Least persuasive argument used by Catholics?

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spedteacherita said:
I think that is a great idea…post least and most effective.
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There are lots of other threads where people promote what they think the most effective. But for this thread, my main reasons for soliciting least effective?
  • curiosity
  • this thread might be fun - sometimes arguments tend to get a little on the grim side; whenever I feel I or my position is under attack I tend to go into attack mode myself; and thus stop learning; I try to use a little humor when I can. I welcome more of it.
  • I know in my mind what the strongest arguments are to convert to Catholicism. I have beaten some arguments into the ground more often than Dracula. But I am interested in what non-Catholics think and feel about them. For me, winning arguments in my own mind isn’t all that helpful.
  • The biggest problem with weak arguments is that they have the opposite effect of what the arguer wants. A weak argument suggests that strong arguments don’t exist. An attack argument is especially self-defeating, because the loyal reader is tempted to hold onto more tightly to whatever or whoever is being attacked.
  • The definition of insanity is repeating the same failed strategy over and over, but expecting this time a different outcome. So we need to find out what are the failed strategies, and why they fail.
 
aidanbradypop said:
The 30k argument is invaild completely and actually hurts the person doing the argument. Within the 30k + are Roman Catholics, Irish Catholics, Melkite Catholics…etc.
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The 30k protestant divisions and the different forms of Catholicism are not a valid comparison.

The different forms of Catholicism are only different rites and forms of liturgy. The different rites are provided for due to differences in the culture in which the rite developed. In terms of Doctrine they are identical, and as such are a cohesive unit.

Different forms of Protestantism can have wildly different interpretations of scripture, and differ on core aspects of belief. They teach competing doctrine all while claiming the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Either the Holy Spirit is teaching different truths (which would go against the law of non-contradiction and the logical nature of God), or the Protestant Church are not divinely inspired as they like to claim.
 
ephesians2 said:
I did not read the other posts so I don’t know if this was already stated, but the first topic that quickly popped into my head was that the people of Roman Catholic Church are unified in their beliefs and that the “33,000” **Protestant **Denominations are not, due to sola scriptura.

What most do not realize is that this argument is invalid and why well-known Roman Catholic apologists still quote this number often makes me question their trustworthiness and/or scholarship. First off, the number (33,000) is often quoted blindly meaning that the one quoting the number is simply repeating what they heard from someone else without actually researching where the number came from. If they researched the number and where it was found they would see that the list of “denominations” is comprised of Protestant denominations as well as Orthodox Christians AND Roman Catholics (Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other apostate religions are included in the list too). Second, as far as “unity” within the Roman Catholic Church goes, I presume one can search this website and see that it isn’t always the case. I’m not saying Roman Catholics **shouldn’t **be unified. I’m saying I don’t see evidence of it being true.
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Well in this thread, and many others the 30,000 denominations and counting is being attacked pretty bad, but I think people miss the point. Perhaps it’s not the number but the principal. Protestants are greatly divided right? Is there an “acceptable” number of protestant divisions?

And just because catholics debate doctrine does not mean we are divided…the church allows debate, at the end of the day there is one faith professed by the Catholic Church and you either agree and live faithfully or you step outside her bounds.

Food for thought.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
The 30k protestant divisions and the different forms of Catholicism are not a valid comparison.

The different forms of Catholicism are only different rites and forms of liturgy. The different rites are provided for due to differences in the culture in which the rite developed. In terms of Doctrine they are identical, and as such are a cohesive unit.

Different forms of Protestantism can have wildly different interpretations of scripture, and differ on core aspects of belief. They teach competing doctrine all while claiming the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Either the Holy Spirit is teaching different truths (which would go against the law of non-contradiction and the logical nature of God), or the Protestant Church are not divinely inspired as they like to claim.
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In my neck of the woods, every time a group in an independent church get’s POed at whatever the preacher said, they start a breakaway ‘church’ down the road. Does that ‘church’ count as it’s own ‘denomination’? I personally don’t think so, but I’m betting that’s where the 30K number comes from. But even then, I don’t think there are that many ‘house’ churches across the country.
 
