Learn more about Pope Francis rather than criticize

[Oneofthewomen]

I’ve noticed that Pope Francis has mentioned the devil and evil several times already, and I heard from someone who’s read a lot of his homilies in Spanish that these are fairly common themes for him.

Does anyone think spiritual warfare and such could be one of the emphasis of his pontificate? Is this a common “Jesuit thing”?

I my experience, yes, it’s a “Jesuit thing”. Ignatius was a soldier for a long time before he founded the Jesuits (if I remember correctly he was 35 when ordained, making him the patron of “late vocations”), and some of the themes in the Spiritual Exercises to have militaristc overtones.

 

[JReducation]

“WOW, LOOK HOW HUMBLE HE IS, AS OPPOSED TO…” praise.

I understand your point exactly. Such comparisons are always wrong. They never get it right. Each person is an individual. Pope Francis is a pastoral man. He has spent most of his life among the people in the pew. He also comes from a religious order that has a very strict standard on poverty. When you combine those elements you get a priest who is very much one of the people.

Pope Benedict came from the classroom. He spent very few years in pastoral work and most of it as a bishop. He had very little exposure to the man in the pew. However, he had a great deal of exposure to the great minds and masters of Catholicism. His attitude and approach to life is very similar to someone like Aquinas, Bonaventure, or Bellarmine, men who were very gifted and very reserved at the same time. They used their gifts, but did not flaunt them. It’s another way of being humble.

I just wanted him to be orthodox and, well, boring in a sense.

Boring? That is funny. I would pray for orthodox. I never occurred to me to pray for boring.

Right.
This was a very precious lesson for me. If not for these Masses, perhaps I’d have been shocked too by the already famous “Mass for Children” of Cardinal Bergoglio, the one that was showed on all Trad sites. But I’m not. And I’m confident that Pope Francis will preserve the orthodoxy of our Chuch.

The problem with those pictures is that we don’t know when those were taken. I remember that we did children’s masses back in the mid 70s. There was a Eucharistic prayer for children and in the rubrics there were directions that allowed for different experiments during the Liturgy of the Word. Those of us who tried these were not out of compliance in any way shape or form.

As time passed, we realized that this was not helpful and children’s masses went back to being the same as the adults with the exception that the sermon targets the younger population. There is nothing wrong with trying something, realizing that it does not produce the fruit that you expected and dropping it. If you keep using something that does not work, then you’re either foolish or not well wrapped. Jorge Bergoglio does not come across as either foolish or nuts.

I’ve noticed that Pope Francis has mentioned the devil and evil several times already, and I heard from someone who’s read a lot of his homilies in Spanish that these are fairly common themes for him.

Does anyone think spiritual warfare and such could be one of the emphasis of his pontificate? Is this a common “Jesuit thing”?

This is very much a Jesuit thing, You 'll never hear it from a Franciscan. The Jesuit’s Spiritual Exercises are about the discernment of spirits, good and evil spirits.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

First of all, I have to say that you gave me a chuckle here.
Actually, I think that being a Jesuit is actually helpful. It’s a very disciplined spirituality focused on the relationship between the Beloved and me. It’s a spirituality that is very detached from the opinions of the world, which would be liberating for a pope. The ultimate question is “What does God want me to do?” Not, “What does custom, the office, the curia or the people want me to do?” God will never fail to respond to such a question, especially when the person asking it is the successor of Peter.
I was rather amazed by the article. Long before I read it, I had been thinking and posting that this man is being spoken about has if he had no background or context of his own. I’m not alone in that concern.

The extreme left, takes him out of context and sees him doing all kinds of things that are not compatible with Catholicism. A Jesuit is a very Catholic person. The extreme right takes him out of context and sees him deviating from papal tradition and begins to get nervous. A Jesuit is not a very traditional person. Ignatius never meant for his sons to be traditional religious. He deliberately created his order in a way that it allows for the members to be a challenge to the Church at every turn. Part of his vision was to serve the Church by rattling people out of their comfort zone. He begins by rattling his own sons through the Spiritual Exercises.

Br. Jay, awesome, as usual!

Regarding what I highlighted, As a “daughter of Ignatius”, this is what I love and what I fear about Ignatian spirituality.

The Ignatian way has changed my life, and it has been the hardest thing I have ever done. When people ask me about Ignatius, I often give them this prayer. I pray it every morning as part of my “morning prayer” and, to be honest, it is the single hardest prayer I have ever prayed, and it is also the one that has gifted me with the most grace!

Lord, teach me to be generous,
to serve you as you deserve,
to give and not to count the cost,
to fight and not to heed the wounds,
to toil and not to seek for rest,
to labor and not to look for any reward,
save that of knowing that I do your holy will.
St. Ignatius of Loyola

 

[McCall1981]

I my experience, yes, it’s a “Jesuit thing”. Ignatius was a soldier for a long time before he founded the Jesuits (if I remember correctly he was 35 when ordained, making him the patron of “late vocations”), and some of the themes in the Spiritual Exercises to have militaristc overtones.

