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SteveVH
Guest
:tiphat:
- Status
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XuDan
Guest
My experience was slightly different. Doubting doctrine up to a certain point was strongly encouraged. But if your doubted past the SMA (standard Mormon answers) then the questions about the testimony came. An example (disclaimer: this is an example to illustrate a point to create an off topic debate, please do not use this example as a reason to turn this into a debate that is off topic) of this is: why is there no more prophecy, revelation, and instruction from God, and if there is, why are the D&C not expanded upon? A typical SMA would be to claim that the talks by the prophets given at general conference would be the modern equivalent and it would not be economically feasible to update the D&C twice yearly causing member to have to buy new scripture twice a year. That is a very common answer I would get. The problem is, the answer doesn’t hold water, the General conference talks resemble in no way the content and “authoritativeness” of the D&C. I began to reject this answer and would continue my inquiry again, and explaining to whoever would give me this answer be it a Elders Quorum President, Bishop, Stake President. I even wrote General Authorities and eventually the first presidency when I received no answer other than that these things do happen but they were not pertinent to the church at this time or to sacred to talk about in such a casual fashion. I was branded a “problem” and suddenly the missionaries and my home teacher were doing regular unscheduled “drop by” visits. When people would talk to me about it and try to reassure me that the SMA was correct, and after you would explain my position as to why I can’t accept that even after prayerful research, they would just frown and our relationship would be forever altered for the negative. It’s unfortunate really.
Anyways, that is just one example, but it speaks to the behavior regarding doubts. They are highly encouraged until the formula answers aren’t good enough. This behavior towards doubts only caused more doubts for me. Fortunately for me, and it took me a while to work things out for myself as a lot of emotions were involved when I finally made the decision to leave, the issue was not regarding my faith in Christ, or my "testimony"of His supremacy. No, my issue was with the organization, it’s leaders, and their integrity. I believe this is why I did not struggle with Atheism or Agnosticism upon leaving. Instead my years away from religion had more to do with distrust towards religious organizations (transference from my LDS experience) in general. That is why when I first started looking for a church again, I started with highly decentralized denominations.
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arthra
Guest
Techno wrote:
And yet, the Baha’i World Council is a group of 19 men, and only men, whose collective decisions are deemed to be the will of God, a painfully obvious throwback to Islamic courts. Nobody was ever able to give me a good reason why women weren’t allowed on the council, but were supposedly equal.
The other issue that just never sat right with me was their stance on homosexuality, which basically boils down to, “It’s okay if you’re gay, but just, you know, don’t be gay.” It felt disingenuous of them to pretend to be morally superior to other religions in their tolerance for homosexuality, when in reality they were just as damning of it as anyone else.
Techno… Your choices are your own …but if you’re on a public Forum it might be best to get your information correct…
You were a Baha’i for about a year… and probably don’t recall that there are nine members of the Universal House of Justice that are elected by the world Baha’i community every five years… Yes they are men…as stipulated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas of Baha’u’llah and per the commentary of Abdul-Baha His Son. But what you may have overlooked is that this did not come about because of male chauvenism or a belief in male superiority… A lot of women have also held high rant in the Faith… such as Bahiyyih Khanum and Ruhiyyih Khanum the Secretary of Shoghi Effendi and others.
As to homosexuality the Faith does not endorse it as a lifestyle and marriage is between a man and a woman… Someone having homosexual tendencies can be a Baha’i as long as they have the situation under control. They are not “damned” as you suggest.
And yet, the Baha’i World Council is a group of 19 men, and only men, whose collective decisions are deemed to be the will of God, a painfully obvious throwback to Islamic courts. Nobody was ever able to give me a good reason why women weren’t allowed on the council, but were supposedly equal.
The other issue that just never sat right with me was their stance on homosexuality, which basically boils down to, “It’s okay if you’re gay, but just, you know, don’t be gay.” It felt disingenuous of them to pretend to be morally superior to other religions in their tolerance for homosexuality, when in reality they were just as damning of it as anyone else.
