L
Lormar
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more.
- Status
T
TimothyH
Guest
I wish we thought more from our heart and that we would all forget reason just a little bit.
The man has a degree in chemical engineering, was in formation ten plus years with 500 year old religious order known for it’s intellectual rigor, and and has risen to the top of the Catholic Church with the blessing of his fellow cardinals and no less than the Third Person of the Holy Trinity himself. I think he knows more about balancing action with reason than almost everyone who has contributed and read this thread combined.
What you call “tugging at our heart strings” might just, once in a while, and putting gay marriage aside for one microsecond (please) be the Holy Spirit prompting us into action. That feelling might just be God saying, “Do something.”
The world is obsessed with reason and intellect and prudent action, instead of being obsessed with the radical action demanded by Christ. We can’t think our way into heaven, and at the end of the day we will be judged not on how many people we catechized but how we treated other human beings who are lower than us.
-Tim-
S
simple_soul
Guest
Give us the strength to bear being crucified with You oh Sweet Jesus, our God and Savior and help us to cry out; “,Abba! Father! Forgive us for we know not what we do!”
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
Actually, the problem is that the world has put reason down the drain. The amount of people with degrees in different fields are certainly higher. BUT, the people who want to use that critical thinking on other matters have started to decrease.
When it comes to love, meaning of life, who is Christ, or morality, people would rather listen to their “heart” and not give 2 cents about reason.
So I am afraid I strongly, and I mean very very strongly disagree with you on this. I would rather have people who are reasonable rather than people who are all emotional and thinking with their “heart”. It only takes social engineering to modify the “heart”. That is why it is so critical that one first verifies through reason what they then choose to mirror their heart after.
I also disagree that the world is obsessed with prudent action or reason. In the West especially, prudence has gone down the drain. If anything, we could use a little prudence and reason. It is the result of years of trying to discard anything prudential that has gotten us in to this mess in the first place.
Anyway, I don’t think what you say seems credible that what we need are people who just go with the heart strings. Best example of those who with the heart strings would be the Protestant and its not exactly the shining example one would like to hold up.
Ask yourself the following as well. You said
"What you call “tugging at our heart strings” might just, once in a while, and putting gay marriage aside for one microsecond (please) be the Holy Spirit prompting us into action. That feelling might just be God saying, “Do something.”
But how would you distinguish between the spirit and your own heart string if not for reason? How would one even know that they must make the distinction if not for reason?
So I feel that reason is a key part just as much as faith. There is a reason why Council of Trent condemned Fideism after all.
M
McCall1981
Guest
To the first part, while it is unfortunate that we have to spend so much time and energy on issues like gay “marriage”, no we cannot, even for a micro-second, put aside the teachings of Christ, because that is putting aside Christ Himself.
To the second part, I believe we will absolutely be judged on how we Catechized people, becasue that is the most important part of “how we treat others”. Christ wants us to spread the Truth of faith to everyone we can, so that all can share in His love and Mercy. This means treating all people with love, and part of that love means trying our best to give them Christ and the Church. That is the purpose of Catechesis.
L
Lormar
Guest
Isn’t it something how different we all are? I see the world the exact opposite - I see most people live on emotion and sentiment.
We can’t “feel” our way into Heaven either. Our faith isn’t a matter of feelings.
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
I know, right. And quiet honestly, I think I am justified in seen the world as been the opposite to what Tim claims it to be.
Take modesty for an example. Or any other issue. How many even hear it being mentioned in Church that avoid x for it is imprudent. What is common to hear is “X is a prude” and is usually stated in a derogatory context.
So unless Tim is speaking of the Eastern part of the Church, I do not see where he is drawing his conclusion from.
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
Agreed! I think the confusion arises when people see solving physical poverty as the primary and only form of evangelizing while neglecting spiritual poverty and evangelizing using words.
To be fair, perhaps their is also a lack of understanding required to evangelize. Perhaps deep down, many people do not know how to give reasons for their faith and articulate it. This fear has lead them to just abandon any idea of using words and hope for the best using actions. I would say the correct thing to do is either learn the faith and understand how to defend it using reason or encourage those who are doing it an support them in some way.
Instead of doing that, people have decided to justify their quota of Christ’s call in a sense by saying I am doing my part because I am helping the poor etc.
M
McCall1981
Guest
I recently thought of this dichotomy too.
On the one hand, we have modern/humanist/secular/atheistic society, which is ostensibly based on reason, science, logic etc and completely denigrates anything spiritual. On the other hand, we have modernist (or whatever you want to call it) religion that flies to the other extreme, where all the matters is what you “feel”, so ultimatly all that matters is YOU.
Its very strange
On the one hand, we have modern/humanist/secular/atheistic society, which is ostensibly based on reason, science, logic etc and completely denigrates anything spiritual. On the other hand, we have modernist (or whatever you want to call it) religion that flies to the other extreme, where all the matters is what you “feel”, so ultimatly all that matters is YOU.
