Learn more about Pope Francis rather than criticize

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choliks said:
I’ve read somewhere that one of the main reasons people are coming back is Pope Francis’ message of God’s mercy in his past homilies.

On the other hand, it’s not that bad if people come back just because they warmed up to Pope Francis. At least, they’re back in. Let’s pray the Holy Spirit will work in their lives, so that they won’t remain spectators and be immersed in the immensity of Christ’s love and His Church. Let’s also pray for those of us who are in the Church to welcome those who have returned, just like the father in the parable of the Prodigal Son.
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I think it is rather ironic that we talk so much about getting people to come back to church and back to confession, etc., and then when they do, we respond negatively, afraid it’s for the wrong reason or it won’t last or it’s too much the product of emotion, rather than thanking God and praying for them, and maybe, just maybe, believing it might actually be the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in God to work it out.

Sometimes we need to just trust and believe, and give thanks rather than overanalyze or intellectualize things. Jesus said we must come to Him as little children. How many of us are truly able (or willing) to do that? No, we have to exhibit some measure of control, even if it is in our own minds. I am not singling anyone out, and I confess to being guilty of this. But the people who really get things done have this childlike faith in God and they don’t spend a lot of time overanalyzing or questioning things. Instead they pray and trust and go ahead and do it. Prime examples are Mother Angelica of EWTN and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. Yes, we should use our brains and our reasoning and our logic, but we shouldn’t let them get in the way of God’s work. And that can easily happen.

I think a lot of the the appeal of Pope Francis to people is this childlike type of faith he has.
 
CB_Catholic said:
I think it is rather ironic that we talk so much about getting people to come back to church and back to confession, etc., and then when they do, we respond negatively, afraid it’s for the wrong reason or it won’t last or it’s too much the product of emotion, rather than thanking God and praying for them, and maybe, just maybe, believing it might actually be the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in God to work it out.

Sometimes we need to just trust and believe, and give thanks rather than overanalyze or intellectualize things. Jesus said we must come to Him as little children. How many of us are truly able (or willing) to do that? No, we have to exhibit some measure of control, even if it is in our own minds. I am not singling anyone out, and I confess to being guilty of this. But the people who really get things done have this childlike faith in God and they don’t spend a lot of time overanalyzing or questioning things. Instead they pray and trust and go ahead and do it. Prime examples are Mother Angelica of EWTN and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. Yes, we should use our brains and our reasoning and our logic, but we shouldn’t let them get in the way of God’s work. And that can easily happen.

I think a lot of the the appeal of Pope Francis to people is this childlike type of faith he has.
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The example of Mother Angelica is great. Raymond Arroyo’s biography of her is a tremendous read. She is an example of a person who listened in the heart and followed her inspiration in complete dependence on God, even as the inspiration led her into what would be considered foolish decisions in my life. Seems to me this is not an irrational feelings-based life, but rather a life and choices in loving obedience to God’s prompting.
 
CB_Catholic said:
I think it is rather ironic that we talk so much about getting people to come back to church and back to confession, etc., and** then when they do, we respond negatively, afraid it’s for the wrong reason or it won’t last or it’s too much the product of emotion**, rather than thanking God and praying for them, and maybe, just maybe, believing it might actually be the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in God to work it out.

Sometimes we need to just trust and believe, and give thanks rather than overanalyze or intellectualize things. Jesus said we must come to Him as little children. How many of us are truly able (or willing) to do that? No, we have to exhibit some measure of control, even if it is in our own minds. I am not singling anyone out, and I confess to being guilty of this. But the people who really get things done have this childlike faith in God and they don’t spend a lot of time overanalyzing or questioning things. Instead they pray and trust and go ahead and do it. Prime examples are Mother Angelica of EWTN and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. Yes, we should use our brains and our reasoning and our logic, but we shouldn’t let them get in the way of God’s work. And that can easily happen.

I think a lot of the the appeal of Pope Francis to people is this childlike type of faith he has.
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This is an important post.

-Tim-
 
CB_Catholic said:
I think it is rather ironic that we talk so much about getting people to come back to church and back to confession, etc., and then when they do, we respond negatively, afraid it’s for the wrong reason or it won’t last or it’s too much the product of emotion, rather than thanking God and praying for them, and maybe, just maybe, believing it might actually be the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in God to work it out.

