Learn more about Pope Francis rather than criticize

[simple_soul]

Pope Francis warned that some people, even in the Church, are “social climbers” that try to promote themselves, instead of seeking to glorify Christ.

“These social climbers exist even in the Christian communities, no? Those people who are looking out for themselves … and consciously or unconsciously pretend to enter but are thieves and robbers,” he said at an April 22 Mass for Vatican press office and Vatican Radio employees.

“Why? Why steal the glory from Jesus? They want glory for themselves and this is what (Jesus) said to the Pharisees: ‘You seek for each other’s approval,’” the Pope responded.

The result of this approach is that the faith becomes “something of a ‘commercial’ religion,” he reflected.

“I give glory to you and you give glory to me. But these people did not enter through the true gate. The (true) gate is Jesus and those who do not enter by this gate are mistaken.”

Read more: ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7499#ixzz2RHWHq6QA.

This part really spoke to me. It makes me question why I do what I do. Am I trying to get others to see how much I know or how much more knowledgeable and holy I am or to show others how much more of the true teachings of the church I understand compaired to them or am I doing it all for the Glory of God.

Lots to examine my conscience with. He even gives me the way to know by comparing my actions to the beatitudes.

 

[simple_soul]

Makes me question am I sharing what I understand because I love Jesus and want to share His Love, compassion, and mercy with others that He has given me? Do I want to share with others what He has shared with me. I want them to have what I have. Him. The source of my peace, joy and tranquilly because He is my Joy, Peace and Tranquility and I just want others to have what I have. I do not want to horde Him to myself but share Him and everything He has given me because it is His and not mine.
Is this my motivation or am I seeking to make others think how good and holy I am.

Yep…Lots to examine my conscience with. Will have to definitely read the beatitudes
again.

 

[JReducation]

Are you talking about me or is this a non sequitur? I don’t think disagreeing with your interpretation of papal writings amounts to not trusting popes, or being disrespectful of popes. Emminent apologists disagree with you; I’m only taking my views from them.

Now, I’m talking about the Gestalt.

Don’t forget, an eminent apologist is not necessarily a theologian. Apologists defend the faith. That’s their role and it’s a valuable role.

A theologian explains the faith using reason. He’s really an educator, not a defender of the faith. That’s not to say that he would not do so if necessary. It simply means that this is not what he does day to day.

I’m not an apologist and don’t want to be. I prefer to be a theologian. I’m coming at this from a completely different angle than an apologist would. My opinion is going to be colored by theology and philosophy.

I certainly learned a lot from the pope’s restraint in dealing with all sorts of people and his charity. I wish I could be as half as holy as him on my best days.

Join the club.

But we can all begin by imitating his style of speaking and dealing with others. I’ve learned a great deal about dealing with non Catholics by watching the popes from Pius XII to Francis. They’re all very scholarly, very polite, very gentle, very inviting and at the same time accessible to non Catholics. They never say a single negative word about non Catholics. They may throttle Catholics, but they are most gentle with those outside the Church.

 

[Lormar]

Interesting homily from Pope Francis today. Here is the EWTN article, I don’t have the full text:

ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7499

I particularly liked this part:


“Sometimes it’s closed: we are sad, we feel desolation, we have problems with knocking, with knocking at that gate. Do not go looking for other gates that seem easier, more comfortable, more at hand. Always the same one: Jesus. Jesus never disappoints, Jesus does not deceive, Jesus is not a thief, not a robber. He gave his life for me. Each of us must say this: ‘And you who gave your life for me, please, open, that I may enter.’”

Leave it to my friend McCall! Via Pope Francis, of course! (I realize, McCall, you were only the messenger.)

Christians can know which way or gate is Jesus’ by looking for the marks of the Beatitudes, he said.

:clapping:

 

[Rich_C]

A theologian explains the faith using reason. He’s really an educator, not a defender of the faith. That’s not to say that he would not do so if necessary. It simply means that this is not what he does day to day.

I’m not an apologist and don’t want to be. I prefer to be a theologian. I’m coming at this from a completely different angle than an apologist would. My opinion is going to be colored by theology and philosophy.

I’m not a theologian and don’t want to be. I did spend a lot of my college years acting as an amateur apologist. It’s the way I’m used to talking about the Faith.

