Learn more about Pope Francis rather than criticize

[Luigi_Daniele]

People may be less upset over the feet washing, if they understood that the Jesuits are very used to having a dispensation from almost every canon that binds other religious. These dispensations are often granted to individual Jesuits, to houses, provinces or to the entire order, depending on the need. This was an arrangement that Ignatius made with the papacy when the order was erected as a pontifical institute. Also, the Jesuits are exempt religious as individuals and as a community. There are points in law that do not bind them or from which they can easily be excused. For example, the Jesuits are excused from praying the Divine Office in choir, even though the law says that all religious in solemn vows (only) must pray the office in community.

This is fantastic. There are 239 ( ) threads on this. Thanks for clearing this up fratello!

…2 (Franciscan) Cardinals

O’Malley and who, fratello?

 

[shelby_sun]

**
Can. 705 A religious raised to the episcopate remains a member of his institute**

Again, if we take the man out of context, we’re going to be confused. Since most of us are not experts in the Jesuit charism, we’ll be learning by observation, unless we want to read about it.

Thank you brother for your post. I didn’t even know some of that information. I would only hope that those who are uneasy about Pope Francis will be open minded and patient for a while. The Jesuits truly want to follow what Christ would do. Pope Francis is having a much harder time adjusting to even living in the guest house and having servant by his side everyday, than those of you uneasy about his ways.

Remember, again, this is not the life he ever wanted because as a Jesuit he was never to try to go higher up in the churches hierarchy. I am sure he was very conflicted when JP II asked him to be a cardinal, but he went where God took him. The Cardinals who elected him (again very quickly) knew this man and must have wanted change in the Church. Pope Francis did not go out of his way to become Pope, so maybe we need to see the Holy Spirits hand in this and believe Pope Francis will bring a different kind of goodness to our church.

I love the Jesuits and I think if give a chance those who are having trouble with him now will also. Try to remember what Christ would do and how he would live if he were on earth today.

 

[Marie5890]

Pope Francis is having a much harder time adjusting to even living in the guest house and having servant by his side everyday, than those of you uneasy about his ways.
.

Not to mention the security detail! The fact that he is surrounded by men who have pretty much vowed to protect him with their very lives must be very HARD for him to do, to submit to humbly…

Must go against the very cloth he is cut out, spiritually speaking.

 

[Lucky7]

Unless we keep him in context, we’re going to get the same impression that Usige so succinctly said, "“yep another tradition out the window; wonder what’s next.”

In reality, what I’ve seen so far is the Roman tradition being replaced by the Ignatian/Franciscan tradition here and there, not totally either. This may be a very good thing for the Church, even though it will take time for people to get comfortable. Since he does not come from the Roman tradition, he does not have the Vatican baggage either.

It seems to me that if we do, as you say, keep him in context, then we should expect a lot of changes (the fact that he is used to getting many dispensations). So the idea “yep another tradition out the window, wonder what’s next” still holds.

I’m curious how having 2 women and non-Catholics in the feet washing coincides with Jesuit/Ignatian/Franciscan tradition. It would seem to me that it is something completely different even within those traditions.

 

[pete_29]

Brother, please bear with me as I don’t communicate my thoughts into words very well. What difference does it make what background the Pope comes from. Francis is the Pope. Who am I to question anything he does? Does this make any sense?

 

[Lucky7]

Brother, please bear with me as I don’t communicate my thoughts into words very well. What difference does it make what background the Pope comes from. Francis is the Pope. Who am I to question anything he does? Does this make any sense?

I think he is trying to show the reasons why he may do things a different way than we are used to. I actually appreciate this because it does help me to better understand much of what he has chosen to do so far. I prefer someone trying to meet me where I am than pointing out how wrong I am for struggling with things and how I should just trust.

 

[Melchior_1]

No, the Pope is not a religious, strictly speaking.

Priests who belong to religious orders are RELEASED from their order’s particular vows and strictures when/if they are consecrated bishop. They no longer are under obedience to the Superior of their order. As a bishop they report directly to the Holy Father.

You are of course correct that the training, the spiritual practices, or the “philosophy” as it were, of a religious order will be part of that man’s identity. For example, perhaps Pope Francis still practices the Ignatian exercises. However, he is no longer bound to.

This is like me saying “I have a new job, therefore the vows and rules established between my wife and I I am no longer a part of.”.