Sometimes we need to just trust and believe, and give thanks rather than overanalyze or intellectualize things. Jesus said we must come to Him as little children. How many of us are truly able (or willing) to do that? No, we have to exhibit some measure of control, even if it is in our own minds. I am not singling anyone out, and I confess to being guilty of this. But the people who really get things done have this childlike faith in God and they don’t spend a lot of time overanalyzing or questioning things. Instead they pray and trust and go ahead and do it. Prime examples are Mother Angelica of EWTN and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. Yes, we should use our brains and our reasoning and our logic, but we shouldn’t let them get in the way of God’s work. And that can easily happen.

I think a lot of the the appeal of Pope Francis to people is this childlike type of faith he has.
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I’ve always thought of true conversion as a completely organic process that incorporates both emotion and more academic/cerebral aspects. Certainly some people prefer one over the other, but it is bad to neglect either one.
 
CB_Catholic said:
I think it is rather ironic that we talk so much about getting people to come back to church and back to confession, etc., and then when they do, we respond negatively, afraid it’s for the wrong reason or it won’t last or it’s too much the product of emotion, rather than thanking God and praying for them, and maybe, just maybe, believing it might actually be the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in God to work it out.

Sometimes we need to just trust and believe, and give thanks rather than overanalyze or intellectualize things. Jesus said we must come to Him as little children. How many of us are truly able (or willing) to do that? No, we have to exhibit some measure of control, even if it is in our own minds. I am not singling anyone out, and I confess to being guilty of this. But the people who really get things done have this childlike faith in God and they don’t spend a lot of time overanalyzing or questioning things. Instead they pray and trust and go ahead and do it. Prime examples are Mother Angelica of EWTN and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. Yes, we should use our brains and our reasoning and our logic, but we shouldn’t let them get in the way of God’s work. And that can easily happen.

I think a lot of the the appeal of Pope Francis to people is this childlike type of faith he has.
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👍

This is so full of win!
 
From our Holy Father today, my emphasis added.
Put frankly, the Pope continued,*** “the Holy Spirit upsets us because it moves us, it makes us walk, it pushes the Church forward.***” He said that we wish “to calm down the Holy Spirit, we want to tame it and this is wrong.” Pope Francis said “that’s because the Holy Spirit is the strength of God, it’s what gives us the strength to go forward” ***but many find this upsetting and prefer the comfort of the familiar. ***
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I am sure if we are all honest with ourselves, this “hits the nail on the head”! 👍
I know it does for me!!
 
Oneofthewomen said:
From our Holy Father today, my emphasis added.

I am sure if we are all honest with ourselves, this “hits the nail on the head”! 👍
I know it does for me!!
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👎 I guess I am a fool and always will be one.

“We offer this mass for him [Benedict XVI], so that the Lord be with him, confort him, and give him great consolation. … The Council was a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit. Think of Pope John: he looked like a good parish priest, and he was obedient to the Holy Spirit, and he did that. But, after 50 years, have we done everything that the Holy Spirit told us in the Council? In the continuity of the growth of the Church that the Council was? No. We celebrate this anniversary, we make a monument, but do not bother. We do not want to change. And there is more: there are calls [voci, also ‘voices’] wanting to move back. This is called being stubborn, this is called wanting to tame the Holy Spirit, this is called becoming fools and slow of heart.”
 
CB_Catholic said:
I think it is rather ironic that we talk so much about getting people to come back to church and back to confession, etc., and then when they do, we respond negatively, afraid it’s for the wrong reason or it won’t last or it’s too much the product of emotion, rather than thanking God and praying for them, and maybe, just maybe, believing it might actually be the work of the Holy Spirit and trusting in God to work it out.

Sometimes we need to just trust and believe, and give thanks rather than overanalyze or intellectualize things. Jesus said we must come to Him as little children. How many of us are truly able (or willing) to do that? No, we have to exhibit some measure of control, even if it is in our own minds. I am not singling anyone out, and I confess to being guilty of this. But the people who really get things done have this childlike faith in God and they don’t spend a lot of time overanalyzing or questioning things. Instead they pray and trust and go ahead and do it. Prime examples are Mother Angelica of EWTN and Mother Theresa of Calcutta. Yes, we should use our brains and our reasoning and our logic, but we shouldn’t let them get in the way of God’s work. And that can easily happen.