I think this is why it feels like we’re always talking past each other on CAF.

I lose interest (and comprehension) when the topic gets too high into the clouds, too “meta” if you will, and it seems like you lose interest when it gets too down to the nitty gritty and requires references.

Well, it’s always a good time, Br. JR.

God bless.

 

[McCall1981]

But we can all begin by imitating his style of speaking and dealing with others. I’ve learned a great deal about dealing with non Catholics by watching the popes from Pius XII to Francis. They’re all very scholarly, very polite, very gentle, very inviting and at the same time accessible to non Catholics. They never say a single negative word about non Catholics. **They may throttle Catholics, but they are most gentle with those outside the Church./**QUOTE]

I’ve never thought of this, but now that you mention it, its true.

I’ve been pretty surprised recently on how the tone of some of Francis’ homilies have been rather (I don’t know how to say it, not “confrontational” because that has negative connotations, but “harsh” or “hard hitting” or something like that). Like you said, “throttling” those Catholics who use the Church for personal promotion, or are luke warm, or the falsify the Gospel with ideology, etc.

He’s not dancing around those issues. Like today’s heavy hitter “…it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”. It’s not a style I was expecting from him. I think it makes an interesting contrast with his outward demeanor.

 

[JReducation]

I’m not a theologian and don’t want to be. I did spend a lot of my college years acting as an amateur apologist. It’s the way I’m used to talking about the Faith.

I think this is why it feels like we’re always talking past each other on CAF.

I lose interest (and comprehension) when the topic gets too high into the clouds, too “meta” if you will, and it seems like you lose interest when it gets too down to the nitty gritty and requires references.

Well, it’s always a good time, Br. JR.

God bless.

LOL, good times are true enough.

When my former superior, who was the one that knew about Catholic Answers suggested that I do this as a ministry, I was excited. He suggest that since I couldn’t go back to the classroom, because of health, I could do online teaching via forums and blogs. It gave me a sense of belonging again. There is nothing worse than having done something for a long time and having a catastrophic illness take it away. We all expect to be transferred at some point or another. But one continues to do the same work in a different place. We all plan on retirement, but that’s something for which you prepare yourself. This was not planned.

The idea of doing theology online was an exciting you and still is. It is also as you say. When the conversation gets down to nuts and bolts, I get restless, because it’s oversimplified. You want to know what really boils my oil? When people start to quote encyclicals and Aquinas, without any reference to the historical context, the linguistics involved, the intent of the writer, or any references to how popes and councils that followed understand these things. Worse is when they quote from someone like Aquinas something that the Church has never included in her theology. Aquinas said many things about many subjects. But the Church has not embraced everything he said. There are other things that the Dominicans themselves say are colored by what was happening in the mendicant school at Paris at that time. Unless the person makes reference to the other scholastics, many quotes from Aquinas communicate something different from what he meant.

I start to wiggle in my seat when I see these quotes without being anchored in the bigger picture. I know that’s not how theologians think and I know that’s not how popes think. With the exception of Pope Paul VI, the popes of the last 200 years were all theologians. They look at what their predecessors wrote through the critical eye of theology, never taking anything at face value. Pope Paul VI was a lawyer. He has to be understood using the rhetoric of the lawyer, because that’s how he wrote and spoke. It’s probably why he was one of the most misunderstood popes of the 20th century.

The Q & A model drives me to eat.

JReducation;10658656:

But we can all begin by imitating his style of speaking and dealing with others. I’ve learned a great deal about dealing with non Catholics by watching the popes from Pius XII to Francis. They’re all very scholarly, very polite, very gentle, very inviting and at the same time accessible to non Catholics. They never say a single negative word about non Catholics. They may throttle Catholics, but they are most gentle with those outside the Church./

QUOTE]

I’ve never thought of this, but now that you mention it, its true.

I’ve been pretty surprised recently on how the tone of some of Francis’ homilies have been rather (I don’t know how to say it, not “confrontational” because that has negative connotations, but “harsh” or “hard hitting” or something like that). Like you said, “throttling” those Catholics who use the Church for personal promotion, or are luke warm, or the falsify the Gospel with ideology, etc.

