Leaving Home - Leaving the Church

[Iloveu2]

I am a big time major believer in God. None of us know God. We know “our ideas” about God and they are varied. I am quoting again someone’s “ideas about God” from a forum. I’m not pretending or professing that this post is the truth. Its meant as food for thought. Admin. may remove any of my posts that are unsuitable in this forum. I’m easy… I quote:

LEAVING HOME

I’m off!

I must leave the political and ethical compromises that have corrupted the faith of my Jesus.

I must leave the stifling theology, the patriarchal structures.

I must leave the enduring prejudices based on our God-given humanity, the colour of my skin, my gender or how my sexual orientation is practiced.

I must leave the mentality that encourages anyone to think that our doctrines are unchangeable.

I must leave the belief of those who insist that our sacred texts are without error.

I must leave the God of miracle and magic.

I must leave the promises of certainty, the illusion of possessing the true faith.

I must leave behind the claims of being the recipient of an unchallengeable revelation.

I must leave the neurotic religious desire to know that I am right, and to play at being God.

I must leave the claim that every other pathway to God is second-rate, that fellow Hindu searchers in India, Buddhists in China and Tibet, Muslims in the Middle East and the Jews of Israel are inadequate.

I must leave the pathway that tells me that all other directions will get me lost.

I must leave the certain claim that my Jesus is the only way to God for everyone.

I must leave the ultimate act of human folly that says it is.

I must leave the Church, my home.

I must leave behind my familiar creeds and faith-symbols.

I can no longer stay in an unlivable place.

I must move to a place where I can once again sing the Lord’s song.

I must move to where my faith-tradition can be revived and live on.

I must move to a place where children don’t tell me what I believe is unbelievable but tell me they can believe what I believe.

I must move to a place where they are not playing at moving the deck chairs on the decks of an ecclesiastical Titanic.

I can never leave the God experience.

I can never walk away from the doorway into the divine that I believe I have found in the one I call the Christ and acknowledge as “my Lord.”

I must move to dangerous and religiously threatening places.

I must move to where there is no theism, but still God.

I’m off! But to where, God only knows.

---

by Rev. David Keighley (Priest in the Church of England)

 

[FredSmith]

Those who are born again know God. If you don’t know God, then that’s a good indicator that you may need to be born again.

 

[Iloveu2]

Hi Fred

There are different interpretations of being born again. I believe the person who wrote this article was born again. He’s seeing things in a whole new light…its fantabulous! He’s let go of much of the bible which was passed down orally for many years and then written down by men with the minds of men generally speaking. Some of it is inspired by the Holy Spirit but not all of it by any means.

Can we trust oral sayings? Imagine there are 20 people here on this forum and we pass down an oral story like the writers of the Old T. and the New T. did. By the time it gets to number five the story will already have been changed. We know this from the News Media. Imagine stories being passed down for hundred’s of years or even 20, 40, 60 years. Even the New T. was written at least 60 years after Jesus died.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Those who are born again know God.

Riiiight…thats what you think.

 

[AquinasT]

I realize the original post is not necessarily the exact view of the poster, however…
If we say that God cannot be known, that truths about God cannot be stated unequivocally, that God has not reached out to reveal Himself, that Hinduism is just as right (or wrong) as Christianity or Islam or others, that God must be sought outside of any group or assembly that professes to “know” God - then is that a God that is worth believing in, can that God be “praised” for his lack of presence in the world, are you leaving “home” to find a God that does not want to be found, or that cannot be found because he has not revealed himself, or (worse yet) does not exist?
Are you then creating a God in YOUR own image - a God that wants you to be or do whatever you desire without consequence and live without boundaries or without “right” and wrong"? You have then defined God in your own terms. Is that not what you accuse the world religions of doing as well - creating a God of their own design? The difference, of course, being that (at least from a Judeo-Christian perspective) we have a source of “revelation” that God has given us as a glimpse of His divine will. Certainly this requires FAITH to believe in revelation. But, on the other hand, walking away from revelation, walking away from a God who loves and reaches out to us and reveals himself in concrete ways, is a far greater leap of faith. A God who is only a figment of your own imagination and not a shared experience with a community of faith is a God that may disappoint when you look around and see that you are the only one singing his praises. Take your own advice, and be careful designing your own God.
Thomas

 

[water]

Even the New T. was written at least 60 years after Jesus died.

