Least persuasive argument used by Catholics?

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Not to get overly technical, but I think very often the least convincing “arguments” are actually not quite arguments. It’s too late tonight for me to fully develop alternatives, but suffice it to say that e.g. sometimes the “arguments” are actually just a statement (or question) that makes Protestant sound bad.

In fairness to us Catholics, I also think this happens as much (more?) in the other direction. 🙂
 
One of the arguments used by Catholics that is not persuasive to me and makes me not want to listen to anything else that person has to say is when a Catholic plays the “You don’t have the fullness of the faith” card.

Whether intended or not, the message I get from that is that my faith tradition – which I love dearly and which has brought me close to God and is the foundation of everything I believe and hold dear – is somehow inferior to Catholicism or that I am a second-rate Christian because I am not Catholic.

It comes across as arrogant boasting that reminds me of this commercial from the 1960’s:

youtube.com/watch?v=Oi84maqHgxg
What? You mean that commercial isn’t as persuasive as we thought it was? Our evangelism committee had substituted the word “God” for" “dog” when we started using it 25 years ago. No wonder we never got any converts.
🙂
Seriously, thanks for the feedback. I had hoped for more posts like yours.

Actually, you gotta keep in mind that starting around 1960, Catholic apologetics practically went into hibernation for a few decades. Generations of Catholics were essentially brainwashed into relativism, that it’s somehow wrong to call any form of Christianity better than any other, or that Christianity is better than any other religion. We began getting out from under that cloud in recent years, so it’s natural that a few people may go over the top.

Trust me, those people who occasionally go over the top (Triumphalism is what it used to be called) are really closer to your faith tradition than Catholics and Protestants who walk around in a trance, “I’m ok, you’re ok, everybody’s ok, la la la”
 
So, it is based on a number game? 1,000 is bigger than 242? The Roman Catholic Church is just as divided as the Lutherans or Calvinists or Orthodox or any other religion. Whether they are “in or out”. A Roman Catholic cannot say they disagree with doctrine, but they can think it.
I think the disunity is the disunity of forming different churches, not so much of the disunity of its members. Sure, Catholics are individuals, and there are lots of things they do not agree personally. But are they still in the Catholic Church? Yes. Do they leave the Catholic Church because of their personal disagreement? No.

The fact they are still in the Catholic Church means they still believe in the fundamentals of the Church’s faith. Different spirituality? Sure.

A Protestant said they are still united despite being in different churches. I do not understand this. So I said how is that so? It is said, a Protestant can go to worship in another church, and that does not make any different to him. I said ok then. But why set up another church if it does not make any differences?

Catholics do not function that way. If a Catholic left the Church and set up another one, that new church is not a Catholic Church and therefore counted as a different church.
Just a thought, logically if Rome allowed for separation *from *Rome(minus the fear of anathema) there would be significantly more than 242 Roman Catholic denominations.
(The 242 Catholic denominations is inherently false. Thus I also have doubt on how the figure of 30,000 was being derived for the Protestant churches).

Yes, that how it worked. If a Catholic, especially a clergy, taught heresy, he would be anathematized - separated from the body of Christ and would not be a part of the Catholic Church. He had to make that decision - stayed with the Church and believed in her doctrine or be a heretic and be anathema.

Did early believers stayed firm in their faith? Yes. Our martyrs testified to that.

God bless.

Reuben
 
Isaiah45_9
We (Catholics) changed after the Great Schism and it wasn’t until the 1,400’s that the Pope was given supreme, universal, immediate, absolute jurisdiction over the whole Church.
That is another fact.
False.

Christ clearly established His own Church with His Supreme Vicar.
**All four promises to Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve].

**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Thus Christ Himself has given His authority to His Pope.

Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

Tradition shows Pope St Clement exercising his primacy in about 96, on a matter of schism in the Church of Corinth. Of the same generation as Saints Peter and Paul and when St John the Apostle was probably still living in Ephesus, Pope Clement wrote as one commanding to the Church of Corinth in Greece: “If any disobey what He (Christ) says through us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger, but we shall be innocent of this sin.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1).