I think a lot of the the appeal of Pope Francis to people is this childlike type of faith he has.
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To the bolded, I don’t think anyone here would disagree with this; this is completely true. I think what some of us are saying is that the opposite is also true in addition to this, not instead of this.

The examples you give of people with childlike faith (Pope Francis, Mother Theresa, Mother Angelica) all also have/had strong faith in Church teaching and doctrine. They aren’t running around making up whatever beliefs they want, they are grounded in the Truth. And that is the key distinction, their faith is indeed childlike and from the heart, but it is also holy precisely *because it is grounded in the Truth. * What I, and I think others, are cautious of are the people that will abuse “faith from the heart” to make it an excuse to believe whatever you want and essetinally make yourself you own little god.

True, holy, faith from the heart says “experience Christ in your heart, and follow your heart to Christ and His Church”. The false version of faith from the heart says “experience whatever you want in your heart, and follow your heart wherever you want because you are now like God”.

We’re not condemning the “heart” side of Catholicism, we’re condemning the abuse of it, which unfortunately happens a lot (just like abuse of the “head” side of Catholicism happens as well).
 
Oneofthewomen said:
From our Holy Father today, my emphasis added.

I am sure if we are all honest with ourselves, this “hits the nail on the head”! 👍
I know it does for me!!
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The same Pope that said this also re-affirmed the need for the LCWR to reform for doctrinal reasons. When he says this he is grounded in the Truth, so it is holy. When some others say things that are superficially similar, they are not grounded in the Truth.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
From our Holy Father today, my emphasis added.

I am sure if we are all honest with ourselves, this “hits the nail on the head”! 👍
I know it does for me!!
Click to expand...
Thinking back to the sermon last Sunday:
There is nothing safe about that campfire on the seashore. It is a beautiful scene, the risen Christ with the disciples having breakfast in the early morning light. But Peter had gone back to fishing after denying Christ, and settled back into a familiar routine.
Then comes his second chance.
“Simon son of John”, (that’s like saying “Joe Smith!” like your father would say when he really wants your attention,) “do you love me”. Challenging words especially in light of Peter’s previous failure. He is challenged to abandon the life he is familiar with to serve others. To the point of giving his life. That’s not the kind of campfire talk I’m used to hearing. Thankfully Peter says yes.
 
McCall1981 said:
To the bolded, I don’t think anyone here would disagree with this; this is completely true. I think what some of us are saying is that the opposite is also true in addition to this, not instead of this.

The examples you give of people with childlike faith (Pope Francis, Mother Theresa, Mother Angelica) all also have/had strong faith in Church teaching and doctrine. They aren’t running around making up whatever beliefs they want, they are grounded in the Truth. And that is the key distinction, their faith is indeed childlike and from the heart, but it is also holy precisely *because it is grounded in the Truth. * What I, and I think others, are cautious of are the people that will abuse “faith from the heart” to make it an excuse to believe whatever you want and essetinally make yourself you own little god.

.
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Who says that they are? And why is that “but” clause always brought up in the face of the Pope’s actions and statements? If the Pope is not making his beliefs up on the fly, why is this an issue in this discussion of the beautiful and inspirational homilies of the Pope?
 
McCall1981 said:
To the bolded, I don’t think anyone here would disagree with this; this is completely true. I think what some of us are saying is that the opposite is also true in addition to this, not instead of this.

The examples you give of people with childlike faith (Pope Francis, Mother Theresa, Mother Angelica) all also have/had strong faith in Church teaching and doctrine. They aren’t running around making up whatever beliefs they want, they are grounded in the Truth. And that is the key distinction, their faith is indeed childlike and from the heart, but it is also holy precisely *because it is grounded in the Truth. * What I, and I think others, are cautious of are the people that will abuse “faith from the heart” to make it an excuse to believe whatever you want and essetinally make yourself you own little god.

True, holy, faith from the heart says “experience Christ in your heart, and follow your heart to Christ and His Church”. The false version of faith from the heart says “experience whatever you want in your heart, and follow your heart wherever you want because you are now like God”.

We’re not condemning the “heart” side of Catholicism, we’re condemning the abuse of it, which unfortunately happens a lot (just like abuse of the “head” side of Catholicism happens as well).
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No one said that Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica were not grounded in good doctrine.