 

[Lormar]

I am re-reading a book that I have had for quite some time about a Jesuit. The name of the book is The Cheerful Ascetic and it is the biography of Fr. Adolphe Petit. I was amazed at the training a man has to go through before he makes Final Profession in the Society of Jesus, and I am wondering if anyone here knows if it is still the same.

I think it said that before they take four years of theology, they take two years of philosophy just to train the men to be clear thinkers. At the end of thirteen years of intense study and much work, they are sent back to the novitiate for a “tertian year”. It said in the book that the reason for this was in case their university studies had dulled their spiritual focus - the tertian year was to remind them why they entered the Jesuits and put the focus back where it belonged - not on books or much learning, but on God.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Wow!
That’s 2 lifetimes worth of study…

 

[saraih]

A lot of the Catholics I have spoken with about Pope Francis and his order misunderstand what the life of a religious involves. Lots seem to think nuns teach and work in hospices and might spend their spare time in cloisters, praying and singing a lot. A high percentage of those people worry about the disappearance of traditional habits from our streets. Some have a highly romanticised and nostalgic and mostly fictional idea of what it was all about to begin with.

I live and work in an area of extreme poverty, so my interactions with religious are more frequent and I’ve got a fairer idea of what they’re up to, and it still confuses me sometimes. Usually I can just ask though. A lot of middle class people in better off neighbourhoods just noticed them disappear some decades ago and never really knew why they ‘only’ ever see Sr Pantsuit these days, if at all.

They might not even have understood to begin with the huge difference between a friar and a priest, having only seen them perform the same roles as each other. Certainly a lot don’t understand the difference between a nun and a sister.

I don’t have a problem with this really, although it is obvious that there is some sort of tragic disconnect between the laity and religious. Some might be due to economic realities - we just don’t mix that much after all. Some might be plain old prejudice against religious. Maybe people are still remembering the false hierarchies that were built pre VII (clergy ‘better’, more authoritative, more holy than everyone else).

Either way, this is a great opportunity to open those doors both ways. Religious can educate us about this and we can support them more. Not just by buying their products online. Really getting to know their work and how it fits in with our whole approach to life. The whole disconnect is very sad in the first place, but now we’re asking questions at least. Greater respect for our religious is the best possible outcome we can hope for.

It might be slow coming, I have read many snide comments about how Pope Francis ‘needs to learn’ how to be Pope in a more secular way so that he doesn’t scandalise us. God forbid we might be forced to learn something from him. But many, many, many questions and much admiration from others that are inspired and rejuvenated by his actions so far.

I hope religious of all stripes will grab this opportunity with both hands, and will be willing to help us to a fuller understanding. A lot have a social media presence already.

 

[graciew]

The key to understanding our new pope is going to be to keep him in context.

1. He’s not European. He’s South American. This is one of the problems that we in the USA and Canada have. Our assumption is that if you’re last name is Italian, because your parents or grandparents were Italian, then you’re Italian. But it does not work the same way in South America. Their focus is on their national culture. He could be the son of Italian immigrants whose only contact with European culture was his two languages: Spanish and Italian. It’s very interesting, because he does not refer to himself as Italian, but as Argentinian. That’s another piece of his context.

.

Brother,What do you mean by problem here is US and Canada for Pope Francis being South American?
As argentinian,I would not refer to myself as anything else…
I do not understand this point from your perspective.

 

[sojo]

Br. JR - A blessed Easter to you!

I have a question for you when you get a chance. I was explaining some of what you taught us about Pope Francis and how his Religious vocation affects/colors his papacy. I pointed out that some of his actions weren’t to get in anyone’s face or to criticize previous popes, but to continue living out his vocation as a religious.

My friend said that when he became pope, his vows as a religious were no longer in effect.

I told her I thought that may be canonically correct - that he was relieved of such vows if he so chose, but that it was also his prerogative to honor his vows that he took as a Jesuit after he became Pope. And in so honoring them, he was obliged to live a more simple, austere life.

Could you clarify? Did his vows as a Jesuit go away when he became Pope? If so, isn’t still OK if he chooses to continue to honor those vows?

As to your original question - I just don’t know. I find the Religious aspect of our Pope to be totally fascinating. As I’m learning more and more about the Religious vocation, I’m even more thrilled that we have a Pope that is teaching us what this is all about. And I’m thinking we may need more Religious vocations and prayer than ever before in history right now, so the timing couldn’t be better.