Techno… Your choices are your own …but if you’re on a public Forum it might be best to get your information correct…
You were a Baha’i for about a year… and probably don’t recall that there are nine members of the Universal House of Justice that are elected by the world Baha’i community every five years… Yes they are men…as stipulated in the Kitab-i-Aqdas of Baha’u’llah and per the commentary of Abdul-Baha His Son. But what you may have overlooked is that this did not come about because of male chauvenism or a belief in male superiority… A lot of women have also held high rant in the Faith… such as Bahiyyih Khanum and Ruhiyyih Khanum the Secretary of Shoghi Effendi and others.
As to homosexuality the Faith does not endorse it as a lifestyle and marriage is between a man and a woman… Someone having homosexual tendencies can be a Baha’i as long as they have the situation under control. They are not “damned” as you suggest.
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CeelosDeznos
Guest
I noticed this alarming trend among many ex-LDS and ex-JWs. I attribute it to the “all-eggs-in-one-basket” syndrome my aunt Jennie talked about once.
For many LDS and JWs the only source of truth is the one religion they belong to. If they discover it is wrong there is therefore nothing left in the hearts and minds of many of these.
You see they may not believe their religion is the true one anymore, but they may still believe their past religious teachings that all other faiths are false. I’ve talked with many an ex-LDS and exJW and some of these are virtually the same judgmental people they were while in their previous religion.
But instead of preaching the Book of Mormon or the Watchtower they preach atheism with the exact same zeal, some of these using the same old arguments their former religion taught them about Catholics and Hindus and Jews, etc. it is as if some people need a cause to believe in and just exchange the brand of religion for atheism.
Not all are like this, okay? Some become atheist because they can’t trust any religion anymore, period. After you’ve been told that there is only one religion that is right and you are in it and then you give everything you have and you are to it only to find out its all a lie…well, any religion is a hard sell afterwards. And they don’t care to advertise their atheism or wear it on their sleeves like the others might do.
People’s faith is often broken not from outside sources but from within. Beleve me that Mormons and Witnesses are generally not discouraged by outside debaters and negative talk about them. They are strengthened because they see the world as filled with unbelievers and any rejection from us makes them feel they are on the right path. Most of these leave because of the failure of their respective religions to deliver.
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Matthew_Light
Guest
Arthra,
Actually, pretty sureTechno didn’t write that stuff, it was quoted from another website (without quotation marks though).
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XuDan
Guest
Yup, if you click the link at the bottom of the block of text you’ll see that everything except the first three words in the post are found on that reddit post.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I’m not sure how you can state that it didn’t come about because of male chauvinism or a belief in male superiority. Maybe it did maybe it didn’t but in order to know you would have to know the the thoughts and reasoning of others.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
They may still believe it because they spend a great deal of time teaching it to members of other faiths. I think part of why is the way members are supposed to actively proselytize any and all non-members they encounter and in order to proselytize other Christians they have to tell them what is wrong with their current religion.
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Matthew_Light
Guest
I’d prefer we keep this thread on topic and if some want to discuss criticisms and defenses of the Baha’i Faith we start another thread on that.
It’s really easy for threads to end up going all over the place but probably best to organize discussions under titles that are relevant instead of too much digression.
Thanks!
It’s really easy for threads to end up going all over the place but probably best to organize discussions under titles that are relevant instead of too much digression.
Thanks!
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Matthew_Light
Guest
I’ve seen that a lot, from many people of many different religions, sometimes even my own. I think it is a big mistake to operate from that perspective, and try to sell your beliefs by running down others.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
There is absolutely no way to avoid it when trying to persuade another Christian to Mormonism. Mormonism is founded on other Christian religions being false at best, abominations at worst.I’ve seen that a lot, from many people of many different religions, sometimes even my own. I think it is a big mistake to operate from that perspective, and try to sell your beliefs by running down others.