BartholomewB said:
That’s a very important point. Make sure you know who you’re debating with. Tell an Anglican that he believes in sola scriptura and you’ll just get laughed at.
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I agree with this. If someone wants me to understand or consider their faith, then tell me about their faith, don’t start telling me what you think MY faith is and why that is wrong.

If your faith can’t stand on it’s own to feet and isn’t worth considering on it’s own merit, trying to convince me it’s less invalid than what you think my faith is, isn’t going to get you anywhere.

If venerating saints is a good holy practice then tell me why it is. Don’t try to convince me it’s the same as when I put up a photo of my grandmother. It’s not, and it doesn’t matter that it’s not. It can be a good holy thing all on it’s own whether or not I put up a photo of my grandmother or put flowers on her grave.

Making invalid comparisons or silly remarks about my faith or lack thereof weakens the case, not strengthen it.
 
commenter said:
There are lots of other threads where people promote what they think the most effective. But for this thread, my main reasons for soliciting least effective?
  • curiosity
  • this thread might be fun - sometimes arguments tend to get a little on the grim side; whenever I feel I or my position is under attack I tend to go into attack mode myself; and thus stop learning; I try to use a little humor when I can. I welcome more of it.
  • I know in my mind what the strongest arguments are to convert to Catholicism. I have beaten some arguments into the ground more often than Dracula. But I am interested in what non-Catholics think and feel about them. For me, winning arguments in my own mind isn’t all that helpful.
  • The biggest problem with weak arguments is that they have the opposite effect of what the arguer wants. A weak argument suggests that strong arguments don’t exist. An attack argument is especially self-defeating, because the loyal reader is tempted to hold onto more tightly to whatever or whoever is being attacked.
  • The definition of insanity is repeating the same failed strategy over and over, but expecting this time a different outcome. So we need to find out what are the failed strategies, and why they fail.
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👍 You’re right…God bless!

Rita
 
Jon_S said:
Well in this thread, and many others the 30,000 denominations and counting is being attacked pretty bad, but I think people miss the point. Perhaps it’s not the number but the principal. Protestants are greatly divided right? Is there an “acceptable” number of protestant divisions?

And just because catholics debate doctrine does not mean we are divided…the church allows debate, at the end of the day there is one faith professed by the Catholic Church and you either agree and live faithfully or you step outside her bounds.

Food for thought.
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Well said. It makes sense that it isn’t so much the number, but the principle regarding how many Protestant denominations there are. You’re right too about the Church allowing debate, but we are still united by our one faith professed by the Catholic Church.
 
JustaServant said:
In my neck of the woods, every time a group in an independent church get’s POed at whatever the preacher said, they start a breakaway ‘church’ down the road. Does that ‘church’ count as it’s own ‘denomination’? I personally don’t think so, but I’m betting that’s where the 30K number comes from. But even then, I don’t think there are that many ‘house’ churches across the country.
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Sorry, but I have to disagree. Even those tiny house Church have to be included because they claim to have the proper interpretation, no matter how minuscule the difference from their predecessor may be. However tiny they may be, they represent an additional division in the already splintered pane of glass that is Protestantism.
 
I’ll throw my 2 cents in as well on the 33 million denominations argument.

I find this one rather frustrating, as a Catholic, because I believe that the “how divided Protestants are” argument, in general, has some validity and persuasive power … but the most common form of it, the number of denominations argument, is just a really really bad form of it. Catholics of all people should realize this, since the same argument could be used against Christianity as a whole.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
The 30k protestant divisions and the different forms of Catholicism are not a valid comparison.

The different forms of Catholicism are only different rites and forms of liturgy. The different rites are provided for due to differences in the culture in which the rite developed. In terms of Doctrine they are identical, and as such are a cohesive unit.

