Learn more about Pope Francis rather than criticize

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vames said:
Perhaps the reader who thought he “caught” Francis copying Benedict is really young and new to this; but the owner of that blog should have known better.
wdtprs.com/blog/2013/04/pope-francis-general-audience-focused-on-women-feminists-arent-going-to-be-happy/#comment-402972
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For whatever reason you seem to have a strong dislike for Fr. Z (you heavily critisized the other Fr. Z article I posted in a different forum), which is fine, you obviously dont have to like him.

The point of what I said about about Francis using some of Benedicts language was intended for Lucky7. He had expressed concern over what Francis had said, so I pointed out that Benedict (who he and I both like very much) said essentially the same thing in order to reassure him. This is not a negative against Francis, this is complimentary of him. Francis has quoted, sited, and mentioned Benedict numerous times so far. That is a good thing, and also very normal, popes site each other all the time.

Neither Fr. Z, nor me, nor Lucky7 said anything about Francis not thinking for himself. The article is complimentary of Francis. If you dont like the article thats fine, but please dont turn it, or my comments into something they are not.
 
McCall1981 said:
For whatever reason you seem to have a strong dislike for Fr. Z (you heavily critisized the other Fr. Z article I posted in a different forum), which is fine, you obviously dont have to like him.

The point of what I said about about Francis using some of Benedicts language was intended for Lucky7. He had expressed concern over what Francis had said, so I pointed out that Benedict (who he and I both like very much) said essentially the same thing in order to reassure him. This is not a negative against Francis, this is complimentary of him. Francis has quoted, sited, and mentioned Benedict numerous times so far. That is a good thing, and also very normal, popes site each other all the time.

Neither Fr. Z, nor me, nor Lucky7 said anything about Francis not thinking for himself. The article is complimentary of Francis. If you dont like the article thats fine, but please dont turn it, or my comments, into something they are not.
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JReducation said:
The red is mine.

Since Francis is the Pontiff. I would have said it the other way around. Look at what Pope Benedict said through the lens of Pope Francis. How does that sound?
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Hello,

That’s good. I think it’s pertinent, in this context, that many of those who read Fr. Z’s blog (maybe even Fr. Z himself, given his personal history with Card. Ratzinger/Benedict…even though he did meet Card. Bergoglio a time or two…) are very attached to Pope Benedict and have concerns/worries/uncertainties about Pope Francis. For them, a baby step in appropriately appreciating Pope Francis may be to see the connection between the two popes, with Benedict as the “lens.”

Dan
 
vames said:
If you prepare a speech and then someone says that you “pretty much copied your ideas from pages 263-263” of a book, how do yo interpret it? As a friendly reminder that great minds think alike or as a suggestion that you used an idea/quote without attributing it?

And then the owner of a blog expands upon the topic, referring to your speech as being written by “you or your scribbling elves”. How do you interpret it? As a friendly joke about your lack of free time or disposition to write speeches?
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Hello,

If the person who says it is a big “fan” of the book’s author, and is concerned about how I relate to that author, I would take it as a compliment and a sign that maybe I am finding common ground with this doubtful/worried/uncertain person. I would be pleased that I made a meaningful connection to him/her, putting his/her heart a bit more at ease with me.

Popes don’t write everything they deliver. Given his experience working for the Holy See, Fr. Z is pointing out the reality of the situation (which is not a secret). I don’t think there is a need for any “interpretation” and I doubt I will have anything more to say about this matter.

Dan
 
McCall1981 said:
The point of what I said about about Francis using some of Benedicts language was intended for Lucky7. He had expressed concern over what Francis had said, so I pointed out that Benedict (who he and I both like very much) said essentially the same thing in order to reassure him. This is not a negative against Francis, this is complimentary of him. Francis has quoted, sited, and mentioned Benedict numerous times so far. That is a good thing, and also very normal, popes site each other all the time.
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I understand your intention to alleviate Lucky7’s concerns. I also understand Fr Z’s intention to alleviate others’ concerns. But when Francis wanted to quote Benedict elsewhere , he openly attributed the quotes to Benedict, precisely to emphasize the intellectual continuity between the two of them. Here, instead, he doesn’t quote anybody, simply because the idea about women as unreliable witnesses has been discussed by various authors. So if one says that Pope Francis “or his scribbling elves” copied an idea from page XX of a book (without citing the author), this can’t really be a complimentary remark about Pope Francis.