I’ve seen it from LDS, JW’s SDA’s and Evangelicals. Evangelical experience was hands down the worst and wound up with my dad dragging me down to file a police report and him contacting every newspaper in the area. At my FIL’s funeral my BIL"s evangelical church fellows were there pushing their church on all the members of my DH’s family but what incensed the rest of the family was the barrage of people asking my MIL “do you think he will be in heaven just because he’s Catholic, you’re wrong you know, you should visit our church”.
JW’s infuriate me by basically saying they have a right to proselytize me on my own property and I have to participate, and that my large and clearly posted no soliciting sign has no meaning. JW’s seem to think that because towns and subdivisions can’t forbid or heavily regulate their efforts that property owners have no rights at all. That’s why I call the police on any proselytizers who even hint that I have no right to control who is allowed on my property.
The Mormon missionaries who have knocked on my door have always gone with the “don’t you love your family, don’t you want to be with them for eternity?” when I have politely said no thanks I’m not interested. Most of the pairs have been all big eyed and passive aggressive with their spiel but one locally infamous pair was just downright belligerent about the whole thing.
One thing going for the JW’s is that they have never been sneaky and deceptive when it comes to proselytizing other peoples children. I or members of my family have been through such underhanded treatment with both Evangelicals (me) and Mormons (family members). What I find most appalling about this is how members of both churches find it to be acceptable behavior since, well you joined our church as a result of the sneaky behavior. I’ve seen Evangelicals and Mormons who find it acceptable for a 15 or 16 year old to lie to their parents about where they are going if it’s is to an event/activity/service in their respective church. How in the world is that right???
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iepuras
Guest
As an ex-Mormon, I see it more as trying to get the truth out about Mormonism. Don’t you think truth is important?
J. Reuben Clark was an apostle and member of the First Presidency during the 1930’s through the 1950’s. He once said, “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
The truth is harming Mormonism. You see the changing doctrines regarding people of African descent as a good thing. I am glad the LDS is attempting to put their official racist beliefs and policies behind them. However, if they did have the truth, they never would have had those doctrines and policies to begin with.
Have you read the recent essay on race and the priesthood?
lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
The problem lies with the truth claims of the LDS church itself. They claim to have prophets and apostles who speak for the Lord. During the 19th and early 20th centuries, LDS prophets and apostles clearly stated why the priesthood was restricted based on race. It was certainly racist but they presented those reasons as doctrine, the word of th Lord, not theories. Now in the 21st century, an essay with an anonymous author on the LDS website claims that all these “doctrines” are now simply theories and we’re reflective of the racist American culture.
This essay, along with some of the other essays, undermines the claims of the LDS church as the mouthpiece of God. So what other “doctrines” of today are going to become theories in 50 years. The actions of the LDS church itself are causing the faith crisis.
So I guess, Truth = anti-Mormon?
The thing is that it is very difficult for an outside influence to cause a Mormon to have a crisis of faith. The crisis results from inconsistent and illogical doctrines and problematic history. It comes from Mormonism itself. The cognitive dissonance builds over time until the mental shelf finally falls.
When I was LDS, nothing from the outside could cause me to leave. I grew up in Texas and had to deal with the Evangelicals. There is a reason why all my friends were either Catholic or not religious. When I left the LDS church, my policy has been to only discuss my reasons with Mormons who ask. So far, none have asked.
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Janderich
Guest
I agree with you. Frankly, I have become more content over time with allowing others to believe and do as they will. This doesn’t mean I don’t want to give them some of the truth’s I’ve found but I feel to do it if, and only when, they are in a place to hear it. I also think I have felt more willing to hear truth no matter what the source.