He’s not dancing around those issues. Like today’s heavy hitter “…it is not possible to find Jesus outside the Church”. It’s not a style I was expecting from him. I think it makes an interesting contrast with his outward demeanor.

I think that Pope Francis rattles Catholics. But if you observe him with non-Catholics, he is patient, polite, jovial, accommodating and above all very welcoming. That’s how I like to treat non-Catholics and how I want to speak about them. It’s a very evangelical way of drawing their attention to us.

In a course that we took on the life and work of Paul, not on his letters (that’s another course) we learned that Paul’s letters were very hard for the sake of the converts, but that his manner of dealing with the gentiles and Roman pagans of his time was very different from the way that he wrote to the early Church. The early Fathers give us a little glimpse of this great man when they mention him in passing. It’s always as a compassionate, gentle and charming man when among the Gentiles. It was his charm that caught his attention, then his teaching helped them understand the faith. He did not carry a big stick as some believe. The Greeks and Romans spent a great deal of time in the head. Paul conquers the common Gentile by going to the heart. He was straightforward as is our current pope, but also very humble as is our current pope. He gave all the appearance of being non threatening. to the common man, not like the Greek and Roman leadership. That’s how you draw the non-Catholic. You speak to the heart of the common man.

 

[Lucky7]

I think that Pope Francis rattles Catholics. But if you observe him with non-Catholics, he is patient, polite, jovial, accommodating and above all very welcoming. That’s how I like to treat non-Catholics and how I want to speak about them. It’s a very evangelical way of drawing their attention to us.

I’m thinking today’s homily will rattle some non-Catholics:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301801.htm

Parts of it:

*Christian identity is not a bureaucratic status, it is “belonging to the church … the mother church, because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the church,” Pope Francis said. “It is the mother church who gives us Jesus, gives us identity.”

…

Pope Francis asked the cardinals to join him in praying that they, too, would have the “fervor to move forward – as brothers, all of us – forward, forward, carrying the name of Jesus in the heart of holy mother church, which is – as St. Ignatius said – hierarchical and catholic.”*

Personally, I’m loving this. Obviously he isn’t being rude, but he is also being pretty darn clear about Christian identity and where Jesus is found: the Catholic Church.

 

[McCall1981]

Personally, I’m loving this. Obviously he isn’t being rude, but he is also being pretty darn clear about Christian identity and where Jesus is found: the Catholic Church.

Thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen this part:

"The growth of the church, the pope said, “begins with persecution – a great sadness – and ends with joy. This is how the church moves forward – as I saint, I don’t recall which right now, said – between the persecution of the world and the consolation of the Lord. The life of the church is this way.”

“If we want to take the path of the mundane, negotiating with the world,” the pope said, “we will never have the consolation of the Lord. If we seek only consolation, it will be superficial.”

The life of the church is a path that always alternates between “persecution and consolation, between the Cross and the Resurrection,” he said."

This is good stuff

 

[Eufrosnia]

I’m thinking today’s homily will rattle some non-Catholics:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301801.htm

Parts of it:

*Christian identity is not a bureaucratic status, it is “belonging to the church … the mother church, because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the church,” Pope Francis said. “It is the mother church who gives us Jesus, gives us identity.”

…

Pope Francis asked the cardinals to join him in praying that they, too, would have the “fervor to move forward – as brothers, all of us – forward, forward, carrying the name of Jesus in the heart of holy mother church, which is – as St. Ignatius said – hierarchical and catholic.”*

Personally, I’m loving this. Obviously he isn’t being rude, but he is also being pretty darn clear about Christian identity and where Jesus is found: the Catholic Church.

Exactly. I am not sure why people are trying to make the Pope look like their own projections when he is clearly being a Pope. I very much feel that what makes people mad and get driven to dislike the Pope is the news and media incorrectly portraying the Pope on one hand and the leaders in the Church incorrectly portraying the Pope on another to match their own views. The faithful laity gets scandalized as a result to thinking that the Pope is a bad person.

No one seems to want to read the full homilies and give the full message. My parish priest has already reduced Pope Francis to the peace prayer. That is all he says about the Pope all the time. They just drop the hard stuff and like to pump up the lovey-dovey messages to further their own idea of the Pope it seems.

