Learned a few things about Mass

[MParedon]

I can already tell you that I’ll probably be booed outta here but as wonderful Catholic’s, I hope you guys give me a chance .

At first I was horridly outraged at all the liturgical abuses and stuff happening when I found out about it. I started to perfer, at least intellectually, the Tridentine Mass. But the more and more people sneer at the Norvus Order and wax poetic about the Tridentine…I started getting uneasy. I’m a firm orthodox Catholic and I don’t want to veer too far to the left or right, meaning if the Norvus Order is approved, I will not sneer at it.

Anyway, I started reading a book Why do Catholics Do That? by Johnson. It has Impramatur and Nihil Obstat. I learned that pews were intruduced into practice by the Protestants. And that the Tridentine Mass is about 300 years old. Huh? I am with the Catholic Church mainly because if History. I perfer to worship as the earliest Christians were able to (when they weren’t in hiding)
I also learned that much of the pageantry used in the Mass was adapted from how to respect a king using Roman customs. That’s great…I respect the Eucharist as my King. But I get to thinking…are Roman customs in respect to a king better than any other cultures customs?? Doesn’t that smack of ethnocentricity? And for people that hate pews without kneelers, why are we so willing to Protestantize our Mass with pews? For people that are upset by people crossing aisle’s to do the Sign of Peace…the Pax was instituded by people that didn’t like the equality of all these poor people, tradesmen, etc… being able to walk up and hug dignitaries because everyone was standing next to each other, there was no seperation. For the people who adore the organ over everything else, I ask…how old is the organ? Are the people that worshipped before the organ as bad as people who don’t worship with it now?

All that being said I wish to tell all the Tridentine/Norvus Ordo combatants. To PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE PEOPLE!

I like Gregorian Chant, I like Latin, I perfer kneeling. I think that Tridentine Mass should be freely offered. But I will NOT sneer, or criticise Norvus Order out of hand. I don’t have to blow out someone’s candle to make mine brighter. I will try to make sure that the Norvus Order doesn’t ignore the rubrics, for the simple principle of submition to the Holy See.

 

[guse]

That was a great post. Christ instituted the Church, not every rubric of the Mass. The Church is living, not dead. The Church adapts, not its teachings, but it is does adapt to different times and cultures. The Church today is responsible for guiding 21st century Christians, not first century ones.

 

[T.A.Stobie_SFO]

Also look at the wide variety of legimate forms of the mass. Watch EWTN masses from all over the world and see a wide variety of wonderful masses.

The church and its infinite riches are wonderful.

 

[Marie]

MParedon:

I can already tell you that I’ll probably be booed outta here but as wonderful Catholic’s, I hope you guys give me a chance .

All that being said I wish to tell all the Tridentine/Norvus Ordo combatants. To PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE PEOPLE!

I like Gregorian Chant, I like Latin, I perfer kneeling. I think that Tridentine Mass should be freely offered. But I will NOT sneer, or criticise Norvus Order out of hand. I don’t have to blow out someone’s candle to make mine brighter. I will try to make sure that the Norvus Order doesn’t ignore the rubrics, for the simple principle of submition to the Holy See.

I could not have said it better myself! Thanks!

 

[dream_wanderer]

MParedon:

.

ll that being said I wish to tell all the Tridentine/Norvus Ordo combatants. To PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE PEOPLE!

.

I quite agree with you.

dream wanderer

 

[csr]

The Novus Ordo is a substantial break with tradition; the new rite of mass is an inorganic development that has led to many problems, such as a broad problem with irreverence (1), which is an extension of the reality that the banal liturgy does less to “bestir the human spirit” (2). The Novus Ordo as a whole has been the vehicle by which to introduce into the Church a variety of heresies and problems, almost an excuse factory for rejecting Church teaching and practice. The objective should not be to abolish the Novus Ordo rite of mass but freely to permit the Tridentine Mass, which, in its organic development is far older than 300 years (you bought a real canard on that one).

 

[Marie]

csr:

The Novus Ordo is a substantial break with tradition; the new rite of mass is an inorganic development that has led to many problems, such as a broad problem with irreverence

Well, it did not take long for the sour pickle police squad to show up, now did it. And they were not even invited. How droll of us to forget to use the insect replellant.

Now we get to hear the SSPX’rs who are not in union nor Loyal to the Church and her teachings, rip and snort and try and ruin everyones perfectly lovely day once again.

It looks like it’s time for the gripping and moaning and hand wringing crowd to begin their off key singing again.Ear plugs anyone?

 

[MParedon]

You can not put the whole responcibility of irreverance of Mass on the Norvus Order. The responciblity lies in lack of obediance from clergy and lack of education in laity. And SINCE the Norvus Ordo is from the Holy See I will accept it. There are no ‘if’ ‘ands’ or ‘buts.’ Norvus Ordo in obediance to the rubrics is acceptable.

I didn’t buy any ducks. The canard is that people will read

csr:

The objective should not be to abolish the Novus Ordo rite of mass but freely to permit the Tridentine Mass, which, **in its organic development ** is far older than 300 years (you bought a real canard on that one).