We have a scripture in the BoM that speaks directly to this point and causes me pause often when I think of contention. It is Christ speaking and he says:
Now most here will of course disagree that Jesus actually said such words, but forget that for a minute and ask yourself if you agree with the content of the message. I think perhaps even if we are in the “right” it is better to avoid the spirit of contention. I’m afraid that often rather then our words, a feeling of anger, or disagreement, is passed to the other person.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
You are correct. I see this as the words of Joseph Smith and his close associates, who were seeking to prevent people from speaking against them. It is a false teaching, insomuch that it is used to shield a false prophet from being called out, as a false prophet. In other words, it is a means to working under deception and lies. Jesus always teaches us to walk in the light. Let our yes be a yes and our no be a no. There is no call by Jesus to keep ourselves quiet in the face of deception, pretending it doesn’t exist, in order that the deceivers can further their goals.
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Kevin_Keith
Guest
This goes for a good many ex-members of the Church of Christ as well. Once the “truth” of the “one true church” has been shattered, where else is there to go? This was a great post.
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kozlosap
Guest
INDEED - my friend who is ex-LDS freely admits to this feeling.
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Marie5890
Guest
Just to re-emphasize to others who may not understand that dynamics of how Mormonism, in and of itself, causes it’s own crisis of faith for it’s people. Like iepuras says, it’s not outside forces. LDS doctrine and how it is playing out is basically a house of cards. It cannot withstand facts and truth. It causes it’s own crisis.
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XuDan
Guest
Very true - I can say that external resistance and challenges only galvanized me. Also coupled with the continual pathos used at the ward level, membership just feels that they are only attacked and criticized because they are exposing the truth. That any and all negative reactions and pressures in response to that are just a natural response to be expected. Death throes of a “false” position as I have so frequently heard it termed.
It is my experience and opinion that the cause for the increase on inactivity and “loss of testimony in the Church” is internal and has nothing to do with external influences. The largest threat to the LDS belief structure is their own doctrines, dogmas, traditions and how their leadership operates in regards to these things.
That said, just because they are their only real threat, does not give anyone the right to go out of their way “disprove” or “refute” their beliefs. By going out of one’s way I mean picking the fight. The problem is, the fight will inevitably come to you as the culture of member missionaries are “called” to preach to everyone. So, eventually someone will bring it up and then it is fair game. Which is why I don’t feel bad for LDS members who open the door. I do feel bad for the ones that don’t proselytize and still get taken to task for their beliefs.
It is my experience and opinion that the cause for the increase on inactivity and “loss of testimony in the Church” is internal and has nothing to do with external influences. The largest threat to the LDS belief structure is their own doctrines, dogmas, traditions and how their leadership operates in regards to these things.
That said, just because they are their only real threat, does not give anyone the right to go out of their way “disprove” or “refute” their beliefs. By going out of one’s way I mean picking the fight. The problem is, the fight will inevitably come to you as the culture of member missionaries are “called” to preach to everyone. So, eventually someone will bring it up and then it is fair game. Which is why I don’t feel bad for LDS members who open the door. I do feel bad for the ones that don’t proselytize and still get taken to task for their beliefs.
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TheIrishman
Guest
I will admit, once I left the LDS church i thought i would go straight into Catholicism. It turned out that because my faith was so betrayed it became difficult for me to believe in anything. I questioned every little thing and looked for excuses to not believe. My trust has been broken but it’s slowly coming back. What helped me out was not looking for a specific religion to trust in but to find trust in God again. Then once I find my faith in God again, i’m hoping believing in doctrines will become easier again. It’s not a fun journey but it’s necessary.
Cheers,
The Irishman
Cheers,
The Irishman
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LivingWaters7
Guest
I completely understand. I felt the same way, and did not automatically revert to Catholicism once I realized that Mormonism wasn’t what it claimed to be. It was a process. I also started with the basics, and not necessarily looking for a specific religion. Heck I even considered Islam. But once I began to trust in God, I started to realize that it was that concept of trusting in God that led me to realize that a total apostasy of Christ’s Church was impossible, and then I realized that it was the Catholic Church that was there through everything in history, since Jesus Christ established it 2000 years ago. All the beliefs and practices of that Church are still here, never lost, never needing to be restored. I do hope that one day you too will come to that realization, whenever it comes.
Keep praying!
- Status