One thing I’ve noticed since Pope Francis rose to the throne is that I am feeling more drawn to prayer and time alone with the Lord than I’ve felt since my conversion experience. I’m also feeling drawn to more spiritual reading. I didn’t expect this at all. But there’s no denying it - the call is strong and persuasive.

 

[JReducation]

It’s interesting you put it this way. Clearly I am not a religious, but watching Pope Francis’ fidelity to his Jesuit culture has inspired me to be be more “convicted” (since that is the word you used) in the gifts God has given to me.

Sometime I hide them, fearful of others misunderstanding, or even ridicule me. Sometime I hold back because I am not sure “how” to share them, how to use them etc. Or even how to explain them.

But I know I have them. I know that they clearly gifts from God.
I know the Lord will Shepard me when it comes to them. But Pope Francis’s example of living “Do not be afraid” (in the case of being soo very different and even “counter-cultural” from the “norm” of what even the every day devout Catholic may expect) has me repeating “Do not be afraid of being different from the norm, different from what others are expecting of you”

Hope this makes sense.

When God gives a gift, he also provides the support for its use. We just have to launch it.

Brother JR please try to tell us a bit about the particular points of view of Jesuit and Franciscan. Ignatian pedagogy sort of threw me. I have some idea of the spiritual exercises but have never done them as a retreat. What do you mean by “Charism” of their orders. I thought a charism was a gift of the Holy Spirit. I am not really asking for an in-depth analysis, more of a short form - here is the landscape sort of answer.
!

Franciscans are different from other religious in three ways. 1) obedience is absolute, not questions. 2) material poverty is a virtue by which we get to heaven 3) living among the poor is the desire of every Franciscan in order to live at the foot of the cross

Jesuits are different in three ways also. 1) community living is very flexible for them 2) they go where the pope sends them either alone or in a group 3) they’re called to challenge the Church out of her comfort zone. Ignatius really rattled the Catholics of his day.

. Pope Francis is having a much harder time adjusting to even living in the guest house and having servant by his side everyday, than those of you uneasy about his ways.

Having a shadow would drive me bonkers.

Pope Francis will bring a different kind of goodness to our church.

I understand what you’re saying. There is only one kind of goodness and every pope in the past 200 years has delivered on that. What Pope Francis brings is a different delivery model.

Not to mention the security detail! The fact that he is surrounded by men who have pretty much vowed to protect him with their very lives must be very HARD for him to do, to submit to humbly…

I saw an interview that Joan Lewis did with the head of security. Pope Francis does not submit to them at all. Whenever they think that they’re going left, he commands them to go right. They love him, because they say that he’s very pleasant and kind. He tells the Swiss Guards not to stand too long. To take a break and have a seat.

Must go against the very cloth he is cut out, spiritually speaking.

You lost me.

It seems to me that if we do, as you say, keep him in context, then we should expect a lot of changes (the fact that he is used to getting many dispensations). So the idea “yep another tradition out the window, wonder what’s next” still holds.

Yes and no. If one holds to tradition as being only the Roman tradition, that would be a yes. If one accepts that the schools of religious life have always played a significant part in the life of the Church and that those traditions are often older than many of the Roman traditions and that they are equally Catholic, then no. The fact is that we lost contact with many of the religious traditions with urban development. That’s only about 100 to 150 years old.

 

[JReducation]

I’m curious how having 2 women and non-Catholics in the feet washing coincides with Jesuit/Ignatian/Franciscan tradition.

Both of those schools, along with the Dominican school share something in common. They would place the pastoral need over the rubric. In this case, one would look at the fact that one is celebrating the liturgy for a very special group that is not the typical Sunday Catholic crowd. One has to ask the purpose of one’s being there. As Pope Francis said that his purpose for being there was because his heart told him that that’s where the pope needed to be and that the same spirit told him that the pope needed to do whatever it took, within reason, to bring the love of Christ to all the youngsters, not just the males and not just the Catholics. Jesuits, Franciscans and Dominicans, maybe Salesians as well, would concur that the tone, the message and those rituals that are not really part of the mass can and should adapt to the population.

Brother, please bear with me as I don’t communicate my thoughts into words very well. What difference does it make what background the Pope comes from. Francis is the Pope. Who am I to question anything he does? Does this make any sense?

We’re not supposed to be questioning or second-guessing him. But in today’s media driven world there seem to be two things happening and neither are good. There is the liberal media that is interpreting the fact that he’s different from the last pope as meaning that he’s going to make changes in the Church’s doctrines. We know that won’t happen. But the propaganda machine is in full force.