And one last thing about all these concerned, unsure, worried people: if they are rational and reasonable adults, they won’t really need to be so slowly, carefully reassured (“baby steps”, as @Dans says) that the new pope is orthodox because he quotes/paraphrases/copies Benedict’s books. Those who can think for themselves will perceive his orthodoxy anyway. Meanwhile, those who choose to remain concerned will ignore his homilies and audiences anyway and will continue to wonder why he doesn’t genuflect enough or why he doesn’t speak about all-male priesthood.
 
dans0622 said:
Hello,

That’s good. I think it’s pertinent, in this context, that many of those who read Fr. Z’s blog (maybe even Fr. Z himself, given his personal history with Card. Ratzinger/Benedict…even though he did meet Card. Bergoglio a time or two…) are very attached to Pope Benedict and have concerns/worries/uncertainties about Pope Francis. For them, a baby step in appropriately appreciating Pope Francis may be to see the connection between the two popes, with Benedict as the “lens.”

Dan
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I certainly feel that if we’re interpreting Pope Benedict’s writings independently, we must look at them through his lens. However, if we’re interpreting the same writings being used by Pope Francis, then we need to look through Pope Francis’ lens to see what he sees and to make sure that we’re on the same page. At the end of the day, Joseph Ratzinger is no longer the pope. We have to look through the reigning pope’s lens if we want to know the direction in which he’s pointing us.

The connection is good, because it shows continuity. On the other hand, we must be very careful not to do harm to ourselves by out attachments. This can actually happen. In this case, the previous pope is still alive. It’s important that people not look to him to for their security, but look to the current pope for that. Like all things new, this will not happen over night.
 
vames said:
I understand your intention to alleviate Lucky7’s concerns. I also understand Fr Z’s intention to alleviate others’ concerns. But when Francis wanted to quote Benedict elsewhere , he openly attributed the quotes to Benedict, precisely to emphasize the intellectual continuity between the two of them. Here, instead, he doesn’t quote anybody, simply because the idea about women as unreliable witnesses has been discussed by various authors. So if one says that Pope Francis “or his scribbling elves” copied an idea from page XX of a book (without citing the author), this can’t really be a complimentary remark about Pope Francis.

And one last thing about all these concerned, unsure, worried people: if they are rational and reasonable adults, they won’t really need to be so slowly, carefully reassured (“baby steps”, as @Dans says) that the new pope is orthodox because he quotes/paraphrases/copies Benedict’s books. Those who can think for themselves will perceive his orthodoxy anyway. Meanwhile, those who choose to remain concerned will ignore his homilies and audiences anyway and will continue to wonder why he doesn’t genuflect enough or why he doesn’t speak about all-male priesthood.
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It’s complimentary because the point of the article is to praise what Francis said. I’m sorry you got the idea that I, or anyone else, is saying Francis “copied” Benedict in a negative way. I don’t think that, and I don’t think anyone else does either, quite the opposite in fact.

I am able to “think for myself” and I have paid close attention to Francis’ homilies and audiences. I think they’ve been fantastic, and I started a thread (which has since been merged with another thread) expressly to praise his homilies. I still have some concerns, but as I get to know him, I’ve been happy to be able to take some positive “baby steps” in how I feel about him. Hopefully many more baby steps to come.
 
A homily is an oral presentation to which the transcript is ancillary. I don’t think we need to worry about the MLA style book here.
 
In the spirit of “getting to know Pope Francis”, I’m very exceited that Ignatius Press will be publishing some books of his in the near future. They will be out in April in English, and sound very interesting. I can’t wait to read them.

christiannewswire.com/news/1321571764.html
 
McCall1981 said:
It’s complimentary because the point of the article is to praise what Francis said. I’m sorry you got the idea that I, or anyone else, is saying Francis “copied” Benedict in a negative way. I don’t think that, and I don’t think anyone else does either, quite the opposite in fact.

I am able to “think for myself” and I have paid close attention to Francis’ homilies and audiences. I think they’ve been fantastic, and I started a thread (which has since been merged with another thread) expressly to praise his homilies. I still have some concerns, but as I get to know him, I’ve been happy to be able to take some positive “baby steps” in how I feel about him. Hopefully many more baby steps to come.
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I loved what you wrote about Pope’s Audience (#231-232 and in another thread), so I’d be the last to suggest that you can’t think for yourself (my examples with comments about not genuflecting etc. are real - from the combox of Fr Z 🙂 ); you didn’t use “scribbling elves” either, so that wasn’t directed at you.