 

[McCall1981]

Exactly. I am not sure why people are trying to make the Pope look like their own projections when he is clearly being a Pope. I very much feel that what makes people mad and get driven to dislike the Pope is the news and media incorrectly portraying the Pope on one hand and the leaders in the Church incorrectly portraying the Pope on another to match their own views. The faithful laity gets scandalized as a result to thinking that the Pope is a bad person.

No one seems to want to read the full homilies and give the full message. My parish priest has already reduced Pope Francis to the peace prayer. That is all he says about the Pope all the time. They just drop the hard stuff and like to pump up the lovey-dovey messages to further their own idea of the Pope it seems.

Agreed, but I would rather have a Pope who is saying these good things and being ignored, than one who isnt saying them at all

 

[JReducation]

I’m thinking today’s homily will rattle some non-Catholics:

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301801.htm

Parts of it:

Christian identity is not a bureaucratic status, it is “belonging to the church … the mother church, because it is not possible to find Jesus outside the church,” Pope Francis said. “It is the mother church who gives us Jesus, gives us identity.”

This is how ecumenism works. He says something to Catholics within earshot of non-Catholics. He’s not going after the non-Catholic directly. It’s a very clear, yet diplomatic style of preaching.

…

Pope Francis asked the cardinals to join him in praying that they, too, would have the “fervor to move forward – as brothers, all of us – forward, forward, carrying the name of Jesus in the heart of holy mother church, which is – as St. Ignatius said – hierarchical and catholic.”

This is very Jesuit. Here is where I have been harping for weeks. Many people have been objecting to his simplicity, because allegedly it is not appropriate for a pope. I have been harping that this is a Jesuit pope. Here we have a very Jesuit statement and a very Jesuit approach to ecclesiology that needs to be implemented in driven home. Only a Jesuit can do it justice, because only Jesuits fully understand what Ignatius had in mind when he said this. Terms such as “hierarchical and Catholic” do not translate the same Jesuit theology as they do in mainstream theology. Men like Ignatius, Francis, Robert, Alphonse Ligouri and Louie de Montford had a vocabulary all their own, which is very difficult to understand unless one is a student of theirs.

I won’t even dare to try to unpack Ignatian ecclesiology and suggest that others do not try to do so either. Let the Jesuits unpack it for us or other scholars who are experts in Ignatian ecclesiology, which are very few in today’s world, probably under 200. The cardinals themselves will have to go home and read Ignatius and Robert Bellarmine.

Personally, I’m loving this. Obviously he isn’t being rude, but he is also being pretty darn clear about Christian identity and where Jesus is found: the Catholic Church.

He’s being very specific. He’s not being pushy with those who are not Catholic. But he is pushing Catholics to become Christocentric in a very Jesuit way. By bringing up Ignatius’ statement, it forces the hearer to go back to Ignatius and his sons to look at the entire context of that statement. You can’t just take a quote from Ignatius and run with it, unless you know more about the whole. He’s throwing down a challenge to those who are listening, which happen to be Catholics.

This is what I mean by gentle with non-Catholics and rattling Catholics.

Thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen this part:

“If we want to take the path of the mundane, negotiating with the world,” the pope said, “we will never have the consolation of the Lord. If we seek only consolation, it will be superficial.”

This is pure Ignatian ascetical theology. This I know about. Ascetical theology is my area. Ignatius’ times were not very different from our own. There was much going on. Much of it was good, but embedded in the good, there was dissent, heresy, materialism, concupiscence of the flesh, laziness, indifference in matters of morality (especially when money was involved), and governments that had run amuck. There was a spirituality in Spain that was similar to our New Age stuff. There were people who thrived on penances, hardships and other exaggerated forms of asceticism. In reality, they were not looking to do penance, but to feel good about their penance (consolation). Kind of a “look at me, I’m so Catholic,” or “I thank God that I’m not like the rest of men.” Ignatius and Teresa of Avila were very strong opponents to such nonsense spirituality. Theirs was a very practical approach to the spiritual life. “Stick to the Gospel and follow the Church’s lead.”

The life of the church is a path that always alternates between “persecution and consolation, between the Cross and the Resurrection,” he said."