Excerpted from an article by Jeffrey Mirus, PhD
Now we come to the specific question of infallibility, by which the successors of Peter continue to confirm the brethren. Since the successors of Peter have the same Petrine authority, which comes ultimately from Christ, to bind and loose, they have the authority to bind the faithful in matters pertaining to salvation – that is, in faith or morals. Now, if a Pope could bind the faithful to error, it would be a clear triumph of the powers of Hell, because the entire Church would be bound to follow the error under Christ’s own authority. Obviously, this cannot happen.

Therefore, the logic of the situation demands that the Petrine power of confirming the brethren must be an infallible power. When the Pope intends by virtue of his supreme authority to teach on a matter of faith and morals to the entire Church, he MUST be protected by the Holy Spirit from error – else the powers of hell would prevail.

This is the logic behind infallibility. But, of course, it is not based solely on logic, since it is attested in Scripture and was held by the earliest Christians and the Fathers and, indeed, by the vast majority of Christians from the beginning.

Further, it is not a new thing. It was precisely defined at Vatican I in order to clarify what was at that time a confusing issue, but this was by way of stating clearly what Christ’s teaching was, not by way of adding anything new. Vatican I therefore carefully enumerated the conditions under which the Pope was in fact infallible – the same conditions which logic demands, which Scripture suggests, and which tradition shows us in action down through the centuries.

When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called “infallible” and the teaching which he articulates is termed “irreformable”.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papac2.htm
 
What? You mean that commercial isn’t as persuasive as we thought it was? Our evangelism committee had substituted the word “God” for" “dog” when we started using it 25 years ago. No wonder we never got any converts.
🙂
Seriously, thanks for the feedback. I had hoped for more posts like yours.

Actually, you gotta keep in mind that starting around 1960, Catholic apologetics practically went into hibernation for a few decades. Generations of Catholics were essentially brainwashed into relativism, that it’s somehow wrong to call any form of Christianity better than any other, or that Christianity is better than any other religion. We began getting out from under that cloud in recent years, so it’s natural that a few people may go over the top.

Trust me, those people who occasionally go over the top (Triumphalism is what it used to be called) are really closer to your faith tradition than Catholics and Protestants who walk around in a trance, “I’m ok, you’re ok, everybody’s ok, la la la”
Hi Commenter,
I understand your point and it’s a good one. As I’ve had a chance to sleep on it, I would like to register my comment as a ‘pet peeve’ rather than a major complaint and will leave it at that. I wish my Catholic friends (and everyone else) all the best on this Lord’s Day.
 
Hi Commenter,
I understand your point and it’s a good one. As I’ve had a chance to sleep on it, I would like to register my previous comment as more of a ‘pet peeve’ rather than a major complaint and will leave it at that. I wish my Catholic friends (and everyone else) all the best on this Lord’s Day.
Sorry, I was trying to edit my previous post and accidentally created a new one. As the wizard says in the ‘Wizard of Oz’, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”. :o
 
I actually am a Catholic, and a convert who was raised Protestant, but I can chime in. I think when Catholics use the scripture about Mary at the wedding feast at Cana to justify asking for Mary’s intercession, that is a bit of a stretch. Also when Jesus is dying on the cross, and he says to John “behold your mother” speaking of Mary, I have heard Catholics argue that this passage implies Mary is the mother of the whole Church. I think that is even more of a stretch. When I was talking to my dad about it (he is a Presbyterian pastor) he described this as Jesus simply wanting to care for his mother by asking John to take her into his home and provide for her. This is literally what he is doing. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in both asking for Mary’s intercession and the motherhood of Mary over the church, but using passages of scripture as a means of weakly propping up our beliefs about the Virgin Mary is not good apologetics in my opinion.
 