That is correct, but those who the NT were those who followed others who knew Jesus personnally.

Anyhow, whatever decision you make, I hope that you take time and pray about it. You might have taken your time already, but I believe that those who search God truly, he will find the truth.

God loves the humble.

 

[FredSmith]

Riiiight…thats what you think.

That’s what the Bible says. That’s what our experience tells us.

 

[ralphinal]

Hi Fred

There are different interpretations of being born again. I believe the person who wrote this article was born again. He’s seeing things in a whole new light…its fantabulous! He’s let go of much of the bible which was passed down orally for many years and then written down by men with the minds of men generally speaking. Some of it is inspired by the Holy Spirit but not all of it by any means.

Can we trust oral sayings? Imagine there are 20 people here on this forum and we pass down an oral story like the writers of the Old T. and the New T. did. By the time it gets to number five the story will already have been changed. We know this from the News Media. Imagine stories being passed down for hundred’s of years or even 20, 40, 60 years. Even the New T. was written at least 60 years after Jesus died.

Letting go of parts of the Bible is problematic for me. I cannot see how a Christian, in good faith, can. Perhaps this new faith is not Christianity?

Yes, we can trust the oral sayings. There are two reasons: one spiritual, one physical. Spiritually, why should we not think that the Holy Spirit prevented error from entering the faith? Is it beyond God’s power? Physically, the oral traditions were handed down in an almost bardic way. If you ever study the bardic traditon of storytelling, the story does not change. It is practiced as an apprentice until it is known and then it is recited to others. It is a very interesting topic.

 

[AgnosTheist]

That is correct, but those who the NT were those who followed others who knew Jesus personnally.

thats an assumption, not a fact.

 

[AgnosTheist]

That’s what the Bible says. That’s what our experience tells us.

Ive been there and I know its only self induced.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Fred

There are different interpretations of being born again. I believe the person who wrote this article was born again. He’s seeing things in a whole new light…its fantabulous! He’s let go of much of the bible which was passed down orally for many years and then written down by men with the minds of men generally speaking. Some of it is inspired by the Holy Spirit but not all of it by any means.

Can we trust oral sayings? Imagine there are 20 people here on this forum and we pass down an oral story like the writers of the Old T. and the New T. did. By the time it gets to number five the story will already have been changed. We know this from the News Media. Imagine stories being passed down for hundred’s of years or even 20, 40, 60 years. Even the New T. was written at least 60 years after Jesus died.

Only some parts - Pauls letters at least were all written within 30 years of Christ dying.

And I know if you get a bunch of eyewitnesses to an event together they’re all going to say different things. If you talk to each one separately without them talking to each other they may say contradictory things.

But the evangelists didn’t work in a vacuum, nor did any of 'em rely on just one source for their information. There were FIVE HUNDRED people to whom He appeared after His resurrection - all in constant communication with each other, at least in the early years before Christianity spread outside Israel. Between them I think they (and the evangelists) got the story pretty straight.

But I have to reflect the concerns of the earlier poster - if you are seeking a God who is just as simpatico with Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs as with Christian, then you’re seeking a relativist God who is whoever the believer wants Him to be.

In other words a God of the believer’s fantasy and not one who really exists and reveal truth, who is who He is and none other.