Different forms of Protestantism can have wildly different interpretations of scripture, and differ on core aspects of belief. They teach competing doctrine all while claiming the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Either the Holy Spirit is teaching different truths (which would go against the law of non-contradiction and the logical nature of God), or the Protestant Church are not divinely inspired as they like to claim.
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You did not read my post correctly friend. I said that within the 30k+ number are the many different Catholic Churches that are in communion with Rome. It also counts each member of the Anglican Communion as a separate denomination. It also counts Russian Orthodox as a denomination.

So when Catholics use that as a bad thing towards Protestantism, they are also including the RCC. According to the 30k theory, there are 200 something Catholic denominations.

Understand now better?
 
commenter said:
What are the least persuasive arguments you have heard?
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Specifically regarding Orthodoxy:
  • That since there are so many Catholics in the world, Catholicism must be the true faith
  • That since everyone knows who the pope is, Catholicism must be the true faith
 
wynd said:
Specifically regarding Orthodoxy:
  • That since there are so many Catholics in the world, Catholicism must be the true faith
  • That since everyone knows who the pope is, Catholicism must be the true faith
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Thanks! I have heard the first argument a number of times, and suspected it wasn’t very persuasive.

But I wish the other posters would focus on the original question. I am not asking which arguments are valid, I am asking which are not persuasive - not persuasive to the other person. The “number of Protestant denominations” argument may be valid, but to Protestants, it appears not too persuasive. I didn’t want to start another post on “number of denominations” topic. Yes, I think it’s important, and yes, I have posted in other threads from a pro-Catholic viewpoint. For this thread, I am really seeking non-Catholic feedback about what isn’t persuasive **to you. **

Keep in mind an argument can be valid, but not persuasive; or persuasive, but not valid.
This thread is about “what do non-Catholics find as not persuasive?”. Other threads, where I also frequently rant, are about validity.
 
aidanbradypop said:
You did not read my post correctly friend. I said that within the 30k+ number are the many different Catholic Churches that are in communion with Rome. It also counts each member of the Anglican Communion as a separate denomination. It also counts Russian Orthodox as a denomination.

So when Catholics use that as a bad thing towards Protestantism, they are also including the RCC. According to the 30k theory, there are 200 something Catholic denominations.

Understand now better?
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I don’t see how I missed your point. Each of those Catholic Churches is simply a different rite within the same group, and there are only a dozen or so of those, hardly a drop in the bucket of the 30k. Doctrinally, each of these is identical, and as such would only be counted as a single Church in terms of Doctrine. My argument pertaining to the 30k+ Protestant denominations is that they have mutually exclusive doctrines while all claiming the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is an illogical position to hold. Even removing the different number of Anglican Rites and counting them under a single heading as I have done the Catholic Church, we hardly make a dent in the 30k. (I don’t think you can do this though, because I believe some of these hold contrary doctrines). The different Orthodoxies are properly counted as separate entities in that total because they are not a cohesive unit in terms of doctrine.

I’ll admit I wasn’t addressing the most common use of the 30k+ argument, that the number is indicative of the problem; instead I was trying to point out that the statement has a proper use in pointing out the divisive nature of the commonly held Protestant belief of Sola Scriptura.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
I don’t see how I missed your point. Each of those Catholic Churches is simply a different rite within the same group, and there are only a dozen or so of those, hardly a drop in the bucket of the 30k. Doctrinally, each of these is identical, and as such would only be counted as a single Church in terms of Doctrine. My argument pertaining to the 30k+ Protestant denominations is that they have mutually exclusive doctrines while all claiming the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This is an illogical position to hold. Even removing the different number of Anglican Rites and counting them under a single heading as I have done the Catholic Church, we hardly make a dent in the 30k. (I don’t think you can do this though, because I believe some of these hold contrary doctrines). The different Orthodoxies are properly counted as separate entities in that total because they are not a cohesive unit in terms of doctrine.

I’ll admit I wasn’t addressing the most common use of the 30k+ argument, that the number is indicative of the problem; instead I was trying to point out that the statement has a proper use in pointing out the divisive nature of the commonly held Protestant belief of Sola Scriptura.
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Eh.

Did you look at that site?
 
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