One of the arguments used by Catholics that is not persuasive to me and makes me not want to listen to anything else that person has to say is when a Catholic plays the “You don’t have the fullness of the faith” card.

Whether intended or not, the message I get from that is that my faith tradition – which I love dearly and which has brought me close to God and is the foundation of everything I believe and hold dear – is somehow inferior to Catholicism or that I am a second-rate Christian because I am not Catholic.

It comes across as arrogant boasting that reminds me of this commercial from the 1960’s:

youtube.com/watch?v=Oi84maqHgxg
I am not going to step on your faith tradition, as it has obviously brought you closer to God. That being said, what it sounds like you are saying is that this argument is unconvincing because the Catholics in question are taking on an arrogant approach and that offends you (and thus does not convince you) which is understandable. Most good evangelists that I know use instead an inviting approach. The truth is, yes, I believe (as I was told) that the Catholic Church does have the fullness of truth, it has the sacraments, and it has the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the magesterium as well as scripture. If it were not so, I would have just stayed a Protestant instead of converting to Catholicism, and spared myself the trouble that I got from my family. Fortunately the people who presented that argument to me used the invitational approach instead of the arrogant one, so it caused me to look into the matter and really find out if the claim had any historical basis, any basis in scripture, any basis at all. It had all of those. So despite having been raised in a very devout Protestant family, I converted, despite my father’s objections. It was hard but it was worth it. Truth should always win in the end. What I would say is, instead of just being “turned off” by the arrogant ones, do some research, pray about it, and sincerely seek the truth.
 
I don’t understand how you can take that at all from my post…🤷

I am a former evangelical, I was baptized evangelical, I love very much what my evangelical upbringing gave me. my family is entirely baptist or evangelical, I have no doubt they will be in heaven they very much love the Lord.

That doesn’t mean that we need to accept division as norm contrary to Christs words for unity. It doesn’t mean we should not in our ecumenism be truthful.

If we believe the Catholic faith we should want the whole world to know it, and we should not settle for it being ok that people have only pieces of the truth of Christ.
Amen. I wish more Catholics would realize this.

People need to take a closer look at Vatican II. In the words of Inigo Montoya, “That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.” What Vatican II says is that people of different faith traditions share some degree of truth with the Catholic Church. For example, Muslims believe in one God, that is a truth. Jews believe in one God and also in the law of Moses and the Torah. These are truths of the old convenant. Protestants believe in the New Testament (though their interpretations differ) and believe in the divinity of Christ and the Trinity, so they share even more truth. That doesn’t mean that we are all the same or that we are all equal or even that division is OK. It simply acknowledges what we share. It also doesn’t say that everyone is going to be saved, whatever Church they are a part of. What it does say is that those who through no fault of their own never come to fully understand the fullness of truth in the Catholic Church can still be saved, depending on what they do with the truth that is made available to them, by following their conscience, by seeking God. The Catechism allows for a way of salvation for them. This does not excuse us from the task of seeking the truth and, ultimately entering into Christ’s church. It certainly does not excuse Catholics from evangelizing non-Catholics, including Protestants (though this usually is done through ecumenism, when Protestants and Catholics are brought together to work toward a common cause).
 
I don’t understand how you can take that at all from my post…🤷

I am a former evangelical, I was baptized evangelical, I love very much what my evangelical upbringing gave me. my family is entirely baptist or evangelical, I have no doubt they will be in heaven they very much love the Lord.

That doesn’t mean that we need to accept division as norm contrary to Christs words for unity. It doesn’t mean we should not in our ecumenism be truthful.

If we believe the Catholic faith we should want the whole world to know it, and we should not settle for it being ok that people have only pieces of the truth of Christ.
Jon

As a Evangelical the converted to Catholicism and then back to Evangelicalism, the card has two sides. What I mean is that telling someone that they do not have the fullness of truth is not a great way to start a conversation. 🙂

We believe we have the fullness of truth as God has revealed it.
 