This is very much a Jesuit thing, You 'll never hear it from a Franciscan. The Jesuit’s Spiritual Exercises are about the discernment of spirits, good and evil spirits.

Thanks to both of you. I’m hoping it becomes a theme for him. I think this is an area of Catholicism that unfortunately gets very neglected.

It was the first thing that really impressed me about Pope Francis.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

This is very much a Jesuit thing, ** You 'll never hear it from a Franciscan**. The Jesuit’s Spiritual Exercises are about the discernment of spirits, good and evil spirits.

Why not, fratello? (ie, can you expand on this a bit?)

 

[JReducation]

Why not, fratello? (ie, can you expand on this a bit?)

In the Jesuit model, you discern the good from the evil spirits. The follow the inspiration of the good spirits to fulfill the will of God.

In the Franciscan model you detach in order to obey the will of God as expressed through the superior. The discernment has been done for you either by Francis or his successors.

While the Jesuit fights the demons, the Franciscan just ignores them, because they are powerless as long as you obey.

 

[McCall1981]

In the Jesuit model, you discern the good from the evil spirits. The follow the inspiration of the good spirits to fulfill the will of God.

In the Franciscan model you detach in order to obey the will of God as expressed through the superior. The discernment has been done for you either by Francis or his successors.

While the Jesuit fights the demons, the Franciscan just ignores them, because they are powerless as long as you obey.

When you say good and evil “spirits” are you referring to angels and demons, or to good and bad inclinations (ie. your conscience)?

 

[choliks]

In the Jesuit model, you discern the good from the evil spirits. The follow the inspiration of the good spirits to fulfill the will of God.

In the Franciscan model you detach in order to obey the will of God as expressed through the superior. The discernment has been done for you either by Francis or his successors.

While the Jesuit fights the demons, the Franciscan just ignores them, because they are powerless as long as you obey.

This much is so because a lot of Jesuits don’t live in community like the Franciscans and Dominicans. Like a true soldier, when a Jesuit is sent on a mission, he will not always have the benefit of an ever-physically-present superior who will direct him. Instead he only has his marching orders, himself, his training and formation, and God. St. Francis Xavier is the perfect example of this. And because he doesn’t have the superior beside him, the Jesuit has to learn to discern by himself.

 

[choliks]

When you say good and evil “spirits” are you referring to angels and demons, or to good and bad inclinations (ie. your conscience)?

I’d say the latter as indication of the former. But i would say the Holy Spirit instead of angels.

 

[vames]

I understand your point exactly. Such comparisons are always wrong. They never get it right. Each person is an individual. Pope Francis is a pastoral man. He has spent most of his life among the people in the pew. He also comes from a religious order that has a very strict standard on poverty. When you combine those elements you get a priest who is very much one of the people.

Pope Benedict came from the classroom. He spent very few years in pastoral work and most of it as a bishop. He had very little exposure to the man in the pew. However, he had a great deal of exposure to the great minds and masters of Catholicism. His attitude and approach to life is very similar to someone like Aquinas, Bonaventure, or Bellarmine, men who were very gifted and very reserved at the same time. They used their gifts, but did not flaunt them. It’s another way of being humble.

Just like I have imagined Thanks a lot for all your posts! Stay here, please. All of us have a lot to learn from what you say.

Not at all related to Pope Francis or with this thread - just out of personal curiosity: is this church compatible with the Jesuit mindset or it was simply something linked with the luxuriant architectural tastes of that era?
whereverlifetakesus.travellerspoint.com/107/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_del_Virreinato,_Tepotzotl%C3%A1n#Church_of_San_Francisco_Javier

 

[vames]

I’ve noticed that Pope Francis has mentioned the devil and evil several times already, and I heard from someone who’s read a lot of his homilies in Spanish that these are fairly common themes for him.

Indeed. If you can (Google translate?), look at this homily from 2012 - the same opposition between an elitist, fearful, self-centered, inward looking, divisive Church and a Church who has the courage “to come out” in order to meet others, to bring them the light and joy of our faith. I guess this will be a constant theme of his pontificate.