 

[Iloveu2]

Thanks for all the wonderful replies. My opening post is an article written by Rev. Keighley, not by myself. I enjoy reading people’s opinions and ideas about God very much. I didn’t come here to argue about anything. All of the world’s great religions are saying: “I am right and you are wrong”. How can we possibly know which one is the truth and is there such a thing as absolute truth? Wouldn’t it be kind if we could consider that there is some truth in all of them and the absolute truth in none of them? God certainly loves variety. We see it in all of creation. Why not in religion?

I guess I would classify myself as some kind of Christian in that Jesus has always been tops in my books and I hope to see Jesus when I die. I’ve always lived for Jesus. I believe in the Ten Commandments and when I break them which I do all the time I have to ask forgiveness for my sins.

There was more I wished to say in response to the replies but I have surprise company at the moment and I have to run. I’ll be back…

 

[Iloveu2]

AquinasT

A quick note. Your post is great. It has meat in it. I have to study it and get back. Thanks so much for taking the time.

 

[justinthemartyr]

Riiiight…thats what you think.

Here is what I know…

Before knowing Jesus I was homosexual

Before knowing Jesus I was an alcoholic and could not stop drinking

Before knowing Jesus I was a drug addict, sex addict, thief and did almost two years in jail.

Before knowing Jesus I tried everything I could to stop everything that haunted me, things previously mentioned.

After coming to know Jesus personally the desire to be homosexual and drink and drug and steal left me.

After knowing Jesus there was a weight of guilt, sorrow and pain lifted from my mind, soul and conscience.

After knowing Jesus everything that previously drove me as an individual was immediately reversed in the blink of an eye!

AMAZING what happens to thos ewho really come to know Jesus Christ and are obedient to his will for them!

I am living proof.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here is what I know…

Before knowing Jesus I was homosexual

Before knowing Jesus I was an alcoholic and could not stop drinking

Before knowing Jesus I was a drug addict, sex addict, thief and did almost two years in jail.

Before knowing Jesus I tried everything I could to stop everything that haunted me, things previously mentioned.

After coming to know Jesus personally the desire to be homosexual and drink and drug and steal left me.

After knowing Jesus there was a weight of guilt, sorrow and pain lifted from my mind, soul and conscience.

After knowing Jesus everything that previously drove me as an individual was immediately reversed in the blink of an eye!

AMAZING what happens to those who really come to know Jesus Christ and are obedient to his will for them!

I am living proof.

 

[blessedtoo]

Here is what I know…

Before knowing Jesus I was homosexual

Before knowing Jesus I was an alcoholic and could not stop drinking

Before knowing Jesus I was a drug addict, sex addict, thief and did almost two years in jail.

Before knowing Jesus I tried everything I could to stop everything that haunted me, things previously mentioned.

After coming to know Jesus personally the desire to be homosexual and drink and drug and steal left me.

After knowing Jesus there was a weight of guilt, sorrow and pain lifted from my mind, soul and conscience.

After knowing Jesus everything that previously drove me as an individual was immediately reversed in the blink of an eye!

AMAZING what happens to thos ewho really come to know Jesus Christ and are obedient to his will for them!

I am living proof.

Now that’s a testimony!

 

[fix]

LEAVING HOME

I’m off!

I must leave the political and ethical compromises that have corrupted the faith of my Jesus.

I must leave the stifling theology, the patriarchal structures.

I must leave the enduring prejudices based on our God-given humanity, the colour of my skin, my gender or how my sexual orientation is practiced.

I must leave the mentality that encourages anyone to think that our doctrines are unchangeable.

I must leave the belief of those who insist that our sacred texts are without error.

I must leave the God of miracle and magic.

I must leave the promises of certainty, the illusion of possessing the true faith.

I must leave behind the claims of being the recipient of an unchallengeable revelation.

I must leave the neurotic religious desire to know that I am right, and to play at being God.

I must leave the claim that every other pathway to God is second-rate, that fellow Hindu searchers in India, Buddhists in China and Tibet, Muslims in the Middle East and the Jews of Israel are inadequate.

I must leave the pathway that tells me that all other directions will get me lost.