We are saying that it is unreasonable to go to Calcutta and expect to spend your life washing, feeding, singing to and praying with people who are being eaten by worms and about to die, all while begging for food and money to be able to do it. Starting the worlds biggest Christian broadcasting network with $250 and a tape recorder from Radio Shack would have earned Mother Angelica a failing grade in every exacutive MBA program in the world.

Reason tells us that these things are unreasonable.

Walking from France to Rome without shoes is unreasonable. Taking the place of another man who was sentanced to be starved to death is unreasonable. Following a man who said he was God and that you had to eat his flesh and drink his blood is not reasonable. Believing that this man rose from the dead is not reasonable. Reason tells us that these things are foolish.

No one is saying that they wern’t grounded in good doctrine. We are saying that reason only gets you so far. You can’t think your way to heaven. Jesus requires a radical commitment to things which the world thinks are completely insane. As Catholics, we are required to act in radical ways, and that doesn’t mean just the Eucharist on Sunday.

The saints show an amazing ability to trust God in spite of what reason tells them is absure, to step past prudent judgement into faith, to do what every fiber of their body tells them is insane behavior.

-Tim-
 
👍 Awesome post Tim!!
TimothyH said:
No one said that Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica were not grounded in good doctrine.

We are saying that it is unreasonable to go to Calcutta and expect to spend your life washing, feeding, singing to and praying with people who are being eaten by worms and about to die, all while begging for food and money to be able to do it. Starting the worlds biggest Christian broadcasting network with $250 and a tape recorder from Radio Shack would have earned Mother Angelica a failing grade in every exacutive MBA program in the world.

Reason tells us that these things are unreasonable.

Walking from France to Rome without shoes is unreasonable. Taking the place of another man who was sentanced to be starved to death is unreasonable. Following a man who said he was God and that you had to eat his flesh and drink his blood is not reasonable. Believing that this man rose from the dead is not reasonable. Reason tells us that these things are foolish.

No one is saying that they wern’t grounded in good doctrine. We are saying that reason only gets you so far. You can’t think your way to heaven. Jesus requires a radical commitment to things which the world thinks are completely insane. As Catholics, we are required to act in radical ways, and that doesn’t mean just the Eucharist on Sunday.

The saints show an amazing ability to trust God in spite of what reason tells them is absure, to step past prudent judgement into faith, to do what every fiber of their body tells them is insane behavior.

-Tim-
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TimothyH said:
No one said that Mother Theresa and Mother Angelica were not grounded in good doctrine.

We are saying that it is unreasonable to go to Calcutta and expect to spend your life washing, feeding, singing to and praying with people who are being eaten by worms and about to die, all while begging for food and money to be able to do it. Starting the worlds biggest Christian broadcasting network with $250 and a tape recorder from Radio Shack would have earned Mother Angelica a failing grade in every exacutive MBA program in the world.

Reason tells us that these things are unreasonable.

Walking from France to Rome without shoes is unreasonable. Taking the place of another man who was sentanced to be starved to death is unreasonable. Following a man who said he was God and that you had to eat his flesh and drink his blood is not reasonable. Believing that this man rose from the dead is not reasonable. Reason tells us that these things are foolish.

No one is saying that they wern’t grounded in good doctrine. We are saying that reason only gets you so far. You can’t think your way to heaven. Jesus requires a radical commitment to things which the world thinks are completely insane. As Catholics, we are required to act in radical ways, and that doesn’t mean just the Eucharist on Sunday.

The saints show an amazing ability to trust God in spite of what reason tells them is absure, to step past prudent judgement into faith, to do what every fiber of their body tells them is insane behavior.

-Tim-
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Well to be fair, reason can get you to faith. Then you assent by faith.

The saints persevered when the articles they believed by faith did not make sense. They did not persevere when having faith in religion did not make sense. Also, they did not just believe in things because they felt like they were true. It was only because the Church taught it. Or else, they were equally quick to discount and shun anything.

Reason points to the Church. No where is there a teaching that we decide what is right and wrong, truth from falsehood based on how we feel or depth of our feeling. That is something people seem to postulate incorrectly. This is also why the Church firmly insists that no matter how true you may feel something is (with respect to truths on faith and morals), if it contradicts the Church, then it is false.
 
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