Then there is the traditionalist crowd that is not very well versed in Catholic tradition. It’s understanding of Catholic tradition is what the secular clergy have presented as Catholic tradition. The truth is that Catholic tradition is very rich and the fact that one can replace one gesture with another or even do something differently such as the way that the pope dresses, if looked at within the scope of universal Catholic tradition, one should be albe to say, “Oh, the Jesuits do that or the Franciscans do that.” The fact is that when Francis and Ignatius were around, it was their intent that whatever they taught to their sons would be taught to the laity. Lay people who grew up in these respective environments think nothing of a pope living in a hotel rather than a palace. Ignatius and Francis wouldn’t live in a palace either and both came from money. Previous popes who came from religious life brought their customs to the papacy.

I think it said that before they take four years of theology, they take two years of philosophy just to train the men to be clear thinkers. At the end of thirteen years of intense study and much work, they are sent back to the novitiate for a “tertian year”. It said in the book that the reason for this was in case their university studies had dulled their spiritual focus - the tertian year was to remind them why they entered the Jesuits and put the focus back where it belonged - not on books or much learning, but on God.

This is common to Benedictines, Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans and Carmelites. We place the focus on being rather than doing. For example, you can be a religious in any of these orders and never be a priest. That’s fine. The purpose of the orders is not to celebrate sacraments. The purpose of the order is to live the Gospel in a very specific manner. The focus of the order is on being a particular kind of person before God. You accommodate ministry to the way you are, not yourself to the ministry. That’s why we can justify making changes in rituals that are optional, because we accommodate to who we are, rather than accommodate to the ritual, unless it’s a ritual that must be done a certain way for the sake of liceity and validity.

A lot of the Catholics I have spoken with about Pope Francis and his order misunderstand what the life of a religious involves. They might not even have understood to begin with the huge difference between a friar and a priest, having only seen them perform the same roles as each other. Certainly a lot don’t understand the difference between a nun and a sister.

Most Catholics don’t know that most priests are not religious and that one can be a religious without being a priest or a priest without being a religious, because they are different callings. This is the disconnect of which you speak below. Also most Catholics were taught by sisters. Sisters are not religious in solemn vows. Sisters do not belong to an order per se. Sisters make simple vows and belong to a congregation that dedicates its life to a particular form of service. They do accommodate the way they live to fit their ministry. In an order, you accommodate the ministry to fit the way you live, which is what Pope Francis does, because he was formed in an order. The Jesuits are an order.

It might be slow coming, I have read many snide comments about how Pope Francis ‘needs to learn’ how to be Pope in a more secular way so that he doesn’t scandalise us.

I don’t think he’s going to become more like the secular popes for two reasons. The first is age. Than is 76. He has lived the Jesuit life for over 40 years and has guided his ministry following the example of St. Francis for as many years. The second reason is that I truly believe that the Church needs to work on its spiritual life right now. Pope John Paul worked with us in developing means of pastoral care that responded to new situations. Pope Benedict worked on educating us in the faith. Pope Francis seems to be trying to make us use what we received from John Paul and Benedict, not just know it, but to really use it to change who we are, how we do things and how we serve.

 

[JReducation]

Brother,What do you mean by problem here is US and Canada for Pope Francis being South American?
As argentinian,I would not refer to myself as anything else…
I do not understand this point from your perspective.

In the USA and Canada people identify themselves as Irish, Italian, French, etc, even when their families have been here for several generations. In South America, someone life Pope Francis does not say, “I’m Italian.” He would say, “I’m Argentinian.” If necessary, he would add that his father came from Italy. Actually, his mother was born in Argentina.

Br. JR - A blessed Easter to you!

I have a question for you when you get a chance. I was explaining some of what you taught us about Pope Francis and how his Religious vocation affects/colors his papacy. I pointed out that some of his actions weren’t to get in anyone’s face or to criticize previous popes, but to continue living out his vocation as a religious.

My friend said that when he became pope, his vows as a religious were no longer in effect.

I told her I thought that may be canonically correct - that he was relieved of such vows if he so chose, but that it was also his prerogative to honor his vows that he took as a Jesuit after he became Pope. And in so honoring them, he was obliged to live a more simple, austere life.

Could you clarify? Did his vows as a Jesuit go away when he became Pope? If so, isn’t still OK if he chooses to continue to honor those vows?