Its very strange
L
Lormar
Guest
I recently thought of this dichotomy too.
On the one hand, we have modern/humanist/secular/atheistic society, which is ostensibly based on reason, science, logic etc and completely denigrates anything spiritual. On the other hand, we have modernist (or whatever you want to call it) religion that flies to the other extreme, where all the matters is what you “feel”, so ultimatly all that matters is YOU.
Its very strange
That is because the emphasis has been on “feelings” for the past few decades. Not whether something is true and right, but how you feel about it.
C
clem456
Guest
Faith in the heart is not emotion.I recently thought of this dichotomy too.
On the one hand, we have modern/humanist/secular/atheistic society, which is ostensibly based on reason, science, logic etc and completely denigrates anything spiritual. On the other hand, we have modernist (or whatever you want to call it) religion that flies to the other extreme, where all the matters is what you “feel”, so ultimatly all that matters is YOU.
Its very strange
M
McCall1981
Guest
I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you meanFaith in the heart is not emotion.
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
If it is not based on any reason to think of it as anything more… then… is it not just an emotion?Faith in the heart is not emotion.
As for faith, I think it is far to say that before we give faith to a message or a person, we must first verify that message or person through reason. Otherwise, we will be in a lot of trouble and get duped in to various erroneous beliefs and religions, yes?
C
clem456
Guest
A complex topic that I really did not bring up.
I was merely posting the Pope’s words and appreciating certain things that struck me today. I dunno how we got in this area.
This is not anything I am qualified to disect, but John of the Cross has a lengthy discussion of faith and intellect in Ascent of Mt Carmel.
One small excerpt:
ewtn.com/library/SOURCES/ASCENT-J.TXT
M
McCall1981
Guest
I’m not very qualified to dissect this either, but my understanding of this quote leads me to think we are talking about two different things here. As I understand it, St. John of the Cross, when he speaks here of “intellect” is referring to that area if the human mind that we use to comprehend and understand. Since, in comtemplation saints contemplate God, Who by definition cannot be “comprehended” or “understood”, the intellect is over shadowed and they are left in a purely faith based/spiritual reality.
When I refered to “reason” earlier, I was referring to human reason, as in “our ability to think things through and use logic rather than emotions” here on earth. As I understand it these are two different things.
M
McCall1981
Guest
Here’s some more good news regarding Pope Francis. Stories and anecdotes have indicated that many Catholics are returning to Church and in particular to confession due to the “Francis Effect”. From Sandro Magister, we now have numbers to back it up:
magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/
"From anecdotal evidence we wanted to move to a scientific survey, as the first and preliminary. We distributed a questionnaire through the technique known as cascade that uses social networks Facebook and Twitter, from groups that are particularly frequented by Catholics.
"Given that, like all techniques, this has advantages and limitations with regard to sampling, and that the effects related to the early months of a new pontificate should always be checked after months to ascertain whether transient or permanent, **on a sample of two hundred priests and religious, 53 percent said they had experienced an increase in their own community of people who drew closer to the church or to confession, adding that these people specifically mention the appeals of Pope Francis as a reason for their rapprochement with religious practice.
"In 43.8 per cent of these cases the increase of the faithful is defined as consisting of more than 25 percent.** The most noticeable religious (66.7 percent) than do priests (50 percent). And for 64.2 percent of the sample the increase is particularly confessions.
"We conducted the same survey also on a sample of more than five hundred lay Catholics. Perceive the effect Francesco less of priests and religious, who are directly involved in the confessional. But a significant 41.8 per cent of the lay has noticed effect, which seems to be visible, so to speak, to the naked eye.
"The data are, within the limits of the survey, very significant. Effect detected for more than half of a sample is a phenomenon not only exists but is of great importance. If we were to translate the data in terms of numbers and on a national scale, with reference to half of the parishes and communities, we should speak of hundreds of thousands of people who drew closer to the Church accept invitations of Pope Francis."
magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/
"From anecdotal evidence we wanted to move to a scientific survey, as the first and preliminary. We distributed a questionnaire through the technique known as cascade that uses social networks Facebook and Twitter, from groups that are particularly frequented by Catholics.
"Given that, like all techniques, this has advantages and limitations with regard to sampling, and that the effects related to the early months of a new pontificate should always be checked after months to ascertain whether transient or permanent, **on a sample of two hundred priests and religious, 53 percent said they had experienced an increase in their own community of people who drew closer to the church or to confession, adding that these people specifically mention the appeals of Pope Francis as a reason for their rapprochement with religious practice.
"In 43.8 per cent of these cases the increase of the faithful is defined as consisting of more than 25 percent.** The most noticeable religious (66.7 percent) than do priests (50 percent). And for 64.2 percent of the sample the increase is particularly confessions.