esa es la Iglesia: o la Iglesia que acepta la Resurrección y sale, o la Iglesia temerosa, encapsulada, metida en sus cosas, defendida con los alambrados de las proscripciones, y que lleva a un camino histórico infecundo. O la Iglesia fecunda, que sale a predicar y por supuesto, termina en el martirio, o la Iglesia que se queda, equilibradamente… mirá che, esto es un fantasma, no nos fiemos de esta alegría porque nos puede pasar lo de antes, seamos prudentes, bendita palabra mal usada. La prudencia cristiana es la que te empuja hacia afuera, es la virtud del obrar, no la virtud de resistir. Entonces, ¿qué sucede? Una Iglesia que sale a predicar termina como terminaron los que salieron a predicar, en el martirio, o en el desgaste, o en la soledad o en las pruebas exteriores. Pensemos en ese trozo de la Madre Teresa de Calcuta que cuenta su noche interior, donde hasta creía que Dios no existía. Pero siguió, siguió, siguió, siguió. Esa es la venganza del demonio a esa Iglesia que es fiel a Jesús resucitado y cree en la Resurrección… y yo los envío a los confines de la tierra y salen. O sino la otra Iglesia, la que se quiere quedar en el Cenáculo, una Iglesia educada, muy “pipi cucú”, muy de salón, y ahí esa Iglesia encerrada se empulga, se empioja. Recién di el ejemplos de los apóstoles que van al martirio, la Madre Teresa, no voy a dar ningún ejemplo de Iglesia empiojada, porque basta que ustedes lean un poquito. Solamente vimos uno hace un ratito, al padre Grote que lo aprietan para que renuncie, y en esa Curia, vaya a saber los chismes que se cocinaron para lograr ese apriete. Esa es una Iglesia empiojada, la Iglesia de internas; entonces cuando ustedes vean una Iglesia de internas, disparen… no es la de Jesús Resucitado: es la que cree ver un fantasma o la que le tiene miedo a la alegría. Las internas de la Iglesia empiojan el alma. Y hay gente que apuesta fuerte a las internas, y prefiere una persecución entre hermanos a una persecución de afuera. Ambas las maneja el diablo, con diversos métodos, el mismo Pablo… y Pablo fue, en gran parte, víctima de las internas eclesiásticas de esa época.

fcco.com.ar/homil-a-del-cardenal-bergoglio-celebraci-n-120-aniversario/

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

In the Jesuit model, you discern the good from the evil spirits. The follow the inspiration of the good spirits to fulfill the will of God.

In the Franciscan model you detach in order to obey the will of God as expressed through the superior. The discernment has been done for you either by Francis or his successors.

While the Jesuit fights the demons, the Franciscan just ignores them, because they are powerless as long as you obey.

Beautiful! Thanks, fratello:thumbsup:

 

[JReducation]

When you say good and evil “spirits” are you referring to angels and demons, or to good and bad inclinations (ie. your conscience)?

Actually, the Holy Spirit speaks to us through the angels and saints. The devil speaks to us through his angels and minions. When you discern the spirits, you are discerning whether this is a spirit that is pointing you toward God or away from God. One does not get into whether or not this is the Holy Spirit, the Blessed Mother, another saint or an angel. Regardless of the means that God uses, the message guidance comes from God.

This much is so because a lot of Jesuits don’t live in community like the Franciscans and Dominicans. Like a true soldier, when a Jesuit is sent on a mission, he will not always have the benefit of an ever-physically-present superior who will direct him. Instead he only has his marching orders, himself, his training and formation, and God. St. Francis Xavier is the perfect example of this. And because he doesn’t have the superior beside him, the Jesuit has to learn to discern by himself.

Exactly. Remember what I’ve told you folks before, The Jesuits make the same vows as we do. They have the same place of honor in the Church that we (mendicants) have and all of the same rights. However, they have many more privileges and more freedom than other religious. Ignatius negotiated this with the Church. The don’t have to live in community. However, they are very much part of the Jesuit family, because they live by the same principles of the Spiritual Exercises. They don’t have a rule of life as do the mendicants. Therefore, they are not bound to a structure as we are. This liberates them to do whatever needs to be done and wherever it needs to be done. Orthodoxy means to obey when commanded to do so. It does not mean that they can’t question or challenge. The rest of us obey when the position of the Church is not a sin. The Jesuit has academic freedom to challenge. He is always looking for that which is better and closer to perfection. His l life is programmed to find whatever is for the greater glory of God.

If the Church says that A honors God. The Jesuit will say, “Hold on a minute. Let’s look at A more closely. Is there nothing better than this?” That’s a very rough example of a more complicated process. That’s basically how it goes. The danger here, as St. Ignatius knew, is that the person can fall in love with his own opinion and won’t yield. In every attempt to examine truth under the microscope looking for imperfections as it were, this is the danger of mistake. One may find not what is an imperfection, but what one perceives to be an imperfection. Fortunately, out of 18,000 current Jesuits, most are speculative, but I would not call the the majority insubordinate or belligerent. When the Church puts its foot down, the majority back down. They realize that their questioning is for the benefit of the Church, not for their personal satisfaction.

Just like I have imagined Thanks a lot for all your posts! Stay here, please. All of us have a lot to learn from what you say.

