L
Lucky7
Guest
This is all great, but it would mean even more if he also said it as Pope.
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M
McCall1981
Guest
I have heard way too many Catholics state that since Vatican II we are cool with all religions…that you don’t have to be Catholic anymore…all religions point to Heaven…that, unlike Evangelical/Fundamental Christianity, the Catholic Church doesn’t say you have to be Christian.QUOTE]
Very true, I guess this is the flip side of what I said. When it comes to the salvation of souls we can’t be fuzzy or ambiguous.
I guess I feel like Francis is covering this base since he is so strongly focused on Christ and the cross. I mean his homilies and such are VERY Christ centered, so I think in this way he’s the opposite of the fuzzy “all religions lead to heaven” type.
It’s like what he has said so far has been great, and we’re worried about what he **hasn’t **said yet. But as I really look at what he is saying, I’m slowly finding it harder and harder to justify my skepticism of him (which is great). I’m trying to be as patient as I can, which is very tough, but I think its slowly paying off.
C
CB_Catholic
Guest
Yes, it makes sense, and this is a good post to reflect upon.
J
JReducation
Guest
Clarity is a wonderful thing, because it helps people see what comes next. However, clarity is not always going to happen. One of the best examples is the bible. If one is not well educated in biblical sciences, one can read and read and not understand most of it. Often those who are well educated in biblical sciences don’t understand everything, because it’s not clear to us. It was quite clear to those who wrote it. It was their language, their culture, their terminology, their examples. It never occurred to them that people would read these writings thousands of years into the future. We, on the other hand, depend on a Magisterium to extrapolate and interpret for us.
The same thing happens with popes and other members of the hierarchy. It does not always occur to one that what one is doing in a particular situation is of any interest or is relevant to those who are not involved. Those who are not directly involved need to understand this fact and we need to learn to live with it. Most of the time, the pope and the bishops are not thinking about people like me. Very rarely are people like me on their radar. We have to accept that our concerns are not that important to the Church. The Church has bigger concerns. In addition, we have to accept that at times we have to wait for the Church to see the need to interpret and explain certain things. This requires patience.
One day, a brother came to me and said, “Father, I don’t understand why you did such and such.” To which I answered, “Don’t worry about it. I understood and it is only I who has to answer to God for my actions, not you. You only have to answer for your obedience or lack thereof.” The brother went away happy, because he was relieved of a burden. Whatever happened, was my problem, not his.
The same thing happens with popes and other members of the hierarchy. It does not always occur to one that what one is doing in a particular situation is of any interest or is relevant to those who are not involved. Those who are not directly involved need to understand this fact and we need to learn to live with it. Most of the time, the pope and the bishops are not thinking about people like me. Very rarely are people like me on their radar. We have to accept that our concerns are not that important to the Church. The Church has bigger concerns. In addition, we have to accept that at times we have to wait for the Church to see the need to interpret and explain certain things. This requires patience.
One day, a brother came to me and said, “Father, I don’t understand why you did such and such.” To which I answered, “Don’t worry about it. I understood and it is only I who has to answer to God for my actions, not you. You only have to answer for your obedience or lack thereof.” The brother went away happy, because he was relieved of a burden. Whatever happened, was my problem, not his.
A
allhers
Guest
Our Sunday Visitor had a very good article too about Pope Francis:
Mar-29-2013
Pope washes feet of 12 young detainees to serve them 'from the heart:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301429.htm
Seems to me, we just need to look in the right places for the information we seek. If you want information on the Church, you have to go to the source.
Mar-29-2013
Pope washes feet of 12 young detainees to serve them 'from the heart:
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301429.htm
Seems to me, we just need to look in the right places for the information we seek. If you want information on the Church, you have to go to the source.
J
JReducation
Guest
I found a good article. I’ve been telling everyone who approaches me with questions about Pope Francis that in order to understand him, one has to understand his context. Unlike other popes, this one is a religious.