I actually am a Catholic, and a convert who was raised Protestant, but I can chime in. I think when Catholics use the scripture about Mary at the wedding feast at Cana to justify asking for Mary’s intercession, that is a bit of a stretch. Also when Jesus is dying on the cross, and he says to John “behold your mother” speaking of Mary, I have heard Catholics argue that this passage implies Mary is the mother of the whole Church. I think that is even more of a stretch. When I was talking to my dad about it (he is a Presbyterian pastor) he described this as Jesus simply wanting to care for his mother by asking John to take her into his home and provide for her. This is literally what he is doing. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in both asking for Mary’s intercession and the motherhood of Mary over the church, but using passages of scripture as a means of weakly propping up our beliefs about the Virgin Mary is not good apologetics in my opinion.
I agree with you on this.
 
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CompSciGuy:
Also when Jesus is dying on the cross, and he says to John “behold your mother” speaking of Mary, I have heard Catholics argue that this passage implies Mary is the mother of the whole Church. I think that is even more of a stretch. When I was talking to my dad about it (he is a Presbyterian pastor) he described this as Jesus simply wanting to care for his mother by asking John to take her into his home and provide for her. This is literally what he is doing. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in both asking for Mary’s intercession and the motherhood of Mary over the church, but using passages of scripture as a means of weakly propping up our beliefs about the Virgin Mary is not good apologetics in my opinion.
In fact this convinced me more than anything else when I wanted to find justification for the Marian dogma.

I agree with your dad that Jesus simply wanted John to provide and care for his mother that now he was about to die.

In some ways, to me this is ironic because at once it dispels Protestants’ argument that Jesus had brothers and sisters. That time I was I was looking for something, where Catholic’s teaching on Mary had some basis and where Protestant’s teaching could be wrong.

Thus to me, if Protestants could be wrong on this, the Catholic one was the better option vis-à-vis Mary. That was how I was convinced.

Of course it is easier to go into the spiritual part once I got over the literal. We are to emulate the apostles. If John could have brought Mary home, who am I that I could not bring her home too and into my heart. It was Eureka for me. But that was all in the past though.

God bless.

Reuben
 
One of the arguments used by Catholics that is not persuasive to me and makes me not want to listen to anything else that person has to say is when a Catholic plays the “You don’t have the fullness of the faith” card.

Whether intended or not, the message I get from that is that my faith tradition – which I love dearly and which has brought me close to God and is the foundation of everything I believe and hold dear – is somehow inferior to Catholicism or that I am a second-rate Christian because I am not Catholic.

It comes across as arrogant boasting that reminds me of this commercial from the 1960’s:

youtube.com/watch?v=Oi84maqHgxg
Believe it or not, I like the fact that you brought in that commercial as a way of discussing polemics.

However, rather than relating it to “You don’t have the fullness of the faith”, I would relate it to the victory-by-repitition strategy (which both sides use … Which do you think uses it more? ;)) I’m sure we all encountered that strategy – What, you didn’t believe that we’re right the first eleven times I told you? Well how about now after the twelfth time?
 
I am interested in what are the worst arguments readers have seen from Catholics affirming Catholicism. Not professional apologists, some of the worst ones are used by amateurs like me, who reason with their uninformed gut feelings.

Here are some nominations:
“30,000 Protestant denominations”. This argument has been used 30,000 times on CAF. I don’t say it is invalid. I say it is unpersuasive. I can’t imagine some dedicated Methodist or whatever reading that, and saying “30,000 now? My gosh, I thought it was only like 10,000. But on the basis of this new data, I must reconsider unified Rome’s claims”. Yup.
You never know when an argument will strike a chord in someone’s heart or mind.

The best man at my wedding, whom I have known for 30 years, WAS convinced to return to the practice of his Catholic faith after many years of being involved in independent Pentecostal churches by this very argument when I first presented it to him a number of years ago. He says that the question of why there are so many churches continued to nag at him constantly until he finally realized that the current state of Protestantism could not be what Jesus had in mind when He promised to build one church.