I must leave the certain claim that my Jesus is the only way to God for everyone.

I must leave the ultimate act of human folly that says it is.

I must leave the Church, my home.

I must leave behind my familiar creeds and faith-symbols.

I can no longer stay in an unlivable place.

I must move to a place where I can once again sing the Lord’s song.

I must move to where my faith-tradition can be revived and live on.

I must move to a place where children don’t tell me what I believe is unbelievable but tell me they can believe what I believe.

I must move to a place where they are not playing at moving the deck chairs on the decks of an ecclesiastical Titanic.

I can never leave the God experience.

I can never walk away from the doorway into the divine that I believe I have found in the one I call the Christ and acknowledge as “my Lord.”

I must move to dangerous and religiously threatening places.

I must move to where there is no theism, but still God.

I’m off! But to where, God only knows.

---

by Rev. David Keighley (Priest in the Church of England)

What is truth?

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Thanks for all the wonderful replies. My opening post is an article written by Rev. Keighley, not by myself. I enjoy reading people’s opinions and ideas about God very much. I didn’t come here to argue about anything.

All of the world’s great religions are saying: “I am right and you are wrong”. How can we possibly know which one is the truth and is there such a thing as absolute truth?

Who is the “you” in the statement attributed by you to “all the world’s great religions” above, which says, “I am right and you are wrong”?

All “religion-like groups” suggest that “God” is either “a ‘truth’ in comfort” or “a comfort in truth”. Those who derive “God as a ‘truth’” from comfort, meaning “where there is comfort there is ‘God’!”, as opposed to those who derive comfort from the “truth from God”, meaning “where there is God there is comfort”, are less “from God” and representative of absolute truth.

The existence of “absolute truth” is not acceptable to the human mind unless it is proven to it “from inside”. This “proof” is not perceivable unless one accepts that it is possible and does **WORK **to demonstrate that one actually believes that it is possible. Once the ground-**work **is laid to allow absolute truth to confirm itself, only then will that confirmation appear, and convict one in knowledge in it’s existence.

Wouldn’t it be kind if we could consider that there is some truth in all of them and the absolute truth in none of them?

The Church tells us that there is some truth in all religions, including that religion which some call “natural law” even if not by those actual words (ie “materialists” and so-called “atheists”), and that NO religion can completely explain in human terms the truth that IS in them, but that only one claims absolute truth is in Her and constantly being explored to learn it’s depths, and that is the Church (Catholic).

It is most kind that all people be allowed to choose where they get truth from **and **are continually offered access to the singular source of the fullness of the truth.

Only by denying that truth exists as truth, which makes it “absolute”, can one claim that all sources of that “not-quite-truth” which some call “truth” (meaning “approximate truth”) are equal, or that there is no ONE SOURCE which MUST exist as truth is ONE THING (or being in Three Persons as known by the “most wise” in this matter).

God certainly loves variety. We see it in all of creation. Why not in religion?

There is infinite opportunity for variety within the one Church, just as there is infinite variety within the one creation.

When you used the word “creation” above, you stated a basic absolute truth, which demands that we realise our human “variety” within **the **singular “creation” given to us for displaying that variety.

I guess I would classify myself as some kind of Christian in that Jesus has always been tops in my books and I hope to see Jesus when I die. I’ve always lived for Jesus. I believe in the Ten Commandments and when I break them which I do all the time I have to ask forgiveness for my sins.

There was more I wished to say in response to the replies but I have surprise company at the moment and I have to run. I’ll be back…

You’re in the right place to discover Christ Jesus in more detail!

Enjoy!

 

[Iloveu2]

Thank you all so much for your replies. I’m sorry I don’t have time to respond to the last post in particular. It is well written. This forum is so huge and so magnificent and so time consuming. Actually I’d forgotten about this thread. I had better pay attention to what I’m doing. I do have sickness in the family at the present time and I’m not concentrating too well. Sorry.