ( I knew “no” was out the question!). My last two years with CRHP have been so rewarding. i have met and established friendship with many fine Christian men and have experienced great fellowship with them and seen lives turned around 180 degrees, in one case from indifference to being on fire and a "evangelizing his own family.

I say all this because I do believe there is room for different ways of worship in the Church as long as the constant teachings of the Church are observed. We all need to find where we belong in our personal faith walk. Then too, I believe that we are all called to worship God in the particular way He calls us to and which fits us personally. My wife and I are so much alike in some ways (leaning toward the traditional), but I guess I have taken a somewhat different path. Yes, there were a lot of problems in the renewal but mainly they were caused by lack of proper catechesis and knowledge of the faith, yet those who had had better catechesis wound up even closer to the Church.

To my mind the real point is that if the Mass is to have a charismatic nature (and I guess any Mass if celebrated in Spirit and Truth can be considered charismatic) the central focus first of all should be on the re-presentation of the one Holy Sacrifice and that the charismatic music/tongues/etc. be appropriate to and support unity in true worship and praise of God.

God bless…

Bussi

 

[brb3]

you all might want to read this.

here is what the holy father says to the Franciscans.

ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=101004

Read it, twice … and I’m not completely sure what the Father is saying here.

Sounds like he is scolding the Franciscans, telling them to get back in line, and to follow the Papa’s leadership. Benedict can be hard to read … sometimes seming to give with one hand and take away with the other.

What’s the full story here between Benedict and the Franciscans ?

 

[tweetymom]

Read it, twice … and I’m not completely sure what the Father is saying here.

Sounds like he is scolding the Franciscans, telling them to get back in line, and to follow the Papa’s leadership. Benedict can be hard to read … sometimes seming to give with one hand and take away with the other.

What’s the full story here between Benedict and the Franciscans ?

At least I am not the only one who didn’t understand the point.