There are people who feel strongly that he has to accommodate to the office. But this is easier said than done when one is a religious. I once met the wife of an ex-religious. In casual conversation she mentioned that life with her husband was like living in a monastery. Without intruding into their private lives, I asked her if she could explain this to me. She started to give me examples by comparing her husband to her brothers and brothers-in-law who were also husbands. When she finished I could see that even if you take the religious from the religious house and put him someplace else, after all those years of formation, there is little chance that you will ever think and act the same again.
Think of a computer whose operating system has been replaced. It can no longer operate as it did with the previous system. That system is gone. So too a male religious who completes his 10 years of religious formation, receives a new operating system. The old operating system that he used to function in the bigger world is rooted out and transformed. There’s no way that you can ever become any other person than what you are, a religious. Whether you’re a priest or a brother in a religious community, you’re a religious. Your ministry does not change how you think and how you act. Whether you’re the cook or the archbishop, if you’re a member of a religious community, you’re a religious. You will approach cooking and running an archdiocese very differently from your counterparts outside of your religious community. When anyone asks you to think outside that box, it hurts. I’m not talking about the emotional pain that one feels when one is insulted. I’m talking about the pain one feels when trying to pass through a very narrow opening. You feel crushed, so you back off.
If you belong to one of the major orders such as Benedictines, Salesians, Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians, or Jesuits the one thing that is drilled into you is that you may not follow Christ through any other approach than that of your founder. Your founder becomes your mentor, your role model, your master. Your life is spent trying to find your way to Christ using his method. You may know and love all of the other spiritual masters, but none of them are going to replace your spiritual father. What often happens is that you combine the method of your spiritual father with that of another spiritual father who is complimentary.
In this case, a Jesuit can find it easy to combine Ignatius with Francis, because Ignatius expressed a profound desire to achieve what Francis of Assisi had achieved. He wrote about it to his sons. It is less likely for a Franciscan to become Jesuit.
As one grows in his understanding of Ignatius and his method for reaching evangelical perfection, one also grows in understanding his sons. Understanding does not necessarily mean the same thing as embracing. I understand the Ignatian way; however, I cannot embrace it, because it is in conflict with the Franciscan way. Nonetheless, I can respect it for the good that it is and the good that it does for the Church. As we enter a new pontificate with a religious pope, we should attempt to understand his context. Holding on to the belief that the office calls for this and that is not going to get us very far.
The cardinals discerned that this was the man whom the Holy Spirit wanted to succeed Peter as Bishop of Rome and Pontiff over the universal Church. They knew that he was going to be different from the secular bishops who have occupied the Chair of Peter. These men are not blind or dumb. But they believed that this was the charism that the Holy Spirit wanted in the next pope. So they chose Jorge Bergoglio.
Here is the article that I mentioned at the beginning. It’s not comprehensive, but it’s a start.
Pope Francis: A Jesuit Self In The World
There are people who feel strongly that he has to accommodate to the office. But this is easier said than done when one is a religious. I once met the wife of an ex-religious. In casual conversation she mentioned that life with her husband was like living in a monastery. Without intruding into their private lives, I asked her if she could explain this to me. She started to give me examples by comparing her husband to her brothers and brothers-in-law who were also husbands. When she finished I could see that even if you take the religious from the religious house and put him someplace else, after all those years of formation, there is little chance that you will ever think and act the same again.
Think of a computer whose operating system has been replaced. It can no longer operate as it did with the previous system. That system is gone. So too a male religious who completes his 10 years of religious formation, receives a new operating system. The old operating system that he used to function in the bigger world is rooted out and transformed. There’s no way that you can ever become any other person than what you are, a religious. Whether you’re a priest or a brother in a religious community, you’re a religious. Your ministry does not change how you think and how you act. Whether you’re the cook or the archbishop, if you’re a member of a religious community, you’re a religious. You will approach cooking and running an archdiocese very differently from your counterparts outside of your religious community. When anyone asks you to think outside that box, it hurts. I’m not talking about the emotional pain that one feels when one is insulted. I’m talking about the pain one feels when trying to pass through a very narrow opening. You feel crushed, so you back off.