(bolding mine) and think that the Tridentine Mass as they know it is older than 300 years, which it is not. As for it’s organic development, that would logically mean that it could DEVELOPE in different ways, could it not? As I mentioned earlier, some of it’s developments came from how the Romans treated royalty. Is that somehow better than how Asia treated royalty? I could go on with different examples, but I hope people get the point. Norvus Order is a development, granted people don’t like it…but some people do, there is no getting past that.

 

[JNB]

A few things to go over on this post. First, there is the development of liturgy. While it is true that the Tridentine missal was adopated as the standard missal of the Latin rite, what Pope St Pius V basically did was use the rite that was in use at time in Rome itself as the standard missal. By the early 1400s, the rite in Rome itself had developed into what became known as the Tridentine rite.

That said, the different liturgical rites used in the west, such as the Sarum and York rites in England, the Gallacian and Parisian rites in France, and the Ambrosian rite used in Milan Italy just to name a few were actually fairly close to each other and the Tridentine missal. They all were celbrated in Latin, as far as I know they only used the Roman Canon(Eucharistic Prayer I), they all faced the altar, in the same direction as the parishoners, leading the parishoners in prayers all facing God togethe, they all had sanctuaries that were walled off from the nave of the parish with either partially with a communion rail or fully with a rood iron screen, and again as far as I know, the parishoners knealt for communion. The Tridentine mass itself was not a brand new development or a radical break.

That said, I am getting fustrated with many traditionalists going overboard. Yes, I cant stand the abuses, or even things that are allowed such as altar girls, EMHCs, communion via the chalice, or modern parish design, but that said, I also have seen the Novus Ordo celebrated in just about as reverent a manner as the Tridentine mass is, with no altar girls, no EMHCs, Latin with all communicants kneeling down at the altar rail. Also, I read articles from 1963 of some parishes allready taking down altar rails, turning the altar around, and standing for communion, and this was with the Tridentine missal. I agree people need to get perspective.

While I prefer the TLM, I find nothing wrong with a reverently celebrated Novus Ordo.

 

[Marie]

JNB:

While I prefer the TLM, I find nothing wrong with a reverently celebrated Novus Ordo.

I second that. I love the Ordo Missae. It is the Mass.

 

[deogratias]

I third it - just wish it was not so difficult to find either

Marie - I got a notice that you had replied to a message in the thread “The Indult” and it gave this link
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=8211&goto=newpost

But when I click on that link I get some message about invalid thread and I can’t find the thread either. I have been gone all afternoon - any idea what happened here?

 

[Marie]

deogratias:

I third it - just wish it was not so difficult to find either

Marie - I got a notice that you had replied to a message in the thread “The Indult” and it gave this link
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=8211&goto=newpost

But when I click on that link I get some message about invalid thread and I can’t find the thread either. I have been gone all afternoon - any idea what happened here?

At a guess, I think the Troll’s took over. Last time I looked it was heating up and I unsubscribed. I had a feeling the kiss of death was on the way but have not kept up with it for sometime myself.

 

[deogratias]

Marie:

At a guess, I think the Troll’s took over. Last time I looked it was heating up and I unsubscribed. I had a feeling the kiss of death was on the way but have not kept up with it for sometime myself.

Wow all that must have happened since you and I wrote on it this morning then. Leave a forum for a few hours on a Sunday afternoon and see what happens LOL. The last message I posted was in response to one of yours about what happened to VII and so on and then I got a notice when I got home today that you had replied to that and that was the link that didn’t work. I thought you and I were havin a very benign but intelligent exchange -

But I guess, as you said it can get ugly in a hurry.

 

[Marie]

deogratias:

Wow all that must have happened since you and I wrote on it this morning then. Leave a forum for a few hours on a Sunday afternoon and see what happens LOL. The last message I posted was in response to one of yours about what happened to VII and so on and then I got a notice when I got home today that you had replied to that and that was the link that didn’t work. I thought you and I were havin a very benign but intelligent exchange -

But I guess, as you said it can get ugly in a hurry.

You got that right. As I recall, I peeked in and one of the SSPX’rs or like mined Troll’s, I believe was pontificating on, and on and on about how Vatican II was the worst yada yada! etc…I decided I did not care to enter into it and that retreat was the better part of valor and I hit unsubscribe before my eye’s glazed over.

I guess one of the Mod’s must have looked in too and hit delete. I really don’t know but it is a pretty safe bet.

 

[fcb2001]

i like both masses, i dont complain about either mass, but i like to attend the tridentine mass once in a while

 

[fcb2001]

my attitude is if the pope wants the mass done a certain way, iam with the pope.

guse:

That was a great post. Christ instituted the Church, not every rubric of the Mass. The Church is living, not dead. The Church adapts, not its teachings, but it is does adapt to different times and cultures. The Church today is responsible for guiding 21st century Christians, not first century ones.

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

Some great insights. If only more would go to either mass. The largest Christian religion group in the U.S. is Catholic. The second largest is Catholics who don’t attend mass. Tens of thousands less than this group is the largest Protestant denomination. Does it matter which church you stay home from?

God bless,
Deacon Tony