Not at all related to Pope Francis or with this thread - just out of personal curiosity: is this church compatible with the Jesuit mindset or it was simply something linked with the luxuriant architectural tastes of that era?
whereverlifetakesus.travellerspoint.com/107/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_del_Virreinato,_Tepotzotl%C3%A1n#Church_of_San_Francisco_Javier

They can certainly reflect Jesuit spirituality. One must remember that the Jesuits motto is “all for the greater glory of God.” They’re going to use whatever means they have a their disposal to proclaim the glory of God. The key here is to remember that certain means do not work with every sector of society. Even in some sectors, certain means become so routine that they no longer have the desired effect.

I remember the first time that I went to Paris and to Rome. The great basilicas and cathedrals drew me into deep meditation. However, the Parisians and Romans rarely set foot in them. They part of the environment, almost like wallpaper. You notice them when they’re new to you. After a while, you no longer pay attention.

This is the case with architecture that one may use to represent the glory of God. It’s not so glorious to the person who sees it every day.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am wholly unqualified to speak on these topics, but I want to follow this thread…so…

Subscribe.



I’m learning a lot just by lurking, which is the norm on all of Brother’s threads.

 

[graciew]

An example of discerment in Jesus may be when He stayed preaching at the temple when He was twelve. Mary and Joseph asked Him why He had done this to them.They read horizontally,they could not read vertically,in relation to what God´s plan was for Him and His mission.
What…for?
What´s the greater good?
If it helps…

 

[graciew]

Brother teaches with authority.He is helping us walk in the freedom for Christ and at crossroads.
Thanks,Brother

 

[TimothyH]

Interesting way to put it. I cherished Benedict too, and I think when he left I sort adopted a low expectations position during the conclave. For me, the “new Pope” didn’t have to be great or inspiring, I just wanted him to be orthodox and, well, boring in a sense.

Francis, of course, is anything but boring, so it was very much not what I was expecting. If he really can bring together social justice/poverty/humilty with orthodoxy like Francis of Assisi, then he could really be a great figure in Church history (apparently God’s expectations are higher than mine That would be far above and beyond what I was expecting, and while I don’t quite feel there yet, so far he at least seems to be heading in that direction.

Social Justic and orthodoxy are not two extremes that have to be brought together. The divide between personal morality and social justice is a false divide.

Injustice is when you deny someone something which is theirs by right. When a man is unfaithful to his wife, he denies her the fidelity which is hers by right. He also denies God faithfullness to the commandments which is God’s by right. Adultery is therefor both a sin and an injustice.

Social justice is concerned with the dignity of man. Dignity is something which is every person’s by right. We are all made in God’s image and God himself became man and died for every single one of us without exception. Every single person, including the toothless homeless guy who lives under the freeway overpass, has infinite value in God’s eyes. When that homless man suffers in pain because he can’t get pain medication or goes three days without food, it is a loss of dignity which is his by right as as someone who is made in God’s image and someone for whom God himself became man and died for.

Every sin is injustice and every injustice is sin. All sin is injustice and all injustice is sin. A world which is perfectly just would have no sin and a world without sin would be perfetly just. No one would sin and everyone would have the dignity which Christ won for them on the cross.

Pope Francis exhibits a breathtaking understanding of the link between justice and morality in so much of his actions. It is amazing to hear people speak about his orthodox positions on personal morality and to hear others ooze over his care for the poor, but to him they are one and the same issue.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I am wholly unqualified to speak on these topics, but I want to follow this thread…so…

Subscribe.



I’m learning a lot just by lurking, which is the norm on all of Brother’s threads.

I cut and paste some of his most intersting posts into a word doc so that I can easily go back and review.

I still think that CAF could have a best seller if it published some of his work.

-Tim-

 

[McCall1981]

Social Justic and orthodoxy are not two extremes that have to be brought together. The divide between personal morality and social justice is a false divide.

…

Pope Francis exhibits a breathtaking understanding of the link between justice and morality in so much of his actions. It is amazing to hear people speak about his orthodox positions on personal morality and to hear others ooze over his care for the poor, but to him they are one and the same issue-

First part: I agree its a false divide, but I think its one that unfortunately exists in the Church today to far too great an extent.

Second part: Well said, they should be one in the same, hopefully Francis can show this to all of us.

 

[jwinch2]

First part: I agree its a false divide, but I think its one that unfortunately exists in the Church today to far too great an extent.

Second part: Well said, they should be one in the same, hopefully Francis can show this to all of us.

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/1781/pope_issues_new_motu_proprio_on_charitable_activities.aspx#.UV5S6hesiSo

If bishops around the world actually make solid efforts towards the implementation of Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio De Caritate Ministranda, the disconnect between social justice and orthodoxy will drastically reduce, in Catholic circles anyway.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20121111_caritas_en.html