Here he’s pulling from St. Paul of the Cross. St. Paul stressed the importance of not avoiding the Passion in one’s journey to perfection.

 

[McCall1981]

Here Pope Francis talks about the final judgement of Christ:
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7515

I think it’s a very good thing to talk about because like he points out, "the final judgment is sometimes not so clear and strong in the hearts of Christians,”

First, I think some of us tend to ignore it becasue its a hard teaching and we want to ignore anything to do with “judgement”, so it’s something we need to hear.

Second, I think many people are flat out afraid of this topic (I know thinking about this kind of thing used to frighten me). I’m glad he noted that we should not be afraid of it.

 

[JReducation]

Here Pope Francis talks about the final judgement of Christ:
ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=7515

I think it’s a very good thing to talk about because like he points out, "the final judgment is sometimes not so clear and strong in the hearts of Christians,”

First, I think some of us tend to ignore it becasue its a hard teaching and we want to ignore anything to do with “judgement”, so it’s something we need to hear.

Second, I think many people are flat out afraid of this topic (I know thinking about this kind of thing used to frighten me). I’m glad he noted that we should not be afraid of it.

LOL Great minds. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10662953#post10662953

 

[McCall1981]

LOL Great minds. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10662953#post10662953

Aw, you beat me by 9 minutes

 

[JReducation]

Aw, you beat me by 9 minutes

It’s not my fault that you’re such a good teacher.

I’m starting to think like you.

 

[McCall1981]

I got this from PJM here on this forum, some nice little tidbits on Pope Francis and his grandmother Rosa

"Grandmother Rosa - the Pope’s Theological Grandmother

Pope Francis keeps a note from his grandmother ‘Nonna Rosa’ tucked inside his breviary. It reads “May my grandchildren, to whom I have given the best of my heart, have a long and happy life. But if there are days of pain or illness, or if the loss of a loved one fills them with despair, may they remember that a whisper of a prayer and a look to Mary at the feet of the cross, can be like a drop of balsam on even the deepest and most painful wounds.”

Pope Francis recalled that Grandmother Rosa told him on his ordination day:

‘Don’t ever forget that you’re about to become a priest, and the most important thing for a priest is to celebrate mass.’
She told Pope Francis to celebrate Mass, every single Mass, as if it was his last."

 

[Indyann]

I got this from PJM here on this forum, some nice little tidbits on Pope Francis and his grandmother Rosa

"Grandmother Rosa - the Pope’s Theological Grandmother

Pope Francis keeps a note from his grandmother ‘Nonna Rosa’ tucked inside his breviary. It reads “May my grandchildren, to whom I have given the best of my heart, have a long and happy life. But if there are days of pain or illness, or if the loss of a loved one fills them with despair, may they remember that a whisper of a prayer and a look to Mary at the feet of the cross, can be like a drop of balsam on even the deepest and most painful wounds.”

Pope Francis recalled that Grandmother Rosa told him on his ordination day:

‘Don’t ever forget that you’re about to become a priest, and the most important thing for a priest is to celebrate mass.’
She told Pope Francis to celebrate Mass, every single Mass, as if it was his last."

I wish there was a “Like” button on here. That is beautiful.

 

[tradcathconvert]

I wish there was a “Like” button on here. That is beautiful.

I second the call for a like button. That is beautiful/

 

[JReducation]

Did anyone see today’s homily at Santa Martha? It’s beautiful. VIS has pieces of hit. The one piece that struck me the most is a point about which we have spoken on different threads. It tells a great deal about him.
**
The Bishop of Rome also referenced the First Letter of Peter, which defines the Christian style of preaching; “humility, service, charity, fraternal love. But—‘Lord, we have to conquer the world!’ That word, ‘conquer’, doesn’t belong. We have to preach to the world. The Christian cannot be like the soldiers who, when they win the battle, make a clean sweep of everything. The Christian announces the Gospel by his witness more than by his words, and this goes two ways…: a great spirit is not frightened by great things, of going forward toward unending horizons, and the humility of being aware of the little things.”**

It’s a point well made. There is a tendency in some not to do anything to evangelize and then there is the tendency in others to want to go out there like a soldier in a state of war.