"We conducted the same survey also on a sample of more than five hundred lay Catholics. Perceive the effect Francesco less of priests and religious, who are directly involved in the confessional. But a significant 41.8 per cent of the lay has noticed effect, which seems to be visible, so to speak, to the naked eye.
"The data are, within the limits of the survey, very significant. Effect detected for more than half of a sample is a phenomenon not only exists but is of great importance. If we were to translate the data in terms of numbers and on a national scale, with reference to half of the parishes and communities, we should speak of hundreds of thousands of people who drew closer to the Church accept invitations of Pope Francis."
S
simple_soul
Guest
I’ve got a question, why do we have devotions to the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Sacred Heart of Jesus if having faith based in the heart is such a bad thing?
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
I understand. But the thing is, the church has doctrinally made it clear that the position of Fideism is in error. In other words, the Church does say that even before one assents to something as even being the Word of God, one must first make sure through reason that it is indeed from God. So this is not to say we must be rationalist where we require every teaching of faith to make sense. Rather, we must make sure that what we are putting our faith in is indeed from God, Christ etc.
I think that makes sense too. In this sense we can say that all other religions, philosophies, ideologies that exist apart from the Catholic faith, though they may contain some truths in them, are not reasonable to have faith in. So what this tells us is that throughout history, there have been a lot of unreasonable people who have just been assenting to anything they can imagine, whether it be idolatry or philosophical positions stating unverifiable truths, such as Atheism.
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
I think it is very safe to say that actions of the Pope or any other actions that we can perform that tugs at the heart strings can get people who are close or already were Catholic to come to the Church or at least take another look at their faith. But if we leave them unsupported and just bombard with more of the same, before long, they might just see no reason again to be specifically Catholic. Everyone does charity work. Whether it be Dalai Lama or an atheist. Just because these people are good people to us, it does not mean we must listen to them blindly. That is what people remember as soon as they hear something hard to follow from the lips of any person they consider good, including even our Pope Francis. Wait till Pope Francis states something against Gay marriage or contraception publicly and you will see him treated like dirt. Most people right now are riding a wave of hope that they have that the Pope is about to change some doctrine to better match what they already believe.Here’s some more good news regarding Pope Francis. Stories and anecdotes have indicated that many Catholics are returning to Church and in particular to confession due to the “Francis Effect”. From Sandro Magister, we now have numbers to back it up:
magister.blogautore.espresso.repubblica.it/
"From anecdotal evidence we wanted to move to a scientific survey, as the first and preliminary. We distributed a questionnaire through the technique known as cascade that uses social networks Facebook and Twitter, from groups that are particularly frequented by Catholics.
"Given that, like all techniques, this has advantages and limitations with regard to sampling, and that the effects related to the early months of a new pontificate should always be checked after months to ascertain whether transient or permanent, **on a sample of two hundred priests and religious, 53 percent said they had experienced an increase in their own community of people who drew closer to the church or to confession, adding that these people specifically mention the appeals of Pope Francis as a reason for their rapprochement with religious practice.
"In 43.8 per cent of these cases the increase of the faithful is defined as consisting of more than 25 percent.** The most noticeable religious (66.7 percent) than do priests (50 percent). And for 64.2 percent of the sample the increase is particularly confessions.
"We conducted the same survey also on a sample of more than five hundred lay Catholics. Perceive the effect Francesco less of priests and religious, who are directly involved in the confessional. But a significant 41.8 per cent of the lay has noticed effect, which seems to be visible, so to speak, to the naked eye.
"The data are, within the limits of the survey, very significant. Effect detected for more than half of a sample is a phenomenon not only exists but is of great importance. If we were to translate the data in terms of numbers and on a national scale, with reference to half of the parishes and communities, we should speak of hundreds of thousands of people who drew closer to the Church accept invitations of Pope Francis."
So what needs to happen is that the people who come in should be given reasons to stay and understand that the Church is the true Church. That it is the true religion and the Church of Christ. Otherwise, we will just have people who follow the Pope rather than the Church. That is not what we want. We want the Pope to bring people in to the Church. Otherwise the moment we get a new Pope sometime after, people might just leave for the sole reason that they don’t like the new Pope.
E
Eufrosnia
Guest
These are things we assent to after we discover who to believe through reason. So once we discover the Church, we accept all its teachings, not because it makes sense but because of its authority. So we believe by faith without seeing or verifying the teachings themselves. So devotions, claims like “Bible is the Word of God”, sacraments are all accepted by faith because we have discovered the Church as the authority through reason.
What people usually forget is the initial step of verifying that authority. So they believe blindly in anything that appeals to them. That might be Buddhism, Hinduism or even Atheism. All of these are just positions we assent to when there is no reason to even think the people who tell us of these things have authority to do so.
- Status