If you belong to one of the major orders such as Benedictines, Salesians, Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians, or Jesuits the one thing that is drilled into you is that you may not follow Christ through any other approach than that of your founder. Your founder becomes your mentor, your role model, your master. Your life is spent trying to find your way to Christ using his method. You may know and love all of the other spiritual masters, but none of them are going to replace your spiritual father. What often happens is that you combine the method of your spiritual father with that of another spiritual father who is complimentary.
In this case, a Jesuit can find it easy to combine Ignatius with Francis, because Ignatius expressed a profound desire to achieve what Francis of Assisi had achieved. He wrote about it to his sons. It is less likely for a Franciscan to become Jesuit.
As one grows in his understanding of Ignatius and his method for reaching evangelical perfection, one also grows in understanding his sons. Understanding does not necessarily mean the same thing as embracing. I understand the Ignatian way; however, I cannot embrace it, because it is in conflict with the Franciscan way. Nonetheless, I can respect it for the good that it is and the good that it does for the Church. As we enter a new pontificate with a religious pope, we should attempt to understand his context. Holding on to the belief that the office calls for this and that is not going to get us very far.
The cardinals discerned that this was the man whom the Holy Spirit wanted to succeed Peter as Bishop of Rome and Pontiff over the universal Church. They knew that he was going to be different from the secular bishops who have occupied the Chair of Peter. These men are not blind or dumb. But they believed that this was the charism that the Holy Spirit wanted in the next pope. So they chose Jorge Bergoglio.
Here is the article that I mentioned at the beginning. It’s not comprehensive, but it’s a start.
Pope Francis: A Jesuit Self In The World
M
Marie5890
Guest
Thanks for the link, Bro.
L
Lucky7
Guest
It’sinteresting that you posted that article Brother because I saw it (I think yesterday or the day before) and I immediately thought of your posts.
I still wonder whether the Pope will struggle with his Jesuit-ness and his Pope-ness. Although the two can and should be able to go hand in hand it seems to me that there can be conflict there (the whole doing what Jesus wants me to do vs what does Jesus wants me to do for the WHOLE Church/world…if that makes sense.)
I still wonder whether the Pope will struggle with his Jesuit-ness and his Pope-ness. Although the two can and should be able to go hand in hand it seems to me that there can be conflict there (the whole doing what Jesus wants me to do vs what does Jesus wants me to do for the WHOLE Church/world…if that makes sense.)
C
choliks
Guest
I think the conflict is with those who can’t or would not like to see that being a Jesuit will aid him in his ministry as Pope. Already, his Jesuit formation is showing in his actions and homilies. The conflict will be with those who will try to measure Pope Francis against his predecessors, particularly the secular popes.
I also noticed that people who comment or criticize our Holy Father from both ends of the spectrum rarely took note of his background as a religious, as a Jesuit. It seems that they always try to fit the Pope onto their own agenda. That’s a surefire formula for failure.
It’s actually a question of who I am, where i am now, what I ought to do, what more can I do for God vs. what the world wants to see me do. The Pope’s mission comes from God not from the people. It can be argued that he is the servant of all so he should listen to the demands of the people. However, his call to be a servant came from God, so he will listen to Him first.
J
JReducation
Guest
First of all, I have to say that you gave me a chuckle here.
Actually, I think that being a Jesuit is actually helpful. It’s a very disciplined spirituality focused on the relationship between the Beloved and me. It’s a spirituality that is very detached from the opinions of the world, which would be liberating for a pope. The ultimate question is “What does God want me to do?” Not, “What does custom, the office, the curia or the people want me to do?” God will never fail to respond to such a question, especially when the person asking it is the successor of Peter.
I was rather amazed by the article. Long before I read it, I had been thinking and posting that this man is being spoken about has if he had no background or context of his own. I’m not alone in that concern.