Is it 30,000? It could be MORE. But open your phone book (if you still have one)…anything more than ONE church is more than Jesus promised to build. All the arguments about the definition of “church” are just excuses to justify the existing division.
 
I actually am a Catholic, and a convert who was raised Protestant, but I can chime in. I think when Catholics use the scripture about Mary at the wedding feast at Cana to justify asking for Mary’s intercession, that is a bit of a stretch. Also when Jesus is dying on the cross, and he says to John “behold your mother” speaking of Mary, I have heard Catholics argue that this passage implies Mary is the mother of the whole Church. I think that is even more of a stretch. When I was talking to my dad about it (he is a Presbyterian pastor) he described this as Jesus simply wanting to care for his mother by asking John to take her into his home and provide for her. This is literally what he is doing. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in both asking for Mary’s intercession and the motherhood of Mary over the church, but using passages of scripture as a means of weakly propping up our beliefs about the Virgin Mary is not good apologetics in my opinion.
I second your post, the wedding feast at Cana argument for Jesus doing whatever Mary tells him seems spurious to me…especially when you frame Jesus as “True God from True God”.
 
People need to take a closer look at Vatican II.
👍
I actually am a Catholic, and a convert who was raised Protestant, but I can chime in. I think when Catholics use the scripture about Mary at the wedding feast at Cana to justify asking for Mary’s intercession, that is a bit of a stretch. Also when Jesus is dying on the cross, and he says to John “behold your mother” speaking of Mary, I have heard Catholics argue that this passage implies Mary is the mother of the whole Church. I think that is even more of a stretch. When I was talking to my dad about it (he is a Presbyterian pastor) he described this as Jesus simply wanting to care for his mother by asking John to take her into his home and provide for her. This is literally what he is doing. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in both asking for Mary’s intercession and the motherhood of Mary over the church, but using passages of scripture as a means of weakly propping up our beliefs about the Virgin Mary is not good apologetics in my opinion.
As with many things, I think it’s a matter of “it depends”. Namely, I think it’s counterproductive if Catholics treat that passage like a slam-dunk, so to speak, as if nobody could possibly not be convinced by that argument. But I do think the argument has validity.
 
As with many things, I think it’s a matter of “it depends”. Namely, I think it’s counterproductive if Catholics treat that passage like a slam-dunk, so to speak, as if nobody could possibly not be convinced by that argument. But I do think the argument has validity.
Agreed.

However, this passage adds to the cumulative weight of the arguments in favor of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. At some point (different for each person), the circumstantial evidence is sufficient to bring about the conviction that Mary did not have other children. 👍
 
I actually am a Catholic, and a convert who was raised Protestant, but I can chime in. I think when Catholics use the scripture about Mary at the wedding feast at Cana to justify asking for Mary’s intercession, that is a bit of a stretch. Also when Jesus is dying on the cross, and he says to John “behold your mother” speaking of Mary, I have heard Catholics argue that this passage implies Mary is the mother of the whole Church. I think that is even more of a stretch. When I was talking to my dad about it (he is a Presbyterian pastor) he described this as Jesus simply wanting to care for his mother by asking John to take her into his home and provide for her. This is literally what he is doing. Don’t get me wrong, I believe in both asking for Mary’s intercession and the motherhood of Mary over the church, but using passages of scripture as a means of weakly propping up our beliefs about the Virgin Mary is not good apologetics in my opinion.
Thanks for the post, that is exactly the kind of (name removed by moderator)ut I am hoping for. Most posters are arguing about the validity of argument, when the thread is about what is least persuasive.
I don’t care (in this thread) how *valid *your argument is. Persuasiveness is in the mind of the non Catholic listener, not the Catholic defender.

Actually I was nervous about starting this thread that someone would respond: “The least persuasive argument used by Catholics? You yourself are, Commenter”.
 