Can. 705 A religious raised to the episcopate remains a member of his institute

From Canon Law. When he became a bishop, he remained a member of his order. The Bishop of Rome is no more of a bishop than any other bishop. He is the Pontiff by default. However, the Petrine Ministry is not part of Holy Orders. It can only be assumed by one who is a bishop, because the successor of Peter must be the bishop of Rome.

However, the Bishop of Rome, like any other bishop, remains a member of his order.

The difference between him and another Jesuit has to do with governance. A bishop is not under the authority of the religious superior. This avoids conflicts of interest. He is still obedient to the founder and the mission and vision of his order. The same canon gives him the freedom to set aside his order’s vision, in the even that there is a conflict wit his ministry as bishop. However, any good lawyer will tell you that the flexibility was built in only for areas of conflict. It’s not to become the norm that a bishop suddenly drops all semblance of his religious life. Because not everything in his religious life is in conflict with his role as bishop. Such a radical separation from his order is unnecessary.

The Code of 1917 said that when a religious became a bishop he ceased to be a religious. The Church granted an automatic dispensation from vows. That was abrogated in 1983, because it did not work. Two things happened. Many religious decline the bishopric. They felt strongly about leaving their order. The second thing that happened is that those who did accept and became bishops often felt very isolated. They had little in common with the diocesan clergy whom they led, because they were formed in two different worlds. They no longer had the right to “hang out” with their brothers. They were no longer brothers. The 1983 code chose the better option. Let the bishop be a religious and participate in as much of his order’s life as possible, even if it’s just in it life or prayer and its way of thinking and seeing the Church.

 

[graciew]

In the USA and Canada people identify themselves as Irish, Italian, French, etc, even when their families have been here for several generations. In South America, someone life Pope Francis does not say, “I’m Italian.” He would say, “I’m Argentinian.” If necessary, he would add that his father came from Italy. Actually, his mother was born in Argentina.

Church.

You would say you are American,wouldn´t you?
I still do not understand why you say this would be a problem in US and Canada so as to understand his context…Sorry…The whole point is confusing,because you do not say just “He is a foreigner…”
I understand the other perspective,cause I am argentinian,but I do not understand yours…

 

[graciew]

Happy Easter!

 

[graciew]

The key to understanding our new pope is going to be to keep him in context.

1. He’s not European. He’s South American. This is one of the problems that we in the USA and Canada have. Our assumption is that if you’re last name is Italian, because your parents or grandparents were Italian, then you’re Italian. But it does not work the same way in South America. Their focus is on their national culture. He could be the son of Italian immigrants whose only contact with European culture was his two languages: Spanish and Italian. It’s very interesting, because he does not refer to himself as Italian, but as Argentinian. That’s another piece of his context.
   .

I am putting my previous question in other words cause I can´t see the issue …, if I were Pope Francis(forgive me for this ,please) what do I have to understand,so as to better understand you and your perceptions?
or is it something Pope should know or knows? Thanks,Brother.

 

[JReducation]

You would say you are American,wouldn´t you?
I still do not understand why you say this would be a problem in US and Canada so as to understand his context…Sorry…The whole point is confusing,because you do not say just “He is a foreigner…”
I understand the other perspective,cause I am argentinian,but I do not understand yours…

Let me give an example to see if it helps.

In Argentina there are people whose families came from Spain, Italy, Germany and UK. That’s enough for now.

When I say to you in Spanish, ¿Qué eres?

You would say, Soy Argentino. You would not say Soy Italiano, unless you were born in Italy.

In the USA, when we identify ourselves we rarely say, “I’m an American.” We say, “I’m Italian” Why? Because my grandparents came from Italy.

For an American audience, the tendency is to look at Pope Francis and say “Él no es Latino porque sus padres son Italianos, por lo tanto él es Italiano.”

In the States he’s viewed as an Italian, more than an Argentinian.

This is changing slowly in the States, but it’s not at the same place where it is in South America where people don’t define themselves by their parents or their grandparents… We still have pockets in the USA where people define themselves by their parents and grandparents.

If we define Pope Francis as Italian, we’re taking him out of context. He’s not Italian. He’s Argentinian, born and raised. He actually speaks Italian with a Spanish accent. You can tell that he’s not a native speaker.

Does that help?

 

[graciew]

Does that help?

Yes,it does…vivo en otro mundo con respecto a muchas cosas,disculpe…Thanks for taking the time and trouble to answer and Happy Easter,Brother