The extreme left, takes him out of context and sees him doing all kinds of things that are not compatible with Catholicism. A Jesuit is a very Catholic person. The extreme right takes him out of context and sees him deviating from papal tradition and begins to get nervous. A Jesuit is not a very traditional person. Ignatius never meant for his sons to be traditional religious. He deliberately created his order in a way that it allows for the members to be a challenge to the Church at every turn. Part of his vision was to serve the Church by rattling people out of their comfort zone. He begins by rattling his own sons through the Spiritual Exercises.
V
vames
Guest
If you are referring to this, then it’s very useful to know that Benedict is far from being the only possible reference or source. In fact, the reader of Fr Z wanted to say that Francis wasn’t able to think for himself, so he felt the need to paraphrase/copy/plagiarize Benedict. As if the idea that women weren’t considered reliable witnesses is Benedict’s exclusive idea.
Check out this, for example:
patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/03/women-at-the-tomb-are-weak-evidence-for-the-resurrection/
C
choliks
Guest
Wow. Do they know that theologians learn from each other? They borrow ideas from each other.
V
vames
Guest
Perhaps the reader who thought he “caught” Francis copying Benedict is really young and new to this; but the owner of that blog should have known better.
wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/pope-francis-general-audience-focused-on-women-feminists-arent-going-to-be-happy/#comment-402972
J
JReducation
Guest
Red is mine.
THAT’S IT. I’m leaving the Catholic Church and religious life. Am going to find a very high mountain on which to sit for the rest of my life. One can’t win with Catholics. If you disagree, you’re a dissenter. If you agree, you can’t think for yourself. Either way, a student of theology can’t win.
I’ll never quote or paraphrase Aquinas, Bonaventure, Bellarmine, Teresa or Catherine again. :nope:
Go figure!
A
asnate
Guest
An interesting article
catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2136/pope_francis_and_henri_de_lubac_sj.aspx#.UV14-lfPkhM
giving an insight on why Pope Francis has been chosen and what his papacy will be about.
catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2136/pope_francis_and_henri_de_lubac_sj.aspx#.UV14-lfPkhM
giving an insight on why Pope Francis has been chosen and what his papacy will be about.
V
vames
Guest
One can’t win with Catholics. If you disagree, you’re a dissenter. If you agree, you can’t think for yourself. Either way, a student of theology can’t win.
Spot on, as usual!!
M
Mrs_Sally
Guest
I think it is actually a very insulting and prejudiced view of Pope Francis. The writer seems to be saying that since he had never heard of the Bishop of Buenos Aires before, he can’t be very smart. It just reeks of the “besides he’s from Latin America and doesn’t speak English so he’s got to be stupid” vibe.
D
dans0622
Guest
Hello,
After reading the comment you so helpfully linked to, I see that the person who brought it up said nothing about Pope Francis not being able to think for himself. I don’t see any reason for you to say that person “wanted to say” this. The reader pointed it out, that’s all.
I also don’t know why you want to ascribe some illicit motive to Fr. Z for talking about it or suggest that he “doesn’t know better” re: recycling theological insights. It seems he simply suggested in a follow-up post that we try looking at what Pope Francis is doing/saying through the lens of Pope Benedict XVI. In other words, pay attention to the continuity/similarities and don’t get so freaked out about how they are different.
Dan
J
JReducation
Guest
The red is mine.
Since Francis is the Pontiff. I would have said it the other way around. Look at what Pope Benedict said through the lens of Pope Francis. How does that sound?
V
vames
Guest
If you prepare a speech and then someone says that you “pretty much copied your ideas from pages 263-263” of a book, how do yo interpret it? As a friendly reminder that great minds think alike or as a suggestion that you used an idea/quote without attributing it?
And then the owner of a blog expands upon the topic, referring to your speech as being written by “you or your scribbling elves”. How do you interpret it? As a friendly joke about your lack of free time or disposition to write speeches?
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