Jon

As a Evangelical the converted to Catholicism and then back to Evangelicalism, the card has two sides. What I mean is that telling someone that they do not have the fullness of truth is not a great way to start a conversation. 🙂

We believe we have the fullness of truth as God has revealed it.
We have something in common, you and I, Aidan. We both started out as Protestants, became Catholics and are now Protestants again. For the record, I was raised as a moderate Southern Baptist, became a Catholic through the RCIA program in 1995, left the Church in 2002 in the wake of the Boston scandals, wandered through a wilderness of various and diverse faiths, beginning with the ELCA, going on to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day Saints, moving back to the Catholic faith, then on I went to the Baha’i Faith, Asatru, Islam, Shin Buddhism ( that’s where I got married) and back to Catholicism. That caused no small amount of contention between myself and the in- laws and I wanted a place to worship as a Christian and I went on to examining the Presbyterian Church in America and, after diligent study and prayer, I went on to the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod. Part of the reason for that was because the focus of the Catholic parishes in Jacksonville were somewhat different from what I saw in Arlington: they focused on collecting money and the liberalism I found being preached was shocking to me. I was very much reassured by the continuity of theology in the LCMS in both Jacksonville and Northern Virginia. Back to the basics, where the ancient liturgies were kept and loyalty to the Lutheran Confessions maintained. I’d been a Catholic for nearly eighteen years and a Baptist for twenty- one. I was really into it, too… Scott Hahn, a bunch of CDs regarding the Catholic Faith, watching EWTN religiously whenever I got the chance… Mass once a week, Penance once a month ( more, during Lent). If I were to return to the Catholic Church, all I’d need to do is make a good Confession but wait! I’d still be barred from taking the Eucharist because I hadn’t gotten an annulment and my ex- wife wouldn’t be about to give me one. I am where I need to be.
 
We have something in common, you and I, Aidan. We both started out as Protestants, became Catholics and are now Protestants again. For the record, I was raised as a moderate Southern Baptist, became a Catholic through the RCIA program in 1995, left the Church in 2002 in the wake of the Boston scandals, wandered through a wilderness of various and diverse faiths, beginning with the ELCA, going on to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- Day Saints, moving back to the Catholic faith, then on I went to the Baha’i Faith, Asatru, Islam, Shin Buddhism ( that’s where I got married) and back to Catholicism. That caused no small amount of contention between myself and the in- laws and I wanted a place to worship as a Christian and I went on to examining the Presbyterian Church in America and, after diligent study and prayer, I went on to the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod. Part of the reason for that was because the focus of the Catholic parishes in Jacksonville were somewhat different from what I saw in Arlington: they focused on collecting money and the liberalism I found being preached was shocking to me. I was very much reassured by the continuity of theology in the LCMS in both Jacksonville and Northern Virginia. Back to the basics, where the ancient liturgies were kept and loyalty to the Lutheran Confessions maintained. I’d been a Catholic for nearly eighteen years and a Baptist for twenty- one. I was really into it, too… Scott Hahn, a bunch of CDs regarding the Catholic Faith, watching EWTN religiously whenever I got the chance… Mass once a week, Penance once a month ( more, during Lent). If I were to return to the Catholic Church, all I’d need to do is make a good Confession but wait! I’d still be barred from taking the Eucharist because I hadn’t gotten an annulment and my ex- wife wouldn’t be about to give me one. I am where I need to be.
Oh my goodness. And you’ve done all that since 1995, the year when I first seriously started considering conversion to Catholicism (which I still haven’t managed to do). Some people really do have a more exciting religious life than me, I see!

Admittedly, I’ve flirted on some level with most of the things you mention (including Asatru, at least to the extent of reading a lot about it online and thinking, “it would be kind of nice to practice this religion but I couldn’t ever really believe in it and don’t want to give up on Christianity”). I just haven’t followed through.

Edwin
 
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