I had my concerns too, though with a different focus. I wasn’t afraid that he would do something against Summorum Pontificum (why would he? the TLM attracts people into the church!) or that he would promote gay marriage, women priests etc. This won’t happen. But I was very happy that Benedict XVI became pope, I loved his homilies and encyclicals, I cherished the privilege of listening to what he said, so when he left, I silently wondered if any other pope could be equally inspiring, so to say. And I admit that I didn’t like that sudden “WOW, LOOK HOW HUMBLE HE IS, AS OPPOSED TO…” praise. I thought the Trads had a point when they wondered if it’s that hard for Pope Francis to wear the stole, for example (but thanks to Brother JR for explaining the Jesuit mindset). So I waited, I tried to read as much as I could about his past and I learned to appreciate Pope Francis’ personal perspective and thinking. And you know what was the most difficult thing for me to assimilate, so far? His insistence on God’s forgiveness. 😊
 
vames said:
But I was very happy that Benedict XVI became pope, I loved his homilies and encyclicals, I cherished the privilege of listening to what he said, so when he left, I silently wondered if any other pope could be equally inspiring, so to say.QUOTE]

Interesting way to put it. I cherished Benedict too, and I think when he left I sort adopted a low expectations position during the conclave. For me, the “new Pope” didn’t have to be great or inspiring, I just wanted him to be orthodox and, well, boring in a sense.

Francis, of course, is anything but boring, so it was very much not what I was expecting. If he really can bring together social justice/poverty/humilty with orthodoxy like Francis of Assisi, then he could really be a great figure in Church history (apparently God’s expectations are higher than mine :o). That would be far above and beyond what I was expecting, and while I don’t quite feel there yet, so far he at least seems to be heading in that direction.
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vames said:
But I was very happy that Benedict XVI became pope, I loved his homilies and encyclicals, I cherished the privilege of listening to what he said, so when he left, I silently wondered if any other pope could be equally inspiring, so to say.
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Interesting way to put it. I cherished Benedict too, and I think when he left I sort adopted a low expectations position during the conclave. For me, the “new Pope” didn’t have to be great or inspiring, I just wanted him to be orthodox and, well, boring in a sense.

Francis, of course, is anything but boring, so it was very much not what I was expecting. If he really can bring together social justice/poverty/humilty with orthodoxy like Francis of Assisi, then he could really be a great figure in Church history (apparently God’s expectations are higher than mine :o That would be far above and beyond what I was expecting, and while I don’t quite feel there yet, so far he at least seems to be heading in that direction.
 
McCall1981 said:
If he really can bring together social justice/poverty/humilty with orthodoxy like Francis of Assisi, then he could really be a great figure in Church history (apparently God’s expectations are higher than mine :o That would be far above and beyond what I was expecting, and while I don’t quite feel there yet, so far he at least seems to be heading in that direction.
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Right.
During the conclave, I didn’t have a favorite candidate; the only thing I was pretty sure of was that the elected will be an orthodox pope, knowing that all the cardinals were created by the last two popes.
One Trad put it like this: “The Latin American opinion on Catholicism is conservative on social/moral doctrine, extremely liberal on liturgy, decentralized in authority, optimistic on the effect of secular government, and suspicious of individualism”. I don’t know if he is totally right. And the poster didn’t have in mind that Pope Francis is a Jesuit, for that matter. But I can say this: in a way, I was truly living under a rock - my personal experience (of attending only OF Masses) doesn’t include EMHCs (males or females), communion on the hand, long guitar songs sung by people sitting next to the altar, not even people adopting the orans position or holding hands during Our Father 🙂 So I don’t come from a “liberal” environment, liturgically or doctrinally. When I first saw the live streaming of some Brazilian Masses, last year, where all these elements were present, I was really shocked. It took me a while to notice and understand that those people are exactly as reverent as the people in my parish. They are good Catholics, not Protestants, heretics, “liberals”. The churches were/are full and the homilies were/are excellent, 100% orthodox - nothing edulcorated or “anything goes” type. This was a very precious lesson for me. If not for these Masses, perhaps I’d have been shocked too by the already famous “Mass for Children” of Cardinal Bergoglio, the one that was showed on all Trad sites. But I’m not. And I’m confident that Pope Francis will preserve the orthodoxy of our Chuch.
 
I’ve noticed that Pope Francis has mentioned the devil and evil several times already, and I heard from someone who’s read a lot of his homilies in Spanish that these are fairly common themes for him.

Does anyone think spiritual warfare and such could be one of the emphasis of his pontificate? Is this a common “Jesuit thing”?
 
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